News EU taxes Chinese BEV's

[biostud]

EU to slap extra tariffs on Chinese electric cars

The European Commission's anti-subsidy inquiry into Chinese electric vehicles has been described as one of the most consequential of its kind. #EuropeNews

www.euronews.com

China-made battery electric vehicles (BEVs) will soon be subject to import tariffs when they are brought into the European Union's borderless market, where demand for these environmentally-friendly products has soared in recent years.

The European Commission announced on Wednesday the first provisional decision under its anti-subsidy inquiry for BEVs assembled in China, split by brands:

• BYD: 17.4%
• Geely: 20%
• SAIC: 38.1%
• Other BEV producers in China that cooperated in the investigation but have not been individually sampled: 21%
• Other BEV producers in China that did not cooperate: 38.1%

Will be interesting to see how it affects Tesla and the European car makers.

 

[sdifox]

Even if the tariff is 100%, the BYD Dolphin would still only be USD$20,000

Phoney Stark will not be happy.

Are Chinese electric vehicles taking over the world?

Tesla and other Western electric car manufacturers are facing stiff competition from China.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[kage69]

China has horrible quality control issues. I wouldn't pay $2000 for a BYD, or any other Chinese vehicle. Muskrat must be pissed they can mimic his shitty quality for a fraction of the price.

But fund the CCP and get a shitty car for it? No thanks.

Rivian is still the most impressive I've seen, price being the only detraction. Hopefully that can change.

 

[Stokely]

That's quite the detraction. I could technically afford a Rivian but I'm not paying that much for a vehicle.

But then their own site pushes their products as "adventure vehicles". I don't need an "adventure vehicle" and I'm ok with my dong size so I don't need a huge pickup to begin with to not-haul stuff around the suburbs. (To be fair to Rivian, their trucks don't seem quite as "compensating" in size as say an F-150)

Fact is, I need a vehicle at least as large as the Tesla Y to haul my gear. For now that likely means a hybrid of some kind. The Kia EV9 is interesting but the price is definitely creeping up there. Most likely we'll be getting a Sienna hybrid in a couple years, vans are the most useful and I don't give a shit if they are "uncool".

 

[sdifox]

China has horrible quality control issues. I wouldn't pay $2000 for a BYD, or any other Chinese vehicle. Muskrat must be pissed they can mimic his shitty quality for a fraction of the price.

But fund the CCP and get a shitty car for it? No thanks.

Rivian is still the most impressive I've seen, price being the only detraction. Hopefully that can change.

It's more of a price point issue. It's not like they cannot make high end stuff, it's more of how much are you willing to pay for that quality. I mean Volvo XC90 was built there, but then I don't know if they just assemble there or are the parts made there as well. I understand they have shifted production to North Carolina since 2022. Probably to avoid tariff situation rather than production quality.

 

[kage69]

It's more of a price point issue. It's not like they cannot make high end stuff, it's more of how much are you willing to pay for that quality. I mean Volvo XC90 was built there, but then I don't know if they just assemble there or are the parts made there as well. I understand they have shifted production to North Carolina since 2022. Probably to avoid tariff situation rather than production quality.

Price is an agregate of many factors. Volvo's EV plant is in South Carolina actually, and while they do assemble things with parts from China, the XC90 is still a $60k vehicle. Volvo designed, important to note. Not a Chinese design. Volvo's head office in Gothenburg still runs the show with R&D, marketing, etc, Zhejiang Geely Holding just owns them now.

Like it or not the Chinese EVs trying to flood the market are generally crap. Shitty paint, "Chinese quality" steel alloy metal used in the frames, interiors are shoddy and cheap, to say nothing of the service footprint in North America these things don't have. Customers in Thailand and Israel haven't exactly been raving about them.

I've seen footage of vast lots of EVs rotting away in China. That tends not to happen to well made products in demand. Looks more like China is trying to make electric cars as close to being disposable as possible, a notion I find pretty ridiculous.

 

[sdifox]

we'll see how it plays out I guess. I won't buy one, but I am not the only client.

 

[WelshBloke]

China has horrible quality control issues. I wouldn't pay $2000 for a BYD, or any other Chinese vehicle. Muskrat must be pissed they can mimic his shitty quality for a fraction of the price.

But fund the CCP and get a shitty car for it? No thanks.

Rivian is still the most impressive I've seen, price being the only detraction. Hopefully that can change.

Iirc Rivian vehicles are sold at a loss. They are really nice because they are actually a more expensive vehicle than they are sold as so either manufacturing is going to have to have an amazing breakthrough that makes vehicles cheaper, Rivian raises prices to start being profitable, or Rivian continues selling cars at a loss.

I'm not necessarily against tariffs, countries need to protect their industries to a certain extent but I do find it a bit distasteful when countries pretend to be against subsidies when they are quite happy to subsidise their own industries. Just be honest about it, then you can have an open debate about why you're doing it and what you hope to achieve.

 

[kage69]

That's quite the detraction. I could technically afford a Rivian but I'm not paying that much for a vehicle.

But then their own site pushes their products as "adventure vehicles". I don't need an "adventure vehicle" and I'm ok with my dong size so I don't need a huge pickup to begin with to not-haul stuff around the suburbs. (To be fair to Rivian, their trucks don't seem quite as "compensating" in size as say an F-150)

Fact is, I need a vehicle at least as large as the Tesla Y to haul my gear. For now that likely means a hybrid of some kind. The Kia EV9 is interesting but the price is definitely creeping up there. Most likely we'll be getting a Sienna hybrid in a couple years, vans are the most useful and I don't give a shit if they are "uncool".

The term may irk you, but they're not wrong. It's not exactly over selling it when you've got off roading performance like that.

Rivian R1T is smaller and quite understated compared to the bro dozers and models used by coal rolling assholes, yet it has plenty of internal storage and can pull like an F-350. I'm surprised you made the comparison at all. Rivian focused on a truck and SUV first as that's what the public wants to buy most. They are now adding 2 smaller cars to their line up, the R2 and R3.

I'm actually with you on the minivans. Honda Odysseys are actually friggin great. There, I said it.

 

[KMFJD]

China has horrible quality control issues. I wouldn't pay $2000 for a BYD, or any other Chinese vehicle. Muskrat must be pissed they can mimic his shitty quality for a fraction of the price.

But fund the CCP and get a shitty car for it? No thanks.

Rivian is still the most impressive I've seen, price being the only detraction. Hopefully that can change.

Apple really is the greatest company is the universe than if they are able to defeat shoddy chinese quality control issues

 

[sdifox]

Iirc Rivian vehicles are sold at a loss. They are really nice because they are actually a more expensive vehicle than they are sold as so either manufacturing is going to have to have an amazing breakthrough that makes vehicles cheaper, Rivian raises prices to start being profitable, or Rivian continues selling cars at a loss.

I'm not necessarily against tariffs, countries need to protect their industries to a certain extent but I do find it a bit distasteful when countries pretend to be against subsidies when they are quite happy to subsidise their own industries. Just be honest about it, then you can have an open debate about why you're doing it and what you hope to achieve.

USA is a prime example of subsidy hypocrisy.

 

[WelshBloke]

Apple really is the greatest company is the universe than if they are able to defeat shoddy chinese quality control issues

Yeah. Chinese manufacturing will make stuff to whatever tolerances and quality you specify. You can't t really say to them "make this as cheaply as is possible" then go "hold up, why is this a bit shonky?"

 

[WelshBloke]

USA is a prime example of subsidy hypocrisy.

Meh. Everywhere does it then pretends that their version of subsidies are different to everyone else's and theirs are totally ok.

 

[sdifox]

The term may irk you, but they're not wrong. It's not exactly over selling it when you've got off roading performance like that.

Rivian R1T is smaller and quite understated compared to the bro dozers and models used by coal rolling assholes, yet it has plenty of internal storage and can pull like an F-350. I'm surprised you made the comparison at all. Rivian focused on a truck and SUV first as that's what the public wants to buy most. They are now adding 2 smaller cars to their line up, the R2 and R3.

I'm actually with you on the minivans. Honda Odysseys are actually friggin great. There, I said it.

Well great until the cylinder disengage borks or the cheap piston rings no longer seal and need a rebuild. Or the pulley shaft is longer than necessary so the job is much bigger involving lifting engine or dissassembling fron of car. Or the door cable will fail because the casing was no good but you cannot just buy the cable, you have to get the whole assembly.

<--- used to drive one. Until it got T-Boned by a retiree.

 

[trenchfoot]

USA is a prime example of subsidy hypocrisy.

I'm thinking any subsidy hypocrisy is basically a result of how much pressure donors with big sticks can leverage their politician stooges into compliance.

 

[sdifox]

Meh. Everywhere does it then pretends that their version of subsidies are different to everyone else's and theirs are totally ok.

Airbus A220 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Boeing got the government to stop Bombardier from selling to Delta by calling it dumping. Never mind Boeing gets big subsidy from the government, it didn't have a competing product.

Bombardier had to sell the plane business to Airbus...who then builds it in the USA to get around that dumping ruling. Bombardier spent like 6B on the program and ended up holding the bag.

CSeries dumping petition by Boeing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[WelshBloke]

Airbus A220 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Boeing got the government to stop Bombardier from selling to Delta by calling it dumping. Never mind Boeing gets big subsidy from the government, it doesn't have a competitor product.

Bombardier had to sell the plane to Airbus...who then builds it in the USA to get around that dumping. Bombardier spent like 6B on the program and ended up holding the bag.

CSeries dumping petition by Boeing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

"The DoC announced its final ruling, a total duty of 292%, on 20 December, hailing it as an affirmation of the "America First" policy."
292% is quite the tariff!

 

[sdifox]

"The DoC announced its final ruling, a total duty of 292%, on 20 December, hailing it as an affirmation of the "America First" policy."
292% is quite the tariff!

Oh keep reading. When Canada appealed to WTO the Americans cancelled the tariff, but they already killed off Bombardier Aerospace division.

 

[WelshBloke]

Oh keep reading. When Canada appealed to WTO they cancelled the tariff, but they already killed off Bombardier Aerospace division.

Well the lack of competition certainly gave Boeing space to flex and make safer cheaper aircraft! 😐

 

[Ajay]

Protectionism is and has been alive and well for the past few centuries (in one form or another). From my perspective, we should pass a law that requires the same thing of chinese companies as they required of foreign companies. Foreign companies had to partner with a Chinese company and have substantial production done in China in order to have the right to sell in their country. The Chinese required (in the preponderance of cases) that the joint company be 51% controlled by the Chinese company (which also meant, controlling interest was also owned by the state!).

Anyway, that should be the bar to entry for any significant quantity of Chinese cars to be sold in the US.

 

[eelw]

Oh keep reading. When Canada appealed to WTO they cancelled the tariff, but they already killed off Bombardier Aerospace division.

And we don’t want your crappy hormone filled milk flooding the Canadian market

 

[Dave_5k]

But fund the CCP and get a shitty car for it? No thanks.

The CCP has already taken over the market for something like 25% of the manufactured products available in the U.S....

 

[kage69]

The CCP has already taken over the market for something like 25% of the manufactured products available in the U.S....

That was years ago. Look at China's foreign customer list now. They need us far more than we need them, and they know it.

Increased integration and trade with Western markets did nothing to open up and liberalize China, it did the opposite - they built a military to bully and threaten others with. Once foreign investors saw how CCP covid restrictions could strangle their supply chains overnight, they all packed up for Japan, Vietnam, Korea, India, etc.

Since 2021 China's stock market has lost roughly 6 trillion in equity. CCP ain't takin over shit.

 

[Brainonska511]

Some of it may be protectionism, but maybe the protectionism is warranted. Countries are concerned that Chinese companies that are effectively state-run and state-subsidized are going to undercut everyone on price to drive competitors from the market.

 

[sdifox]

BYD launches next-gen hybrid system with 2100km range

BYD says its new tech sets three new benchmarks: highest engine thermal efficiency at, lowest fuel consumption, and an incredible range of 2100 km.

www.drivencarguide.co.nz

They just put out a hybrid that has a 2,100km range.