Ethereum GPU mining?

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Avalon

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2001
7,569
172
106
Would think even if you're mining, as long as you don't convert to fiat or use the coin to purchase a real world tangible item or service, you shouldn't have to report it as income at that time, but I'm only roughly familiar with US tax laws on the subject.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,486
2,363
136
Would think even if you're mining, as long as you don't convert to fiat or use the coin to purchase a real world tangible item or service, you shouldn't have to report it as income at that time, but I'm only roughly familiar with US tax laws on the subject.
If you mined, you have to declare it as income. IRS treats it as if you received something of value, therefore it is your income.

What I wonder though, what happens to all the people who mined way way back before IRS regulation (or post IRS regulation) and never declared them as income. What do they do? Just declare it as capital gains income with 0 tax basis?
 
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Avalon

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2001
7,569
172
106
If you mined, you have to declare it as income. IRS treats it as if you received something of value, therefore it is your income.

What I wonder though, what happens to all the people who mined way way back before IRS regulation (or post IRS regulation) and never declared them as income. What do they do? Just declare it as capital gains income with 0 tax basis?

Hmm, so what happens if you sell what you mined next year? Is it taxable twice? Or do you exclude it from the other gains you made selling since you reported it in the current year?
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,486
2,363
136
Hmm, so what happens if you sell what you mined next year? Is it taxable twice? Or do you exclude it from the other gains you made selling since you reported it in the current year?
Yes, you only pay tax on additional appreciation since the time you mined. So for example you mined a coin worth $100 on April 5th 2017. On your 2017 taxes you're supposed to declare $100 as ordinary income subject to ordinary income tax rates. Suppose the coin appreciated to $250 at the time when you want to sell it - you pay tax only on $150. Additionally, how it is taxed depends on when you sell it. If you hold it for less than a year and sell it on say April 4th 2018, your $150 will be taxed as short term capital gain, or it'll be taxed at your ordinary marginal tax rate, so if you're in 28% tax bracket, the feds will get $150*0.28. If you hold it until April 6th 2018 before selling, it'll be taxed at long term capital gains tax rate, or %15 for most of the people.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,499
12,371
136
The accountant that I'm working with told me to simplify things by finding the initial cost basis and then subtract your capital gains. For example say if you wired $40,000 to an exchange and bought that much worth of Ether last year and you just held. Now it's worth $400,000 so you would calculate capital gains off of $360,000. The capital gain percentage being determined by your income tax bracket (different in some provinces).

I'm still trying to figure it all out but I'm setting aside 25% for whatever I cashed out in 2017 for tax purposes.

That seems like a good place to start, though when dealing with the IRS, you always have to be careful. The odd part is that if you paid $40k on mining equipment and then sold the resulting ETH for $400k after holding for one year, they would probably want you to pay standard income tax on the coins that you mined and then pay long-term cap gains on <$400k - initial value of coins>. Then you would have to claim your mining gear as a deduction on your return.

In contrast, if you paid $40k for coins alone and then sold them for $400k after holding for one year, you just pay long-term cap gains on $360k and it's done deal.

Somehow miners are bad, but speculators are good? Whatever.

You can probably treat both situations as the same and maybe get away with it. BUT another thing you have to keep in mind is that if you are making anything over a certain amount - something like a few thousand, I forget the exact number - then you have to pay QUARTERLY. You can't just wait until April like Johnny Lunchpail.

AND if your combined total income (cap gains, earned income, etc) is over $200k for an individual "head of household" or $250k for a married couple, you have to pay 3.8% Medicare tax on everything over that amount thanks to the ACA. Not sure if that changes in 2018, but for anything you sold in 2017, it applies.

For a lot of people who sold long-term holdings in Dec. 2017, if they really made bank, they're paying 23.8% on most of it, AND that money is due by January 15th (actually 16th due to MLK day). That's IRS form 1040-V folks, read the instructions.

Nice power consumption. I think I'm closer to 500W with an 850 P2 and a 1700X. You could mine XMR with your 1800X at around 600Kh which is still profitable. You can do both at the same time. That's how I keep things warm in my computer room

Yeah I've considered XMR. Haven't gotten around to it yet though, still playing with this Vega. I tinkered with voltages and got it down to ~215W total power draw from the wall. Power draw at idle with the same configuration is around 90W. So 125W for the card, doing 36 MH/s? Cool.

If you mined, you have to declare it as income. IRS treats it as if you received something of value, therefore it is your income.

Legally it's treated the same as "receiving property" in the US. Though like-kind is frowned upon for 2017 and earlier, and forbidden in 2018.

What I wonder though, what happens to all the people who mined way way back before IRS regulation (or post IRS regulation) and never declared them as income. What do they do? Just declare it as capital gains income with 0 tax basis?

They probably just have to pay cap gains on those coins when they move them (convert to other crypto or sell for cash). The IRS guidance is from 2014.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
I'm still trying to figure it all out but I'm setting aside 25% for whatever I cashed out in 2017 for tax purposes.

I see you are in Canada.

I don't think it'll be that high, unless you are selling a whole bunch in the same year. You are HODL for Ethereum right? Then it'd make sense you'd keep most for the future.

Significant amount of what I mined happened when Eth was hovering in the $10 range so small business tax rate, even if it applies won't be large for me. Plus, you can subtract depreciation costs for your equipment. For computer hardware that's 45% annually, so you compute how long you had the thing, and subtract that from total income. And you can cut electric costs from that too. And be stingy about it, because tax guys certainly will be. Windows license costs, costs of the Riser, CPU, memory, motherboard, GPU, USB hubs, power supplies, drives.

Now, from what I know, you are taxed twice, once with mining, and second when you sell them. You could have converted them to Bitcoin, or other altcoins, or directly into dollars.

When you sell it, it counts as capital gains. The calculation for that is exactly the same as selling stocks. Half of what you earned is taxable. So if you sold $10K worth, $5k is taxable. And if you earned $35K that year from working, your effective taxable income would be $40K. I still need to call up CRA and see what they say about it to be sure.
 
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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
69,619
13,274
126
www.anyf.ca
In Canada, I've read about it and it looks like I'll pay based on two things:

1. Whether mining or not: If mining has happened, then the taxes paid are equivalent to if you were a small business. 12% or something
2. You pay capital gain tax if you sell any cryptos or convert to fiat money. It's similar to selling stocks. In Canada, capital gains are treated as 0.5x income gain. So 10K gain is equal to you gaining 5K in annual income

#1 gets complicated. I have to calculate out every 1 Eth mined as income based on the pricing of Eth at the time of mining.


Wait, are they officially taxing cryptocurrency here? I heard the US wants to but never heard anything about here in Canada, but I knew it was a matter of time... makes it not worthwhile anymore. Almost need to hire a full time accountant just to figure it all out because it will get complicated fast. IMO if they want to tax us then they should do all the math for us and send a form in the mail like a T4. It's ridiculous that they put the burden on us. Do they also tax transactions? I think in the states they want to do that, which is retarded, because you sometimes just want to shift coins from one wallet to the other.

If this is the case I might just flip my card on ebay, not worth dealing with and might even lose money. I guess I can mine straight to the exchange wallet, so I would save myself one transaction at least but I heard that's not recommended.

Would it be legal to do this under a business name? Then at least you can write off your costs so it would maybe make up for all the taxes they are wanting to charge.
 

VeryCharBroiled

Senior member
Oct 6, 2008
387
25
101
If you mined, you have to declare it as income. IRS treats it as if you received something of value, therefore it is your income.

What I wonder though, what happens to all the people who mined way way back before IRS regulation (or post IRS regulation) and never declared them as income. What do they do? Just declare it as capital gains income with 0 tax basis?

i dunno man but i will be finding this out when i talk to my cpa. ill let ya know.

i plan on cashing out quite an amount this year and need to do the first in last out thing this time. i have my records from slush from 2011 on, and i have signed a message with core using that addy and stating i mined to that addy. this is about 30 % of my stash. i also mined at btcguild and downloaded the cvs file for those coins before they closed shop. also have receipts for the cards i mined with back then.. actually still have the cards main point of all this is to make sure they know those coins were mined by me back then.

i suppose ill have to estimate the cost of each btc as i got paid out back in the day.

and im sure i will have to redo my taxes for those years before 2014 when i started reporting them on my taxes. that will suck but oh well.
 
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Yakk

Golden Member
May 28, 2016
1,574
275
81
Don't forget to deduct the costs associated with mining (hardware, power, building space, internet costs...) to get those profits in the first place...

Of course different countries different laws mind you.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
If this is the case I might just flip my card on ebay, not worth dealing with and might even lose money. I guess I can mine straight to the exchange wallet, so I would save myself one transaction at least but I heard that's not recommended.

If you search about Crypto laws, a section pops up on CRA's site. Also various sites about accountants advising what to do shows as well. I'd rather pay little now than worry about government crackdown later.
Honesty is key. I don't see why simple transfer will be taxed. You aren't earning anything. Taxes are about government wanting a piece of your profits.

I feel like we should take this privately, or we should have another section about crypto taxes. After all, this thread is about Ethereum mining.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,486
2,363
136
and im sure i will have to redo my taxes for those years before 2014 when i started reporting them on my taxes. that will suck but oh well.

AFAIK you can only file correction up to 3 years in the past, so you won't be able to redo your taxes prior to 2014. So ask your CPA about it.
 

VeryCharBroiled

Senior member
Oct 6, 2008
387
25
101
AFAIK you can only file correction up to 3 years in the past, so you won't be able to redo your taxes prior to 2014. So ask your CPA about it.

thats interesting, i wouldnt think the irs would pass up a chance to suck more money out of someone if they (the tax payer) finds a possible mistake. although i guess they could just calculate something, and add a ridiculously huge penalty. oh well its only money.

i will definitely bring that up as i will want the record straight if it matters, and i am try to be a good little drone for tax purposes. got a lot to talk about with the cpa, this year will bring a lot of long term changes to our finances.
 
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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
69,619
13,274
126
www.anyf.ca
Well I'm officially mining. just got one 1070 TI card that I'm using in my gaming rig as a temp setup, but it's tying up that rig so I want to build a dedicated one eventually and build a custom rackmount case that can support 6 cards. The cards are so high now though, need to go 5U as the 4U case it's in now I can't close the lid. Had to bring the rails down a notch so I can slide it back in.

The issue will be obtaining GPUs now, but I'll get a rig built anyway and hope for the best. Too cold to work in my garage so have to wait till spring anyway to start on the case, will see how things look then as far as being able to buy GPUs.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,499
12,371
136
One of the positive side effects of card shortages seems to be that difficulty can't scale with price right now. It's too difficult/expensive to bring more hashpower online, so ETH profits are through the roof.
 
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harobikes333

Platinum Member
Sep 18, 2005
2,390
7
81
daily-page.com
Ok... so I've read a ton of articles & they all say, Meh, don't bother mining...?
I have a 1800X & RX580 setup.... would it be worth mining Ethereum??
Electricity is pretty cheap : ~ 8.5/kWh
EDIT: Other cryptocurrency worth the juice?
It seems only mining via a Pool would be worth it....?
Sorry I'm a noob
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,570
10,202
126
Caveat, I've not yet ventured into actual mining clients / pool mining, but NiceHash is an easy way to get your feet wet, and they pay out regularly in BTC, depending on how much you hash. You sell hash-power to them, they pay in BTC, and other people pay them BTC, to mine coins, via the people running their client.

So, with an 1800X and an RX 580, I would say maybe $6-8 USD/day worth of BTC, mining 24/7. If you sign up for a NiceHash internal wallet, you will get paid out at 0.001+ BTC, which is approx $15, so two days of mining for you. You can transfer to coinbase with 0.002+ BTC min. (no fee though), and then from coinbase, sell for USD, and profit ends up in your bank account or paypal or whatever. Or you can transfer the BTC out to another exchange, and buy some cheapo coins, in the hopes they raise in value.

Yeah, coinbase charges $1.99 USD to sell BTC, under a certain amount; above that, I think it's 1.5% or 2.5%.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,570
10,202
126
15 bucks every 2 days to use 15 bucks in electricity, what a great way to get rich quick.
Electricity is probably $125/mo, earnings are around $500, so maybe 1/4 the earnings go towards the electricity - in theory. (My place has electric heat, included in the rent. So really, it's free, it's offsetting the heating bill that my landlord pays. Summer will be slightly different.)

I have to pay a percentage of my income towards my rent, so I'm looking at paying another $125/mo for extra rent, and then taxes.

Edit: Speaking of my setup, not the RX 580.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
Electricity is probably $125/mo, earnings are around $500, so maybe 1/4 the earnings go towards the electricity - in theory.

1 RX 580 will get you $4/month, assuming you BIOS mod and overclock them. If the rest of the system is idling, and you have 1-2 drives, it will use less than 200W of power. From that, you can use electric costs to calculate power bills.
 
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harobikes333

Platinum Member
Sep 18, 2005
2,390
7
81
daily-page.com
1 RX 580 will get you $4/month, assuming you BIOS mod and overclock them. If the rest of the system is idling, and you have 1-2 drives, it will use less than 200W of power. From that, you can use electric costs to calculate power bills.
NiceHash Profitability Calculator for one RX580 seems to think I'd make 2.81 USD / Month... hardly worth the wear & tear on my equipment..? I've read into undervolting to roughly 90W & manage 28 MH/s on the RX580
An alternative calculator seems to think much differently? $108.47 / Month... a large large difference...? Seems I need someone to set me straight here >_<
 

bsp2020

Member
Dec 29, 2015
106
122
116
NiceHash Profitability Calculator for one RX580 seems to think I'd make 2.81 USD / Month... hardly worth the wear & tear on my equipment..? I've read into undervolting to roughly 90W & manage 28 MH/s on the RX580
An alternative calculator seems to think much differently? $108.47 / Month... a large large difference...? Seems I need someone to set me straight here >_<
Your NiceHash link is using $.90/KWh but the other calculator is using $.10/KWh. I pay about $.20/KWh and both calculator says I'd make about $90 per month.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
The Polaris 10 class cards use more than 90W. That's just the GPU chip. As a system, if you undervolt, and assuming you have Gold rated power supply, and a new system, it uses 150W or more for 1GPU.

The difficulty is slightly over 2,184,450,413Mhash/s right now. Divide that by your hash, and again by 3 to see how long it'll take you in seconds to get 1 Eth.
 
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