End Priveleged Class, End Unions.

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Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
So be it. At least we would've painfully rooted out the bullet, rather than negligently (and very expensively) applying a bandaid to only the wound which would continue to fester and bleed.

If all countries engage in subsidizing and bailout out their car companies, then it's no wonder car prices continue to rise.

I'm not sure how you can't say Toyota being protected by the Japanese government for decades wasn't a bad thing in the long run for the Japanese people. Free trade economists in Japan during that time were urging the Japanese government to adopt the theory of comparative advantage, let their auto industry fail, and trade in what they had a comparative advantage in: producing material like silk. That would have been a calamity for them.
 

FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
4,669
266
126
Bull-pizzle.

If people want to form unions, let no government deny them.

Workers' rights are human rights.

But people shouldn't be REQUIRED to join a union to hold a certain job either. Or a union member shouldn't be forced to pay dues that go to causes they personally don't support. Non union workers should have the same rights to bid on jobs as union workers. Teachers should not get tenure. Rewards at work should be based on performance, not seniority. People shouldn't be allowed to retire in their 50s and have the taxpayers subsidize the next 20-30 years of their lives. Pensions at many companies (for salaried people) are structured so that if you retire before 65, you get screwed. Many public union members can retire with full pension/bennies after 30 years. Why should I have to work till I'm in my late 60s to support people who can retire in their 50s?
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
I'm not sure how you can't say Toyota being protected by the Japanese government for decades wasn't a bad thing in the long run for the Japanese people. Free trade economists in Japan during that time were urging the Japanese government to adopt the theory of comparative advantage, let their auto industry fail, and trade in what they had a comparative advantage in: producing material like silk. That would have been a calamity for them.

For fledgling industries and countries I don't condemn protectionism. But GM, who was for a very long time the largest company in the world, should've been allowed to declare bankruptcy, which they did anyway.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
For fledgling industries and countries I don't condemn protectionism. But GM, who was for a very long time the largest company in the world, should've been allowed to declare bankruptcy, which they did anyway.

We're in the mess that we're in because we let our industrial base dissolve in this country. At least you admit that protectionism can work in growing countries though.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
GM did not build the cars people wanted. That is and was a management decision.
Since GM is contesting with Toyota and Volkswagen for the world's largest manufacturer of automobiles and is currently #2 in the world, I fail to see how GM is not building the cars people want. While the American public is currently required to fund GM, we are not required to buy its products, so we must want them.

On the other hand, I have such no trouble seeing the problem with an automobile manufacturer spending more on health care than on steel. That is in large part due to unions, although certainly management also failed here in projecting future growth versus expenses.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
We're in the mess that we're in because we let our industrial base dissolve in this country. At least you admit that protectionism can work in growing countries though.
As the world's largest consumer market and source of a major fraction of profits for companies worldwide (e.g. roughly half of all automobile profits if memory serves), protectionism should work much better for the USA than for fledgling countries. What import tariff would you put up with to sell into the USA versus, say, South Korea or Vietnam or Argentina? The only market currently of equivalent importance would be the EU, with which we should be able to compete reasonably well without protections. Exempt the EU and a few other countries of relatively equal wealth or strategic importance - Canada, Australia, Japan, maybe South Korea and Mexico - and then tailor import tariffs to each country individually.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
We're in the mess that we're in because we let our industrial base dissolve in this country. At least you admit that protectionism can work in growing countries though.

Industrial base is going to dissolve when we're competing with developing countries with cheaper labor. I don't see anyway out of that. Companies are faced with the choice of paying more for labor and becoming uncompetitive, or outsourcing for cheaper labor to stay in business. That's my basic understanding of it.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Industrial base is going to dissolve when we're competing with developing countries with cheaper labor. I don't see anyway out of that. Companies are faced with the choice of paying more for labor and becoming uncompetitive, or outsourcing for cheaper labor to stay in business. That's my basic understanding of it.

Germany proved that to be bullshit:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2144515
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
As the world's largest consumer market and source of a major fraction of profits for companies worldwide (e.g. roughly half of all automobile profits if memory serves), protectionism should work much better for the USA than for fledgling countries. What import tariff would you put up with to sell into the USA versus, say, South Korea or Vietnam or Argentina? The only market currently of equivalent importance would be the EU, with which we should be able to compete reasonably well without protections. Exempt the EU and a few other countries of relatively equal wealth or strategic importance - Canada, Australia, Japan, maybe South Korea and Mexico - and then tailor import tariffs to each country individually.

Then lets do it.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
I don't think Germany's success disproves the basic rule that people prefer to pay $5.00 for a sandwich instead of $6.00 for the same sandwich.

That's because Germans don't think they way Americans do:

There is no particularly special technology needed to make a chainsaw. It's really just plastic and metal parts screwed together with old-fashioned nuts and bolts. The Chinese already make chainsaws. But that hasn't stopped German power-tool manufacturer Stihl from selling its made-in-Germany chainsaws around the world, even though its top-end models are among the priciest on the market. In fact, 86% of the products Stihl makes in its high-cost German factories are exported. How Stihl manages that says a lot about the impact a revived German economy is having on Europe and the world — both good and bad.
The family-owned firm, based near Stuttgart in Germany's south, could shift more production to its lower-wage factories in China and Brazil, but management is committed to manufacturing many of its most advanced products at home. In contrast to the American habit of outsourcing as much as possible, about half the parts in a German-made chainsaw — from the chain to the crankshaft — are produced in Stihl factories, and many of them are made in Germany. And instead of laying off staff during the Great Recession, as so many U.S. firms did, Stihl locked in highly trained talent by offering full-time workers an employment guarantee until 2015. Stihl even added specialists to its product-development team during the downturn. The result is high-quality products that command price tags big enough — professional Stihl chainsaws cost as much as $2,300 in Germany — to make manufacturing profitable even with the nation's high wages. U.S. companies "don't try hard enough to keep production inside the country," says Stihl chairman Bertram Kandziora.
(Watch TIME's video "Global Business Tips: Germany.")
Stihl defines how Germany resurrected its economy — and how the U.S. might too. The small, often family-owned enterprises that make up the backbone of German manufacturing have historically specialized in the unsexy side of the industrial spectrum: not smart phones or iPads but machinery and other heavy equipment, metal bashing infused with sound technology and disciplined engineering. But in recent years, German firms, aided by farsighted government reforms, have turned that into an art form, forging the most competitive industrial sector of any advanced economy. The proof is a boom in exports, which jumped 18.5% in 2010, that is the envy of the developed world.


Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2053595,00.html#ixzz1FTYX1na1

That surge has carried Germany out of the Great Recession more quickly than most major industrialized countries. GDP rose 3.6% in 2010, compared with 2.9% in the U.S. While joblessness in the U.S. and much of Europe has spiked to levels not seen in decades, unemployment in Germany has declined during the crisis, to an estimated 6.9% in 2010 from 8.6% in 2007, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). "Germany is in a very competitive position today, more than ever," proclaims Stéphane Garelli, director of the World Competitiveness Center at the Swiss business school IMD

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2053595,00.html#ixzz1FTYgAlMU

Hmmm, yes, it could never be profitable for a rich nation to export to a developing one, OH FUCKING WAIT:

German exports to China surged 45% in the first 10 months of 2010. In fact, Germany is the only major industrialized country other than Japan in which exports are playing a significantly larger role in the economy — 41% of GDP in 2009, from 33% in 2000.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2053595,00.html#ixzz1FTYvMvT0

Send all free trade morons to GITMO and lets start rebuilding this nation.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
That's because Germans don't think they way Americans do:





Hmmm, yes, it could never be profitable for a rich nation to export to a developing one, OH FUCKING WAIT:



Send all free trade morons to GITMO and lets start rebuilding this nation.

If you saw a Stihl chainsaw on sale for $2300 at one store, and a Stihl chainsaw at another store for $2100, which would you buy?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
If you saw a Stihl chainsaw on sale for $2300 at one store, and a Stihl chainsaw at another store for $2100, which would you buy?

That has to be the worst analogy ever. Why don't you ask why a company/country producing 'overpriced' goods is prospering with exports to rich and poor countries alike? Shouldn't the fact that their goods are so expensive mean that they should get their asses kicked by cheaper alternatives? After all, China produces Chainsaws too.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
As the world's largest consumer market and source of a major fraction of profits for companies worldwide (e.g. roughly half of all automobile profits if memory serves), protectionism should work much better for the USA than for fledgling countries. What import tariff would you put up with to sell into the USA versus, say, South Korea or Vietnam or Argentina? The only market currently of equivalent importance would be the EU, with which we should be able to compete reasonably well without protections. Exempt the EU and a few other countries of relatively equal wealth or strategic importance - Canada, Australia, Japan, maybe South Korea and Mexico - and then tailor import tariffs to each country individually.

I have advocated this exact idea on here before.

A retrograde import tax on all things imported from 3rd world and developing nations to prevent exploiting their labor pool at slave wages.

Establish a formula for calculating a "living wage" in every nation on earth.

When something is imported from said nation, check the wages paid by the company vs the established living wage. Tax the shortfall.

This will stop the China and India problems in their tracks, and prevent it from moving to other impoverished nations.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
That has to be the worst analogy ever. Why don't you ask why a company/country producing 'overpriced' goods is prospering with exports to rich and poor countries alike? Shouldn't the fact that their goods are so expensive mean that they should get their asses kicked by cheaper alternatives? After all, China produces Chainsaws too.

I'm not talking about Stihl versus its lesser quality competition.

Two competing products of exactly equal quality. One is more expensive than the other. Which would you buy?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
I'm not talking about Stihl versus its lesser quality competition.

Two competing products of exactly equal quality. One is more expensive than the other. Which would you buy?

Maybe that question is irrelevant because there are different market segments and low wage countries focus more on price while others do not?

Also there are some goods were demand goes up when the price RISES.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

I wouldn't be surprised if many of Germany's automotive products have this characteristic (BMW/Mercedes)
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Why? The question is irrelevant, it has no basis in reality and is completely hypothetical, as evidenced by Germany's increased exports to China.

Discriminating between two equal products of different price has no basis in reality?

There are only three possible answers. You buy the expensive one, you buy the cheaper one, or you don't know. Which is it?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Discriminating between two equal products of different price has no basis in reality?

There are only three possible answers. You buy the expensive one, you buy the cheaper one, or you don't know. Which is it?

If China is producing all the cheap goods and Germany is producing all the expensive ones, then yes, the question is irrelevant. If your question had a basis in reality, then Not only should Germany's exports to china NOT be rising, but China should be attacking Germany's overpriced market with ease.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
If China is producing all the cheap goods and Germany is producing all the expensive ones, then yes, the question is irrelevant. If your question had a basis in reality, then Not only should Germany's exports to china NOT be rising, but China should be attacking Germany's overpriced market with ease.

I swear to GOD! This is my last try.

You walk into a store. You see two equal products of different prices. Assuming you need the product, do you buy the cheaper one or the more expensive one?

Screw China, Screw Germany, Screw everything else! In a normal every-day situation, which do you buy?
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Just curious Phokus because I skimmed your articles, is it like tooling and industrial equipment that is high on the exports? or are consumer goods making a killing in China as well? Quite different things with very different demands. I bring it up because China makes rather crappy tooling and precision equipment, only the poorest of craftsmen I've come across would even consider buying Chinese equipment, yet it is sold here everywhere.
 
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