End Priveleged Class, End Unions.

[matt0611]

There are no fucking jobs, that's why management/capital has all the leverage, that's the whole point.

So there are no jobs but we want to artificially increase the costs of labor?

You think I like it that there are no jobs?

Sometimes you have the leverage and sometimes you don't.\
For now workers don't have it so wages (and prices) should fall to get people working again IMO.

 

[Matt915]

HAHAHAHA, you actually think workers still unionize like they did several decades ago. Private union membership is almost completely decimated (comparatively speaking)

Good, now I hope they're finished off within a generation, and get rid of public unions asap as well.

 

[feralkid]

That makes no fucking sense.
Can you at least give me a reason why I should have to go work else where? If i'm capable of doing the job, and negotiating on my own, why should I have to pay for representation I don't want?

Because a majority voted for it.

Sucks, doesn't it?

 

[Phokus]

So there are no jobs but we want to artificially increase the costs of labor?

You think I like it that there are no jobs?

Sometimes you have the leverage and sometimes you don't.\
For now workers don't have it so wages (and prices) should fall to get people working again IMO.

News flash: During an economic crisis, wages don't fall because wages are sticky, companies would rather layoff workers than adjust their wages downward (and it has nothing to do with minimum wage because this happens in high paying white collar jobs too, that and minimum wage is behind equilibrium for low paying jobs too). The supply/demand equilibrium model doesn't work for employment the way you think it does.

Actually, i don't want to just 'artificially increase the costs labor', but i want the US to adopt similar policies to germany whose government policies has spurred small business creation and thus created demand for that labor.

 

[matt0611]

Because a majority voted for it.

Sucks, doesn't it?

A majority which has no reason to have this power that is only granted to them by a law.

And now people are coming after this law.

Sucks, doesn't it?

 

[Phokus]

Good, now I hope they're finished off within a generation, and get rid of public unions asap as well.

Sure, you can do that, just don't complain about the increase in welfare.

 

[Illusio]

Because a majority voted for it.

Sucks, doesn't it?

That's it? That's the best you can come up with. So you're really saying there really is no good reason for it.

My guess is people would realize they are wasting money on union dues once they realized they can do just fine without them. But they are never given the chance due to the dictatorshiplike presence of the union.

 

[xj0hnx]

Because a majority voted for it.

Sucks, doesn't it?

Mob rule trampling on the minorities right? How progressive of you.

 

[xj0hnx]

That's it? That's the best you can come up with. So you're really saying there really is no good reason for it.

My guess is people would realize they are wasting money on union dues once they realized they can do just fine without them. But they are never given the chance due to the dictatorshiplike presence of the union.

Progressives like dictatorships, as long as it's one they agree with.

 

[feralkid]

Mob rule trampling on the minorities right? How progressive of you.

Tap your sarcasm meter.

 

[matt0611]

News flash: During an economic crisis, wages don't fall because wages are sticky, companies would rather layoff workers than adjust their wages downward (and it has nothing to do with minimum wage because this happens in high paying white collar jobs too, that and minimum wage is behind equilibrium for low paying jobs too). The supply/demand equilibrium model doesn't work for employment the way you think it does.

Actually, i don't want to just 'artificially increase the costs labor', but i want the US to adopt similar policies to germany whose government policies has spurred small business creation and thus created demand for that labor.

No, they usually won't directly cut wages. (But I do know a lot of people who have taken a pay cut in order to not get laid off).

They will cut back or suspend 401k matching (I know plenty of companies that did this).

Decrease other benefits, cut back on parties, bonuses.

Hire new workers at lower wages, etc.

 

[xj0hnx]

Tap your sarcasm meter.

My intrawebz must be broken. :hmm:

 

[Zebo]

A unionized public employee, a Tea Partier and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea partier and says, "Watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie

This is exactly what going on.

Except it's even more insidious and cuts to the very beginnings of money. Do you know there are some people who can get< 1% loans generated from thin air and loan it to us at 6-29%? Make money off spread for doing nothing.

And goes on from there.

 

[Phokus]

No, they usually won't directly cut wages. (But I do know a lot of people who have taken a pay cut in order to not get laid off).

They will cut back or suspend 401k matching (I know plenty of companies that did this).

Hire new workers at lower wages, etc.

I don't know many people who have taken PERMANENT pay cuts, if they have it's TEMPORARY. Companies would rather not lower wages because you run the risk of losing your best workers, especially during a turnaround. Where i work, they froze COL wage increases for the last 2 years (they've since given us a 2&#37; raise this year) and also laid people off. This is why introducing SOME inflation during an economic downturn is actually good: you can avoid some layoffs because inflation is a decrease of wages.

 

[feralkid]

That's it? That's the best you can come up with. So you're really saying there really is no good reason for it.

My guess is people would realize they are wasting money on union dues once they realized they can do just fine without them. But they are never given the chance due to the dictatorshiplike presence of the union.

Since when is "voted for by a majority" not a reason to do something in this country. It is how we elect our government, you know.

The will of the people means nothing to you?

People can vote out of unions, just as they are required to vote them in.

 

[sportage]

Again, most of these benefits you just cited are from 80-100 years ago. And janatorial work is NOT the same as freezing your ass off in a warehouse.

Not so.
Why do you think unions were started in the first place?
And do you really believe any business cares one rats behind if their worker freezes their ass off in the warehouse?

Lets explore here... Question!
Warehouse workers (in my true life example earlier) make $20 to start because:
A. The company feels sorry they freeze their ass of?
B. The fear of unionization?

I know what "YOUR" answer will be.. But what is the reality here?

PS. (This thread is a waste of time... Like Senator Barney Frank once said, "you can't argue with a brick wall")

 

[Engineer]

People can vote out of unions, just as they are required to vote them in.

LOL...in 1999, the company I worked for was getting ready to vote out the union...the union got word and instead of letting them be voted out, they kicked the employees/company out and stated that they didn't feel like representation of the company was in best interest with the union. (i.e. kicked them out to keep it from looking like they were voted out). Interesting that the company gave a $2.00 pay raise as well as a 401k plan once the union was gone (on top of the pension) but actually cut the workforce and pay during the previous 2 years.

I dislike unions but removing them will eventually lead to a rise of the unions similar to the 30's and 40's. Swings both ways.

 

[Craig234]

Good, now I hope they're finished off within a generation, and get rid of public unions asap as well.

Move to Somalia.

 

[Zebo]

Okay, let me say something here about the logic behind these two posts and how it relates to unions in general. OK, so .1% of the country controls 99% of the wealth or whatever. Also, large corporations are holding down the middle class and executives are taking an increasing amount off the table of middle-class workers. That's basically what these two posts are saying, yes?

Well then what have unions been doing? If things are so awful for the middle-class worker, then where is all the money that workers are dumping into unions going? The've been losing chunks of their paychecks for the last 40 years as things have been getting progressively worse supposedly? So American workers have spent their entire careers dumping money into public unions that thye're a part of, without seeing things get better, and actually seeing them get worse. So why are people happy about paying into them? Why are people FORCED to join them?

You'll get no arguments from me that they don't go overboard.
-compulsory participation
- not being able to get rid of deadwood
-and I question public unions since salary was decided by public in the first place with elected officials.

But in general unions are a good thing. They offer a redistributive effect to the natural course of rich getting richer.

Human nature is to take advantage of your market position. Unions do it. Capital does it. Need balance.

 

[feralkid]

LOL...in 1999, the company I worked for was getting ready to vote out the union...the union got word and instead of letting them be voted out, they kicked the employees/company out and stated that they didn't feel like representation of the company was in best interest with the union. (i.e. kicked them out to keep it from looking like they were voted out).

No surprise.
Plus the Union probably wanted to "Spend more time with their families".

 

[JD50]

A majority of your fellow workers voted to unionize.

That's their right.

You had every right to work elsewhere.

Yea, with companies like wal-mart paying their employees sub-standard wages, who needs unions.

Part of the problem with unions - the companies that need to be unionized aren't. Mcdonalds, wal-mart, best buy,,,,,,,, and the rest of the fortune 500 should have unions so that their employees can earn a livable wage.

If the Walton family is listed as one of the richest families in the world, there is no reason for their employees to be drawing social assistance.

There are no fucking jobs, that's why management/capital has all the leverage, that's the whole point.

heh, you guys could just debate yourselves. Get your story together, can people just go work somewhere else if they don't like the conditions of their employment or not?

So if you don't like working for a union shop then you can just go work somewhere else, but if you don't like working at Walmart or McDonalds you can't go work anywhere else because there are no fucking jobs? Did I get all of that right?

 

[CupCak3]

I grew up in a union household (Dad worked for the UAW) and my wife is a member of the teacher's union. Even though I HATE some of the things they unions do, I believe their imporance is going to increase in the coming years as opposed to declining as it had in years past.

What needs to happen is union REFORM, particularely when it comes to the union protecting bad workers and ensuring the union is acting a behalf of the majority of whom it represents.

 

[JD50]

Since when is "voted for by a majority" not a reason to do something in this country. It is how we elect our government, you know.

The will of the people means nothing to you?

People can vote out of unions, just as they are required to vote them in.

Glad to see that you would've agreed with slavery and segregation. I guess you're also against equal rights for gays since the majority of people think gays shouldn't be allowed to marry. What a good little progressive you are.

 

[piasabird]

As much as I despise unions in government jobs, I can see the need for unions in factories and other businesses. I have worked in a factory and have seen the kind of abuses that people in management positions will try to get away with. However, I see no need for a union to represent teachers. Unions for government jobs is just a form of extortion and blackmail. The real problem is the government does not represent the workers, and workers have no real rights. Often Unions are just another level of abuse and extorsion and they often do nothing for workers rights.

When I worked in the factory, in a union, I did not see anyone looking out for fair treatment of humans. If they treated an animal, the way they treated the union employees, someone would have gone to jail for mistreatment of animals.

 

[feralkid]

heh, you guys could just debate yourselves. Get your story together, can people just go work somewhere else if they don't like the conditions of their employment or not?

So if you don't like working for a union shop then you can just go work somewhere else, but if you don't like working at Walmart or McDonalds you can't go work anywhere else because there are no fucking jobs? Did I get all of that right?

It's like this:

You have the RIGHT to work elsewhere.

That doesn't mean you'll find something.

Kind of like:

You have the RIGHT to go fishing.

That doesn't mean you'll catch anything.