Entry-level DSLR

[Woofmeister]

Hey all, it's my first visit to the AT Camera forums.

I'm looking to make the jump from a compact to an entry-level DSLR. I'm really a photo newbie and I use my camera primarily during travel and the basic family-type events. The current camera is a Canon PowerShot which is nice because it's a one-touch shoot and forget solution. Still, the camera has some limitations in four areas: (1) limited zoom; (2) slow speed (3) limited battery life; (4) no wide angle.

We went on a trip to Greece last year and the camera's limitations really became apparent when I tried shooting some of the landscapes and monuments. So, I'm thinking it's time to bite the DSLR bullet.

Because I've never caught the photography bug, I'm probably not going to start buying lots of different lenses and accessories so I think I'm looking at a kit with a good all-around lens. Considerations are in order of priority: (1) ease of use; (2) image quality; (3) weight and (4) (optional) image stabilization.

Price range is $500-$600

So far I'm considering:

Canon Digital Rebel XTi
Nikon D40
Olympus E-420
Sony DSLR-A200

I'm leaning toward the Sony but is there anything else I should be looking at? I know the D40 does not accept lenses without built-in focus motors, but since I'm not going to be buying lots of lenses, I don't see that as a problem. Am I right?

How important is image stabilization for rank amateurs like me?

Thanks for the help.


Edit--Poll Added

 

[ElFenix]

D40 with 18-55 and 55-200 VR maybe? your budget is a little tight. it'll be hard to address both limited telephoto and limited wide angle without covering a range like what i've just laid out. you could always get the camera now and a telephoto later.

the twin lens E-410 kit might be in your range if you can find one. it lacks stabilization, though.

good stance can help with camera shake. but at 300 mm equivalent there is only so much you can do.

 

[Krioni]

Are used cameras in consideration?

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: Krioni
Are used cameras in consideration?

No I don't think so. I guess I could go up to $700 if the budget is not going to make it.

 

[Krioni]

I think the options you're considering are good candidates.

If you go up to $700, then you could add some of the newer versions of those cameras like the Canon XSi, Nikon D60, Olympus E-520.

I cannot urge you enough to go to a store or camera shop and put your hands on all of the cameras you're considering. All of the cameras you've mentioned *feel* different in your hands compared to each other. I'm not going to argue for one or the other based on the feel. You have to figure that out for yourself based on the size of your hands, etc. For me, it ended up that the Nikons felt better when I held them than the Sonys and Canons. So much so that I gave up a pretty nice Canon lens that I already had to go with the feel of the Nikon system. But... that's just how it felt *to me*... you could be entirely different. For me, the Olympus was also a pretty compelling package. The E-510 can be had with a 2 lens package within your price range.

Any way you go, you're going to have a GREAT camera that should start you off on taking some good and interesting pictures.

Oh yeah, keep a little room in your budget for:
- A Good Bag
- A decent tripod (not the $30 crap from BestBuy)
- Fast Memory
- Lens cleaning stuff
- A book or two on photography wouldn't be a bad idea either. I can recommend one if you're interested.

 

[Jawo]

I couldn't agree with Krioni more...go to a local camera store (NOT RITZ/WOLF Camera) and try all of the cameras out. Each one has different ergonomics and everyone has different opinions about what feels the best to them. I tried them all out (Sony, Canon, Nikon, Olympus) and the Canon had the best button layout and feel for me. But go try them out yourself. You'll need at least $100 (ideally more) for memory, cleaning stuff, and a bag. Can always get a tripod later. Before you buy memory, check to see what your camera supports; theres no point getting SanDisk Extreme IV for a Canon XTi when Extreme III will do just as good.

 

[andylawcc]

if size and weight (of both Body AND Lense) really matter, then by all means the Olympus E-420. I am carrying a E-410, a 14-42mm a 40-150mm, and a pancake 25mm in a bag that my friend can't even fit a Canon Xti with the 18-55mm.

however, if "upgradability" is in high priority, then go Canon.

 

[punchkin]

I think you need to reconsider buying a used body. I'm also wondering why you're against it, on your very low budget. Are you worried about a warranty?

 

[Krioni]

Originally posted by: punchkin
I think you need to reconsider buying a used body. I'm also wondering why you're against it, on your very low budget. Are you worried about a warranty?

Yeah, I agree... I think you should at least consider a used system. I got a used Nikon D50 with a 55-200mm lens for $320 shipped. That's hard to beat and the camera has been a joy to use.

The nice thing about going used is that you can get into a system for cheap and have some money left over for the other "stuff" that you will want or need. Also, if you get it and decide that photography isn't for you, you're not out a lot of green.

The obvious downside is that you *could* get a camera/lens that's not been well taken care of or has been used excessively.

I think there's a way to check the number of shots taken on some of the bodies.

 

[twistedlogic]

Originally posted by: Krioni
I think there's a way to check the number of shots taken on some of the bodies.

Yeah, inside the exif data there is a "Total number of shots" field, for Nikon at least, not sure about others.

@ OP

Yes you are right about the D40 not Auto-Focusing with non AF-S or AF-I lenses. But most new lenses are AF-S, which is great because they are silent and focus faster. The only problem is you can't AF with some cheap prime glass (ie 50mm f1.8 ~ 109$) .

As for a budget of only $700, right now Ritz Camera has a special on a D40 with two lenses(18-55mm and 55-200mm), a free Gadget Bag, DVD's to teach ya, and a Free $50 Gift coupon, for only $599.98. If you don't want to buy used and really need a range of 18mm to 200mm, this deal is impossible to beat. Plus with the extra gift card you can buy some filters and memory cards. And with the extra $100 in your budget, jump on the SB-400, a great external flash (way better than the built-in) which will also let you bounce your flash. The only problem with this solution is your giving up the VR (vibration reduction) or Nikon's version of IS.

 

[Woofmeister]

My reluctance to go the used route is because my inexperience with DSLRs would make it impossible for me to determine whether the camera body and lenses were in good condition. Also, it is my understanding that warranties on used cameras are limited and given by the retailer rather than the manufacturer--a significant drawback given the lifespan of electronics retailers lately.

I'd rather pay $700 to $800 for a new camera and a full warranty than $400 for an unknown.

Twisted Logic's post about the D40 with two lenses package is the way I'm currently leaning. Nikon had a nice glossy insert in the NY Times last weekend trumpeting it and it seems like the best deal out there right now.

 

[OdiN]

Try going to www.keh.com and looking at what they have in the way of used equipment.

They are a good dealer and have good rankings of equipment. And you'd have a storefront behind you vs. some guy on ebay.

 

[Alyx]

If you are looking for a store to go play around with stuff (and are still located in NY) then I'd drop by the BH Photo store. They are one of the larger online retailers and I'm sure you can find all kinds of information in the store.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/fi...enter/NYSuperStore.jsp

 

[randomlinh]

Originally posted by: Jawo
I couldn't agree with Krioni more...go to a local camera store (NOT RITZ/WOLF Camera) and try all of the cameras out. Each one has different ergonomics and everyone has different opinions about what feels the best to them. I tried them all out (Sony, Canon, Nikon, Olympus) and the Canon had the best button layout and feel for me. But go try them out yourself. You'll need at least $100 (ideally more) for memory, cleaning stuff, and a bag. Can always get a tripod later. Before you buy memory, check to see what your camera supports; theres no point getting SanDisk Extreme IV for a Canon XTi when Extreme III will do just as good.

I will third the "try it in a store" suggestion. I love canon, but their post-original rebel series are frustrating for me to hold w/o a grip. I have the same reservations for the D40/50/60, but it's manageable for me.

 

[cputeq]

but is there anything else I should be looking at?

Pentax K200D with 18-55 AL II kit lens for around $650.


Pros:

1) In-body stabalization (works on any lens). This is a good thing to have, trust me
2) Weather sealed
3) Built like a freakin' tank and (for me) a great grip
4) Good high ISO performance
5) The kit lens is actually worth a damn
6) Wide compatibility with older lenses, great for picking up cheap manual focus but optically excellent lenses.
7) AA batteries (it's a pro for me, at least)
8) Dynamic Range extension
9) Ability to shoot with awesome Pentax Limited optics, if you can afford them.
10) Lots of newbie modes in addition to the standard P/A/T/M modes.
11) Pentax "normal" lenses are usually pretty darn good and not too expensive.
12) Controls are very nicely laid out.

Cons:

1) Crap burst rate and buffer
2) AF performance in low light suffers
3) Less of a newer lens ecosystem than Canon / Nikon, especially in the long prime departments.



--------------------------

March of this year I was in the exact situation you were. I was buying my first DSLR. I had absolutely no affiliation with Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sony, or Pentax....I had only owned PnS cameras from Kodak and Fujifilm.

I researched for two weeks and bought what would suit me best...so far absolutely no regrets.

You really have to look at what you're shooting. If you're not a huge sports shooter or birder, there's no reason to pick Canon or Nikon over Sony, Olympus, Pentax, etc. unless a lot of your friends own them and will let you borrow lenses


IMO, Canon and Nikon hold the birder / sports categories very well...their AF systems are awesome and they have loooong range prime lenses with great optics (and matching gigantic price tags).


-----

My only real "stay away from" brand is Olympus, just because they went with a 4:3 system, meaning their damn cameras have a 2.0 crop factor. Good luck getting a wide angle lens on their mounts without paying through the nose. Plus, their sensor is smaller than APS-C.

------

The best advice I think I can give?

1) Determine what type of photographer you are (macro, birds, larger wildlife, people/portraits, city, sports (large events), sports (small arena or local events), landscape, studio)

2) Look at some lenses that would by suitable to the situations you would shoot in from above list, from each camera manufacturer (also realize third parties (Tamron, Sigma) make lenses for most of the mounts and they're priced equally, usually)

3) Decide on a camera body that gives you any sort advantage you may want.

4) Try them out in a store if you can, or order from an online place (amazon) that allows a generous return if you don't like it.

5) Remember, in the end, photography is about 95% artistic vision, lightning, and know-how and only about 5% gear.

6) Have fun

 

[twistedlogic]

Originally posted by: cputeq

but is there anything else I should be looking at?

IMO, Canon and Nikon hold the birder / sports categories very well...their AF systems are awesome and they have loooong range prime lenses with great optics (and matching gigantic price tags).

It's not just about the AF systems, both Nikon and Canon offer a huge assortment of lenses and generally have better Image processing inside the camera. Plus they are both known for there low-noise high-iso performance.

Remember, your not only buying a camera body, your investing into a "system". In the future, if you decide to upgrade your body, you don't want to change systems and render all your glass useless, unless you e-bay a lot or can trade off.

The Pentax K200D really looks nice on paper, and I'm sure it takes some great shots. My only problem (besides lens choices and slow frame rate) is its massive weight of 1.5 lbs (2X heavier than Olympus E-420). If weight and size are primary considerations, the K200D is probably not the best option. I really do like the Dynamic Range extension though, as some of the pics I've seen from it are awesome.

I do agree with cputeq about photography is mostly about artistic vision and less about the gear. But I also believe its not about what the camera can do for you, but rather what you can do with the camera.

As for going to a store and trying them out, I have yet to find a retailer close to me that has any display models that actually work. Is this just my area or does this happen everywhere?

 

[ghostman]

While I agree a used camera could be a great bang for the buck, I think the OP has good reasons to buy new. Chances are, those who are completely new to DSLRs will start taking photos and then wonder why their point and shoot compact camera that costs much less produce better results. Photos will come out fuzzy now when the same photo came out sharp from a P&S. Without the experience to understand why it came out that way, they'll think a used camera/lens may be defective. With a new camera/lens, if the photos still come out poorly, chances are more likely that it's due to the photographer's inexperience.

I own the Canon XTi. I chose it because the Nikon D80 was too pricey (Nikon D40 was not out yet), Sony Alpha was too new, Pentax and Olympus were not popular enough (and thus, less user community support for my newbie self).

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: Alyx
If you are looking for a store to go play around with stuff (and are still located in NY) then I'd drop by the BH Photo store. They are one of the larger online retailers and I'm sure you can find all kinds of information in the store.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/fi...enter/NYSuperStore.jsp

Good suggestion. I was thinking the very same thing.

Further, having considered the very informative posts here, I am thinking of increasing my budget and buying a camera along with a two lens kit. The possible choices are:

Sony DSLR-A200 with 18-70mm Zoom Lens & 75-300mm Zoom Lens for $729.95 at Abes of Maine;

Olympus Evolt E-510 with 14-42 mm & 40-150 mm Lens E510 for $590 at US1Camera;

and the bank breaker:

Nikon D60 with 18-55mm VR Lens & 55-200mm VR Lens for $799 at Abes of Maine.

Suggestions and/or comments from the panel?

 

[ElFenix]

i've never heard of them but their resellerratings are ok

 

[tfinch2]

I went with the Sony A200 for $500. I sold the kit lens for $80, and purchased the KM 24-105mm f/3.5-4.5 for $215 and the Sony 50mm f/1.4 for $190.

Not bad setup for ~$850.

 

[Krioni]

Well, I think you have a lot of great suggestions and information.

I will still recommend that you go physically put your hands on any models you can. They don't even have to necessarily work. Though that would be nice. Mainly, I would be looking to see what fits your hands best and what has controls that feel comfortable to you.

Any way you slice it, you're about to get one of many great cameras in consideration... have fun with it! And don't get too hung up on gearing up. Just get out and take some pictures, lots of them!

Please be sure to update us with what you choose!

 

[twistedlogic]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister
Suggestions and/or comments from the panel?

Any of them cameras would produce great results and should get you hooked on taking more pictures.

The Olympus is the only one to offer Live-View, which can introduce shutter-lag when using it(not a problem for portraits). IMO, live-view is targeted towards people coming from a P+S and can be sort of a gimmick. I guess it would be useful for framing shots where you can't put your face up to the viewfinder.

Both the Sony Alpha and the Olympus offer Image Stabilization(IS) IN-BODY, where the Nikon does theres through the lens (which has shown to be more effective and can be seen in the viewfinder). So with either Sony or Olympus, any lens you mount will have IS, which is great, even 25 year old lenses.

Both the Sony and the Oly have a much slower start-up and shutdown time compared to the Nikon(1.5 seconds vs .4 seconds). So if you need your camera to be on instantly, this can be a deciding factor.

As for battery life, the Sony has them all beat with 750 rated shots, 650 for the Oly, and only 470 shots on a fully charged D60 battery. And when it comes to weight, the Oly is the lightest, weighing in at 16.2 Oz, compared to the 17 Oz Nikon and a 22 Oz Alpha.

One other thing to factor in is the Image Sensor size and crop factor. The Olympus uses a smaller sensor than Sony or Nikon, which gives your a bigger crop factor(2X vs 1.5X on Sony). This can make it difficult to get real wide angle shots with the Oly, but makes it nice for telephoto use.

Good luck with your choice, have fun shootin.

 

[abaez]

The 420 does not have IS, that's reserved for the 510/520.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: twistedlogic

One other thing to factor in is the Image Sensor size and crop factor. The Olympus uses a smaller sensor than Sony or Nikon, which gives your a bigger crop factor(2X vs 1.5X on Sony). This can make it difficult to get real wide angle shots with the Oly, but makes it nice for telephoto use.

Good luck with your choice, have fun shootin.

olympus's pro level wide zoom is one of the best. and they just introduced a lower grade wide zoom.

the bigger concern about the image sensor is that, assuming panasonic uses the same technology as sony for sensors, the olympus/panasonic sensor is 3/4 of a stop noisier than a sony, and 2/3 of a stop noisier than a canon, simply due to the smaller size. and because panasonic's compact-camera sensors are so noisy, i don't even know if it's that good. further, because of the smaller sensor, the equivalent field of view lenses have 3/4 to 2/3 of a stop more depth of field (and 2 stops more depth of field than a 135 camera like a 5D or D3). that makes it harder to get subject isolation for portraits, but it is good for landscapes or anything else where larger depth of field is needed.

 

[Woofmeister]

Thanks for all the help folks. Looks like I'm going Nikon D60 with 18-55mm and 55-200mm lenses. Amazing how I started at $500 and ended up at almost $800.

Oh well, just doing my bit to aid the struggling economy. :roll: