Estimated $4.5 billion was moved on bank transfer day

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JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
1.) By not passing Glass-Steagall in the 1st place.
2.) By not bailing out banks.

Dodd-Frank claims that with their bill, there will no longer be "Too big to fail".
Instead of bailing out banks, we will now start bailing out derivative clearing houses.

Only a moron would assume Dodd-Frank did anything at all to fix the system.
Glass-Steagall is still there.
"Too big to fail" is still there.

Do those 3 things LegendKiller mentioned earlier and you will fix most of the problems with the financial system. Add stop bailing out banks to those 3 things and you will fix 99% of the problems.

Everyone loves to attribute the repeal of Glass-Steagall on the financial crisis but my thesis is that there was so much demand for mortgages and mortgage securities that the bubble pop would have happened with the same severity anyway even if it had never been repealed. Ultimately, the banks would have figured out a way to lend out the money one way or another while side-stepping Glass-Steagall.
 

Dman8777

Senior member
Mar 28, 2011
426
8
81
So your solution to banks exploiting regulatory loopholes is to give up regulation? I'm gonna have to think that one over for a bit...
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
So your solution to banks exploiting regulatory loopholes is to give up regulation? I'm gonna have to think that one over for a bit...

If you put up regulation and it does nothing but cause the entities being regulated to just find loopholes to exploit it, then what's the point? So you feel good and politicians can say "see, we tried!"
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
76
Everyone loves to attribute the repeal of Glass-Steagall on the financial crisis but my thesis is that there was so much demand for mortgages and mortgage securities that the bubble pop would have happened with the same severity anyway even if it had never been repealed. Ultimately, the banks would have figured out a way to lend out the money one way or another while side-stepping Glass-Steagall.

I disagree with this point. The demand was artificially inflated by peddling predatory loans, AAA-rated dogsh!t CDO's, and fantasy models of perpetually-increasing house prices. The reason housing market has tanked is it went down to what the demand should have been without the artificial boost. The worst part of it was that the banks and lending institutions knew (as they admitted in a legal testimony) that loans and underlying securities were garbage. That does not absolve the speculators looking to flip houses, but those speculators already got what they deserved with the plummeting value of their house. The banks, however, fully deserve the blame for holding the whole economy hostage as a result of their greed and recklessness.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,726
2,501
126
Bankers were producing the securities because there was demand from homeowners and to-be homeowners. Americans need only to look in the mirror for the mess - they caused it by wanting the American dream of owning a home, not the bankers. Bankers were only doing what the population demanded. Without that demand, bankers would not have created the securities.

You have it backwards. There was enormous demand-mostly from overseas-for solid as a rock USA securities. Wall Street created a bogus, convulted system of packaging mortgage backed securities (implicitly USA backed through Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae). As the demand for these securities grew, so grew the demand for more mortgages. Lenders-driven by Wall Streets appetite for ANY mortgages, together with the knowledge that if the loans went sour they wouldn't hold the bag, basically totally abandoned any pretense of responsible underwriting practices and would give a mortgage to anyone who could fog a mirror.

It was ultimately a failure to have effective regulation-due to our long standing trend to deregulate and cut regulator's budgets.

To abandon the concept of regulation altogether is moronic. It's like saying my house was robbed and the robber never caught, so we might as well dissolve the police department altogether.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
What came first, chicken or the egg?

I will go back to, without greedy Americans who were dead set on buying a home, the crisis would have never happened. You can blame drug dealers all you want but without users, drug dealers would not be creating new strains of more dangerous drugs.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
You have it backwards. There was enormous demand-mostly from overseas-for solid as a rock USA securities. Wall Street created a bogus, convulted system of packaging mortgage backed securities (implicitly USA backed through Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae). As the demand for these securities grew, so grew the demand for more mortgages. Lenders-driven by Wall Streets appetite for ANY mortgages, together with the knowledge that if the loans went sour they wouldn't hold the bag, basically totally abandoned any pretense of responsible underwriting practices and would give a mortgage to anyone who could fog a mirror.

It was ultimately a failure to have effective regulation-due to our long standing trend to deregulate and cut regulator's budgets.

To abandon the concept of regulation altogether is moronic. It's like saying my house was robbed and the robber never caught, so we might as well dissolve the police department altogether.

I'll agree that this one foot in - one foot out approach of deregulating while having GSEs backing mortgages is indeed moronic. But you are failing to see the opposite side of the argument. If these mortgages weren't backed by fannie and freddie, and banks did not have access to artificially low interest rates, there would not, or at least may not, be the need for all this regulation because there would be nothing for these banks to abuse.
 

Dman8777

Senior member
Mar 28, 2011
426
8
81
What came first, chicken or the egg?

I will go back to, without greedy Americans who were dead set on buying a home, the crisis would have never happened. You can blame drug dealers all you want but without users, drug dealers would not be creating new strains of more dangerous drugs.

When a hair-dresser with no assets goes to every bank in town and asks for 400k to buy a house, they should all turn him/her down. It shouldn't matter how badly he/she wants the house. That's banking 101.
 

Dman8777

Senior member
Mar 28, 2011
426
8
81
If you put up regulation and it does nothing but cause the entities being regulated to just find loopholes to exploit it, then what's the point? So you feel good and politicians can say "see, we tried!"

Or... you could close the loopholes... maybe?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
JS80: You're wrong about regulation being ineffective. Canada has proven it can be done. The difference between us and them is that there's no political will to have a strong regulatory framework and our regulatory agencies suffer from regulatory capture (and we have many fractured regulatory bodies), while in Canada, they have a vertically integrated regulatory body with teeth.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/db2b340a-0a1b-11df-8b23-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1ai0fl620

http://eh.net/eha/system/files/Bordo.pdf

Our problem is that we have no political will. We have stupid fuck conservatives who balk at the word 'regulation' and the rest of the politicans whittle down any regulatory bill that comes up for vote when armies of lobbyists come out of the woodwork to fuck it up. Edit: That and the fact that we've been deregulating for several decades, thanks to lobbyists again. That and regulatory capture of the SEC and other regulatory bodies.

edit: Also, this:

The way rules are enforced seems to matter, too. The Canadian system is based on principles, rather than rules. It is about the spirit, rather than the letter, of the law. For Dickson, that means “we want to be told everything that is going on. We don’t want to have a list of boxes that we tick because that’s not very effective.” She is particularly disdainful of a legalistic approach. “Having lawyers looking at this line or that clause and debating with you about whether something is do-able or not is not the right conversation to have. The right conversation is the principle. You have to know what risks you are undertaking.”

The bank chiefs seem to get the message. According to Clark, whose TD bank has significant operations in the US: “The message in the US is it’s your responsibility to meet our rules. In Canada, the responsibility is to run the institution right. Julie says [to the CEO]: you are the chief risk officer of the bank.
 
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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Our problem is that we have no political will. We have stupid fuck conservatives who balk at the word 'regulation' and the rest of the politicans whittle down any regulatory bill that comes up for vote when armies of lobbyists come out of the woodwork to fuck it up. Edit: That and the fact that we've been deregulating for several decades, thanks to lobbyists again. That and regulatory capture of the SEC and other regulatory bodies.

For some reason I thought of Moses walking down with the ten commandments to a crowd of conservatives. "This is onerous regulation! What about independent contractors?! The market should decide if and when to kill!" And so on and so forth with every commandment.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
For some reason I thought of Moses walking down with the ten commandments to a crowd of conservatives. "This is onerous regulation! What about independent contractors?! The market should decide if and when to kill!" And so on and so forth with every commandment.

The religious right would be able to swallow that a lot easier than having Nancy Pelosi tell them what to do.

So just tell them the regulation is God's will. So let it be written, so it shall be done.

Oddly enough, google image search that, and you get a picture of Obama before anything from the 10 Commandments much less Rameses.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
The first few pages of this thread were awful, but the last 2-3 have actually been ok.

I gotta side with JS though; I think if you want to place blame, while it's not exclusively with any one 'side' the fundamental problem is with the consumer. No matter what "perfect" punishment or solution or situation you dream up for the banks, irresponsible/ignorant consumers are going to push this kind of behavior until they themselves 'learn'.

I actually work at a bank, in Tech though, so save the pitch forks folks. But I do deal with customers on a regular basis to pitch in, and I gotta be honest it's scary seeing how some people treat money. Old people with retirement accounts of a few thousand dollars, young people who spend every pay check to the last dime in a matter of days, adults with savings accounts of a few hundred dollars. I know some people are just in situations where they have to scrape by, and more power to them for doing so; but I see it far too often to believe that's what everyone is doing, especially when you look at where the money is going.

And yes, often times the customers that are the biggest asses (eg: waste the most of our time) have some of the smallest accounts. I would not be sad to see them go.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
When a hair-dresser with no assets goes to every bank in town and asks for 400k to buy a house, they should all turn him/her down. It shouldn't matter how badly he/she wants the house. That's banking 101.
If the loan is backed by the federal government through Freddie Mac, Frannie Mae, FHA loans, and other methods, why should the banks have to conduct any "due diligence" on their part?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
If the loan is backed by the federal government through Freddie Mac, Frannie Mae, FHA loans, and other methods, why should the banks have to conduct any "due diligence" on their part?

You know why banks didn't do 'due diligence' back then? Because the originators pretty much didn't keep the loans. When you originate a loan, sell it to a bank, the bank sells it to an investment bank, the investment bank packages the loan into a security and sells it to some sucker pension fund, why on earth would any of them do any due dilligence? In fact, not keeping the loan incentivizes fraud.

The only time banks cared about being careful with loans was back in the day when banks were privately held partnerships (rather than publicly traded companies) and they kept the loans they originated. Senior execs of those banks held lots of equity in the bank and had every reason to make sure the loans were sound. We're talking way back though.

Also, something else to ponder:

http://bonddad.blogspot.com/2011/11/about-that-gsecra-causing-bubble.html
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
You know why banks didn't do 'due diligence' back then? Because the originators pretty much didn't keep the loans. When you originate a loan, sell it to a bank, the bank sells it to an investment bank, the investment bank packages the loan into a security and sells it to some sucker pension fund, why on earth would any of them do any due dilligence? In fact, not keeping the loan incentivizes fraud.

The only time banks cared about being careful with loans was back in the day when banks were privately held partnerships (rather than publicly traded companies) and they kept the loans they originated. Senior execs of those banks held lots of equity in the bank and had every reason to make sure the loans were sound. We're talking way back though.

Also, something else to ponder:

http://bonddad.blogspot.com/2011/11/about-that-gsecra-causing-bubble.html

It's actually a bit more complicated than that - the originators vouched for all the underlying notes and sponsor entities (ie banks) had recourse in case of misrepresentation and fraud. Then the banks passed that guarantee on the actual investors, which is why you see sponsors being sued by pension funds and institutional money.

BAC got hugely f'd with the country wide acquisition, that company was nothing but a liability due to the above.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
If the loan is backed by the federal government through Freddie Mac, Frannie Mae, FHA loans, and other methods, why should the banks have to conduct any "due diligence" on their part?

You just highlighted what the real problem was that caused this bubble to burst in the manner that it did after regulations were removed but mandates left in place.

This is similar in effect to the student loan bubble in which government backs up loans with federal dollars, lenders then become more then willing to offer said loans to anyone with a pulse because the FED basically tells them they can't lose and they are required to offer these loans for the "Public interest". Then colleges in response raise fees because well they can't lose either and they have the drum beat belief of "Everyone needs a college education" being pushed in public schools which then causes many people to flood their institutions.


All this leads to people who rack up tens (in some cases hundreds) of thousands of dollars in student loans for what amounts to near worthless degrees many some cases or in some horrible cases they just plain drop out but colleges still get their money for the time they spent there. In the end however what precipitates the build up and the bursting of the bubble is government action (or inaction in regards to failing to remove mandates) which causes unintended effects behind the intent of their original policies.
 
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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
It's actually a bit more complicated than that - the originators vouched for all the underlying notes and sponsor entities (ie banks) had recourse in case of misrepresentation and fraud. Then the banks passed that guarantee on the actual investors, which is why you see sponsors being sued by pension funds and institutional money.

BAC got hugely f'd with the country wide acquisition, that company was nothing but a liability due to the above.

To add a little more here. BAC had very little choice in the decision to save country wide as the feds put a great amount of pressure on them to accept the acquisition.
 

Obsoleet

Platinum Member
Oct 2, 2007
2,181
1
0
ROFL. This is truly so insignificant that isn't not even worth mentioning. As somebody said, let me know when it hits a trillion, then I'll stop scoffing.

Why would you scoff at someone doing what little they can, but still trying to make a difference in the world? Makes no sense other than being a contrarian.

The problem is the scoffers, thinking they are so insignificant in this world that they just sit on their ass..
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
What came first, chicken or the egg?

I will go back to, without greedy Americans who were dead set on buying a home, the crisis would have never happened. You can blame drug dealers all you want but without users, drug dealers would not be creating new strains of more dangerous drugs.

Think of it this way. You are a migrant farm worker in California with virtually no assets. A bank is willing to give you a 700k reverse amortization teaser rate mortgage. You would be a fool not to take it. The bank basically sold you a call option on real estate for virtually nothing. If the housing market continued to rise you made free money, if it fell it wasn't your skin in the game especially in a non-recourse state.
 
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