Europe: Shining light of tolerance

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Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: Scipionix
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Scipionix
Originally posted by: Czar
this has more to do with how we as human beings are than where we live in the world
Uhh, what?
How people react to the world. Something alike to this is happening all over the world, then I'm not talking about Israelis, but minorities in general.
Then what ARE you talking about?
Ok, going to try again.

We has humans always have problems of some sort, nearly all of the time its our own fault and whatever happens we always try to blame someone else. This is the source of it if you may call it so. Then something happens in the world where some group of people were involved, we as a society dont agree to what the group of people did. We are shocked. Then this group of people becomes our excuse, then we start to punish people who belong to that group for actions taken by members of the group. Unrelated but we still do it.
This is happening in Europe about Israelis.
This is happening in the US about Muslims.
This is happening in Africa about white people.
This has been happening through out history and will continue to happen.
This has nothing to do with Europe, the US, the Middle East or anything else, just how we work.

hope my point got through.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: DaveSohmer
You have to understand something Scipionix. If this had happened in the US or Israel, Czar would have been all over us or them. But since this happened in Europe/England Czar will do his best to make it look not so bad. Of course if we (Americans ) do that he's outraged. You have to understand Czar's MO when you're dealing with him because his posts are very one-sided.
look who's talking
 

Scipionix

Golden Member
May 30, 2002
1,408
0
0
Originally posted by: Xerox Man
I disagree, the Holocaust wasn't even generally known about until late in the war.
The New York Times reported on or about June 30, 1942 that a million Jews had already been killed. It may not have been known there, but it was known here.
 

Jimmyjammer

Member
Apr 30, 2002
141
0
0
Originally posted by: Xerox Man
No country fought Germany specifically because of their treatment of jews, it was one of the many reasons they fought them. America was no different, it even had quite a popular Nazi party before Germany went nuts. I'm not in a position to comment on whether Germany had easy help in recruiting people to get rid of the jews for them, but it would seem a natural reaction to me. If a German points a gun at someone (either literally or by word of mouth) and says "Gather all your jews or we'll shoot your family", well that's an easy choice for most people. I somehow doubt the Germans asked the rest of europe kindly to round up the jews, they weren't the kindest people.

I disagree, the Holocaust wasn't even generally known about until late in the war.

Well if that's true (and I'm so far from being an expert on this, so it could easily be true) then the original assertion that no one cared about the Germans killing jews sounds slightly hollow now. How could they care if they didn't know?
I'm finding it obvious that lots of people just accept Jews are hated without really waiting to see if they are. The past is the past, 50 years ago you'd be forgiven for thinking everyone hated jews, but that thinking is a little outdated these days. A lot of people dislike Israel, not for anything to do with religion, but rather for the fact that they see Israel as having basically invaded and subdued the Palestinians. Religion is what really messes the whole thing up.

 

AZGamer

Golden Member
May 14, 2001
1,545
0
0
Originally posted by: DaveSohmer
Originally posted by: AZGamer Finally, some logical action recognizing Israel for the terrorist state that it is. Now, will US universities have the guts to follow suit? I can only hope so.
Thankfully most of our universities are smarter than them and even more importantly, smarter than you. Assgamer, how fitting. Maybe you could explain to us how firing them is going to change one thing in Israel.

Actually, I'd say unfortunately US media has a total, non-sensical pro-Israeli bias, which really clouds the issue to most of the voters (media sheep, if you will). By firing these professors, it shows that intellectuals will not stand for what Israel is doing, and they have to stop their brutal war crimes against Palestine.

Yeah, damn those Israelis for wanting to go to pizzerias without having their limbs blown off their bodies!

If they want peace, don't have the UN make them a nation in the middle of a traditionally Arab/Christian area, and then expect to kick all non Jews out and remain safe.

This is common sense people - no need to hurl insults at me if you disagree. Give a good counterpoint, that is how an intelligent debate works. I see that seems to have gone over some forum members heads.
 

Scipionix

Golden Member
May 30, 2002
1,408
0
0
Originally posted by: Czar
We has humans always have problems of some sort, nearly all of the time its our own fault and whatever happens we always try to blame someone else. This is the source of it if you may call it so. Then something happens in the world where some group of people were involved, we as a society dont agree to what the group of people did. We are shocked. Then this group of people becomes our excuse, then we start to punish people who belong to that group for actions taken by members of the group. Unrelated but we still do it.
This is happening in Europe about Israelis.
This is happening in the US about Muslims.
This is happening in Africa about white people.
This has been happening through out history and will continue to happen.
This has nothing to do with Europe, the US, the Middle East or anything else, just how we work.
hope my point got through.

The difference is that some groups ARE threats and some are not. Just because a group is feared or disliked does not necessarily mean that it is or is not a threat. One has to be able to make these kinds of distinctions and not simply dismiss everything as racism or that "fear of 'the Other' " that Lefty social scientists just love to throw about.
 

Scipionix

Golden Member
May 30, 2002
1,408
0
0
Originally posted by: Jimmyjammer Religion is what really messes the whole thing up.
Not at all. It is so much easier to accept simplistic generalizations that blame everyone than to find the truth.
 

Jimmyjammer

Member
Apr 30, 2002
141
0
0
Originally posted by: Scipionix
Originally posted by: Xerox Man
I disagree, the Holocaust wasn't even generally known about until late in the war.
The New York Times reported on or about June 30, 1942 that a million Jews had already been killed. It may not have been known there, but it was known here.


The same day that Rommel reached El Alamein near Cairo, Egypt. Many countries had already fallen and the war was already 3 years old. If the 'jews being exterminated' news only surfaced then, there's still no way to know if anyone would have reacted based solely on Germany's internal actions.

For the people who feel most persecuted it's easy to suppose that no one cared, it's not, however, fact.

 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: Scipionix
Originally posted by: Czar
We has humans always have problems of some sort, nearly all of the time its our own fault and whatever happens we always try to blame someone else. This is the source of it if you may call it so. Then something happens in the world where some group of people were involved, we as a society dont agree to what the group of people did. We are shocked. Then this group of people becomes our excuse, then we start to punish people who belong to that group for actions taken by members of the group. Unrelated but we still do it.
This is happening in Europe about Israelis.
This is happening in the US about Muslims.
This is happening in Africa about white people.
This has been happening through out history and will continue to happen.
This has nothing to do with Europe, the US, the Middle East or anything else, just how we work.
hope my point got through.

The difference is that some groups ARE threats and some are not. Just because a group is feared or disliked does not necessarily mean that it is or is not a threat. One has to be able to make these kinds of distinctions and not simply dismiss everything as racism or that "fear of 'the Other' " that Lefty social scientists just love to throw about.
That is true, but who is to judge which group is a real threat and which is not? Overall we are very quick to judge and hate groups. We tend to generalize everything to make it easier to understand and cope with even though its completely wrong

 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
5,755
0
0
Actually, I'd say unfortunately US media has a total, non-sensical pro-Israeli bias, which really clouds the issue to most of the voters (media sheep, if you will). By firing these professors, it shows that intellectuals will not stand for what Israel is doing, and they have to stop their brutal war crimes against Palestine.

What I would say is that these so called intellectuals have so fully bought into the Palestinian propaganda ( media camels so to speak) that it has completely clouded their judgement. Firing someone because of their nationality is the most racist, discriminatory thing you could possibly do and anyone who supports it is also a racist. End of story.
 

XFreebie

Banned
Dec 12, 2000
1,414
0
0
the europeans will unite under a single flagging currency called the euro, which symbolzies their stagnating economy
 

Jimmyjammer

Member
Apr 30, 2002
141
0
0
Originally posted by: Scipionix
Originally posted by: Jimmyjammer Religion is what really messes the whole thing up.
Not at all. It is so much easier to accept simplistic generalizations that blame everyone than to find the truth.

Nope, religion really does mess everything up in this case. The jews think they have god given right to the land, they're backed by sympathetic states trying to heal hurts inflicted by the pogroms/holocaust. If religion was removed from the equation then what is Israel? A state founded on a particularly stupid place, why dump all these people into an already populated area and expect them to all get along. Let's let some people from Europe move into your living room and then start kicking you out of your bedroom as they expand. If you remove religion it makes things a lot easier to resolve. But relgion will probably never be removed. Oh well.

 
Aug 10, 2001
10,420
2
0
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Scipionix
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Scipionix
Originally posted by: Czar
this has more to do with how we as human beings are than where we live in the world
Uhh, what?
How people react to the world. Something alike to this is happening all over the world, then I'm not talking about Israelis, but minorities in general.
Then what ARE you talking about?
Ok, going to try again.

We has humans always have problems of some sort, nearly all of the time its our own fault and whatever happens we always try to blame someone else. This is the source of it if you may call it so. Then something happens in the world where some group of people were involved, we as a society dont agree to what the group of people did. We are shocked. Then this group of people becomes our excuse, then we start to punish people who belong to that group for actions taken by members of the group. Unrelated but we still do it.
This is happening in Europe about Israelis.
This is happening in the US about Muslims.
This is happening in Africa about white people.
This has been happening through out history and will continue to happen.
This has nothing to do with Europe, the US, the Middle East or anything else, just how we work.

hope my point got through.
Oh, come on, Czar! If a professor at Harvard or Yale were to dismiss two scholars because they held Egyptian or Saudi passports, you would would go berzerk. Stop playing these games already.
 

Jimmyjammer

Member
Apr 30, 2002
141
0
0
Firing someone because of their nationality is the most racist, discriminatory thing you could possibly do ....


Woo hoo! Someone tell the Nazis that what they did wasn't the worse thing they could do!

Obviously they misheard the instructions when they were told that 'firing' jews was the worst they could do to them.

 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: Vespasian
Oh, come on, Czar! If a professor at Harvard or Yale were to dismiss two scholars because they held Egyptian or Saudi passports, you would would go berzerk. Stop playing these games already.
No I wouldnt, I would find the decision stupid as with this one but thats all.

 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: ShotgunSteve
Originally posted by:Czar We tend to generalize everything to make it easier to understand and cope with even though its completely wrong


Sounds a lot like you, Czar.
sounds alot like every single member of this forum
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Oh please! The majority of Europeans don't feel any guilt for the holocaust. Why should they? It's akin to saying that all American school kids feel guilt for what the two nutters in Colombine did. Why should Europe feel guilty about what one country did, over 50 years ago when they obviously disagreed with that country enough to fight it.

A couple of points. First of all, i didn't say the "majority" of Europeans feel guilt of some sort for the Holocaust, i said many. Many != majority.

Secondly, the phenomenon i spoke of is hardly unique to Europe, or even some Europeans when talking about Israel and/or the Holocaust. It's a fairly common psychological defense mechanism which you see all over the place, even from those whom would seem to not have a need to utilize it.

I'll give you an example. In the U.S., i think it's safe to say that no current citizen was a slaveowner. The vast majority probably aren't even descendents of slaveowners, or Southerners, or really even indirectly tied to the slavery legacy in this country. Yet, there is a very real, distinct, and proper sense of shame that it occurred here. Ditto with quite a few people in Europe when it comes to the Holocaust. And both groups seem to be using the same sort of self-defense mechanism to help themselves deal with the cognitive dissonance caused by the feelings of guilt which the subject causes in them.

Let me give you an example. Okay, i'm sure you've heard someone chime in when the issue of slavery in the U.S. is being discussed with the (partially true) statement that certain African tribes and tribal leaders were an instrumental part in making the slave trade work. That sort of statement is made to deflect part of the blame from the slaveowners in the U.S. and Carribean, who were the primary ultimate "end consumers" of slaves as a commodity. In a way, it's a means of saying, "well, what we did was bad, but look at the ______ tribe, they had a part in the slave trade too, so they're just to blame as we were." It make the slaveowners any less responsible for their actions, but it helps the person making the statement to feel better by rationalizing away some of the culpability for what happened.

Now, make a few substitutions in the above scenario, and you can see the situation i described taking place. Substitute holocaust for slavery, jews for blacks, nazis for slaveowners. Viola. See how the rationalization works? I know you've seen it in action before, heck, plenty of Americans have demonstrated it here on this forum before, do you think that Europeans are somehow immune to it?
 

Scipionix

Golden Member
May 30, 2002
1,408
0
0
Originally posted by: Czar That is true, but who is to judge which group is a real threat and which is not? Overall we are very quick to judge and hate groups. We tend to generalize everything to make it easier to understand and cope with even though its completely wrong
Generally, when groups have the forced conversion or destruction of the rest of the world as a stated goal, I consider then a threat. When groups have living in peace within secure and recognized borders as a goal, I don't consider them a threat.
 

Scipionix

Golden Member
May 30, 2002
1,408
0
0
Originally posted by: Vespasian
hope my point got through.
Oh, come on, Czar! If a professor at Harvard or Yale were to dismiss two scholars because they held Egyptian or Saudi passports, you would would go berzerk. Stop playing these games already.[/quote]
But Vespasian, that wouldn't happen here. Only in civilized and morally superior Europe could this happen.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: ShotgunSteve
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: ShotgunSteve
Originally posted by:Czar We tend to generalize everything to make it easier to understand and cope with even though its completely wrong


Sounds a lot like you, Czar.
sounds alot like every single member of this forum

Look, you did it again with that reply.
and that prooves my point

 
Aug 10, 2001
10,420
2
0
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Vespasian
Oh, come on, Czar! If a professor at Harvard or Yale were to dismiss two scholars because they held Egyptian or Saudi passports, you would would go berzerk. Stop playing these games already.
No I wouldnt, I would find the decision stupid as with this one but thats all.
You must think I'm really stupid, don't you? :frown:
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: Vespasian
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Vespasian
Oh, come on, Czar! If a professor at Harvard or Yale were to dismiss two scholars because they held Egyptian or Saudi passports, you would would go berzerk. Stop playing these games already.
No I wouldnt, I would find the decision stupid as with this one but thats all.
You must think I'm really stupid, don't you? :frown:
no, I just dont think you can read my mind, and obviosly you cant.

 
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