Europe Is Baffled by the U.S. Supreme Court

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a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
You don't like parents be able to include children up to the age of 26 on their family insurance policies? No, I do not.

You don't like insurance companies being barred from rejecting applicants for coverage because of pre-existing conditions? No, I do not.

You don't like insurance companies being barred from imposing lifetime limits on benefits? No, I do not.

You don't like poor families being provided with subsides to help them afford health care coverage? No, I do not.

These items that you site may be great ideas but it is not, repeat, NOT, the function of the government to impose them on private companies.

There is no free lunch. Everything you think is a good idea has to be paid for by someone. Just who do you think ought to pay for free services given to you?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Because "Europe" is a single entity with one monolithic healthcare system.

:facepalm:

Correct, it is not. The EU member states would NEVER allow an EU based one size fits all healthcare system to be forced onto them. They know it would be way too costly and would fail miserably. This is one of the reasons everyone should be able to understand (even Europeans, who seem to magically lose the ability to do so when it is about the US) why a US Fed Gov healthcare system is doomed to failure.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
....and neither does anyone else.

What part of this stupidity, the ACA, do you find worthy of keeping?

The basic idea of a universal mandate with insurance provided by private companies is a pretty solid one. Check out:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2011/04/29/why-switzerland-has-the-worlds-best-health-care-system/

The article is in Forbes so no whining about left-wing sources.

There are plenty of details that the ACA gets wrong. It does nothing to reduce medical bureaucracy & paperwork & doesn't address malpractice reform but at least it offers a path toward near universal coverage that doesn't involve a gov't takeover of healthcare and forces people who currently freeload to get insurance. I'm also not thrilled with the massive expansion of Medicaid or the fact that it does nothing to increase physician supply (since demand is sure to go up) but the basic concept is a solid one IMO.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Correct, it is not. The EU member states would NEVER allow an EU based one size fits all healthcare system to be forced onto them. They know it would be way too costly and would fail miserably. This is one of the reasons everyone should be able to understand (even Europeans, who seem to magically lose the ability to do so when it is about the US) why a US Fed Gov healthcare system is doomed to failure.

Unlike the US though the EU is not a single nation-state.
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
The basic idea of a universal mandate with insurance provided by private companies is a pretty solid one. Check out:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2011/04/29/why-switzerland-has-the-worlds-best-health-care-system/

The article is in Forbes so no whining about left-wing sources.

There are plenty of details that the ACA gets wrong. It does nothing to reduce medical bureaucracy & paperwork & doesn't address malpractice reform but at least it offers a path toward near universal coverage that doesn't involve a gov't takeover of healthcare and forces people who currently freeload to get insurance. I'm also not thrilled with the massive expansion of Medicaid or the fact that it does nothing to increase physician supply (since demand is sure to go up) but the basic concept is a solid one IMO.

This is exactly why I say this stupidity of BoboCare needs to be repealed and we then need a open and far ranging debate on a real health care reform. One that recognizes that the private sector is better able to provide good and affordable health care than the government.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Under ObamaCare the private sector will continue to provide healthcare. Hospitals aren't being taken over by the government and most people who aren't currently on Medicare or Medicaid will continue to be covered by private insurance plans. The ACA does expand Medicaid coverage (something I'm not thrilled with) but it is NOT a UK style socialized system.
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
Under ObamaCare the private sector will continue to provide healthcare. Hospitals aren't being taken over by the government and most people who aren't currently on Medicare or Medicaid will continue to be covered by private insurance plans. The ACA does expand Medicaid coverage (something I'm not thrilled with) but it is NOT a UK style socialized system.

None of that is true.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
None of that is true.

Now you're flat out making things up. ACA requires people to buy insurance from insurance companies. That's the whole thing that some people object to, Americans being forced to buy a service from a private company by the government.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
You also cant pursue happiness when you are dead... but minor details right?

Unless you know you can pursue it to a greater extent while dead... you might have a point then.
In which case that is contradictory to the life part though.

You think that Obamacare is going to be the difference between life and death for me? Why would you think that ?
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
E Pluribus Unum

That said, the example is still sound.

Um, no. There are much greater difference in culture, demographics, systems of government, wealth, etc between the different EU member states than there are between US states.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
Um, no. There are much greater difference in culture, demographics, systems of government, wealth, etc between the different EU member states than there are between US states.

All going the way of Greece over time.
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,893
0
0
A couple thoughts:

1) The Europeans in general have a very different conception of government than Americans do, particularly when it comes to federalism and taxation. I've found myself on many occasions having to explain to Europeans (or even Canadians) why Americans so dislike taxes.

2) As for the particular case of this health care law, here's what I don't get: If the federal government were to raise the income tax across the board 2% (which they are allowed to do) and offer a tax deduction of 2% for healthcare coverage, no one would have a constitutional objection. We have these kinds of deductions all the time for things like college tuition, mortgage payments, insulating your house, etc. Do these constitute an illegal individual mandate? What is the difference between such a tax deduction system and a flat-out mandate, other than simplicity?
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
1) The Europeans in general have a very different conception of government than Americans do, particularly when it comes to federalism and taxation. I've found myself on many occasions having to explain to Europeans (or even Canadians) why Americans so dislike taxes.

That's part of the reason I think that the Swiss system is the one we'd be best of emulating. There are plenty of cultural differences between the US & Switzerland but in general they're view of government (especially the federal government) is closer to the American view than anywhere else in Europe.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
Compare Germany's fiscal situation with ours.

That would be like carefully shopping the 50 States and find the one that's doing the best, which is bullshit. The EU will all go the way of Greece over time, Spain, Portugal, France ....... all of them. Sooner or later they're going to run out of Germany's money to spend.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Um, no. There are much greater difference in culture, demographics, systems of government, wealth, etc between the different EU member states than there are between US states.


How many US states have you been to? There is quite a different healthcare need between Florida and Alaska, for example - from climate alone. The super sparse population of Wyoming dictates needs that the very dense population of Rhode Island does not have. Some states have far older populations, some far younger. On and on.

Each state should setup their own public healthcare system for their state. This would accomplish many things:

1. Get universal coverage to the people of the state.
2. The different systems can learn from each other.
3. Each system can be tailored to the specific needs and wants of the state.
4. State government is easy to hold accountable, Fed Gov is nearly impossible to hold accountable.
5. It is constitutional (barring a state's constitution saying something else, of course).
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
2) As for the particular case of this health care law, here's what I don't get: If the federal government were to raise the income tax across the board 2% (which they are allowed to do) and offer a tax deduction of 2% for healthcare coverage, no one would have a constitutional objection. We have these kinds of deductions all the time for things like college tuition, mortgage payments, insulating your house, etc. Do these constitute an illegal individual mandate? What is the difference between such a tax deduction system and a flat-out mandate, other than simplicity?

Taxation is constitution, forced purchases are not. In their rush to create a horrible law, they did not think it the entire way through. I suspect it is because the dems did not allow enough time for anyone to actually be able to read the bill prior to passing it.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
See bolded. Europeans in general have far better work-life balance than those of us in the US, and many can't understand why we devote so much time to our "careers." I put that in quotes because I think people who define themselves by a job are sad and need to get some perspective on life. That's one area where the Europeans are far ahead of us.

Agree completely, I've personally adopted a work-to-live, not live-to-work attitude. I'd gladly trade income for flexibility and sane work hours. Fortunately I've found a job making pretty good money which is also pretty good to its employees and doesn't work them to death.
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
Now you're flat out making things up. ACA requires people to buy insurance from insurance companies. That's the whole thing that some people object to, Americans being forced to buy a service from a private company by the government.

1. Forcing the people to buy a service is not the function of the government.

2. How can these be private companies if the government tells them what they can and cannot sell and how much to price that product?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Agree completely, I've personally adopted a work-to-live, not live-to-work attitude. I'd gladly trade income for flexibility and sane work hours. Fortunately I've found a job making pretty good money which is also pretty good to its employees and doesn't work them to death.

I agree. When I was young, I was live to work. Fight your way up the ladder to a point where you are happy. Now that I am there, I am working to live.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
When the wheels you have to emulate are devised of squares, triangles, and the round ones are only made of paper mache, it is a good idea to reinvent it.

Jesus wept.

Some of you lot really believe your own hype don't you?
 
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