Europeon Left vs. American Left

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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Well, if it's a question of public ownership / property then you may have a point. But access via a warrant or the NSA makes that somewhat moot. The United States has plenty of cameras and access to recordings of "everything" people do in public. And I'm certain the reach of that surveillance is growing by the year. It's the nature of how our technology is evolving to make video readily accessible.

And... aren't there lots of traffic / street cameras in major American cities, owned and operated by "the government"? I am somewhat in disbelief that it is thought of as merely a European thing.

I think that "cameras everywhere" trend started first in Britain (not Europe in general) and went a lot further very quickly, but the US seems to have almost caught up. Besides everyone carries camera phones now, so if something significant happens it'll end up on Youtube anyway.

(To the extent that I'd watch US crime dramas and cop shows and find myself wondering 'er, why don' they just check the CCTV footage and solve the crime instantly, instead of doing all this over-complicated CSI stuff?'' But I think even US cop shows now often feature CCTV footage or specially explain-away its absence)
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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I think that "cameras everywhere" trend started first in Britain (not Europe in general) and went a lot further very quickly, but the US seems to have almost caught up. Besides everyone carries camera phones now, so if something significant happens it'll end up on Youtube anyway.

(To the extent that I'd watch US crime dramas and cop shows and find myself wondering 'er, why don' they just check the CCTV footage and solve the crime instantly, instead of doing all this over-complicated CSI stuff?'' But I think even US cop shows now often feature CCTV footage or specially explain-away its absence)

Oh its nowhere like England yet. We can still wear hats in restaurants!
*Ignore all the other shit we do though.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Do you consider the puritianical nanny-statism that's commonly deployed by American Democratic party as being a left-wing phenomenom? If so then the U.S. left is actually far outpacing their European counterparts.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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I would say that free speech fits with most definitions of the Left, so I disagree there. Some of the other things I agree with, like gun control. That to me is not inherently a right or left issue.

See, I get the differences on things that are not right or left. What I don't get is why people think say the US Democrats are not a Left party. The vast majority of what they stand for would fall under Left ideas.

But the Democrats are clearly a coalition of different political strands. I don't see the Clintons' hostility to unions (they started making a name for themselves by taking on the teachers' unions in Arkansas, I believe) as being a feature of the left. Nor Bill's apparent willingness to endorse the death penalty when he was governor (though, actually, even that's not a clear cut left-right issue, plenty of communists have favoured the use of it...though in the early part of the Russian civil war they would release captured White generals on parole, only to find they went straight back to rejoin their armies...then the Bolsheviks decided to start executing captured whites instead, and that seemed to become a general policy for the Reds from then on - especially for each other).

Nor is Hillary's history on foreign policy, e.g. Libya, Honduras or Haiti, something 'the left' would approve of. Even the war on Serbia was not popular with much of the left. Nor would the left think much of Billl's cuts to AFDC .

And 'free speech' is not a simple left-right issue, different parts of the left and the right disagree with their own sides intensely about it. The Chomskyian left are very keen on free speech, but not every leftist is by any means, the no-platform movement really started with the hard left in the UK in the '80s.

The left would also point out that you don't really have free speech when rich individuals and corporations own the means of speaking. Where they'd disagree with each other is on the question of whether, despite that, what some would call "bourgeois" free speech is nevertheless important to defend. Hence some leftists oppose hate-speech laws while some support them.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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But the Democrats are clearly a coalition of different political strands. I don't see the Clintons' hostility to unions (they started making a name for themselves by taking on the teachers' unions in Arkansas, I believe) as being a feature of the left. Nor Bill's apparent willingness to endorse the death penalty when he was governor (though, actually, even that's not a clear cut left-right issue, plenty of communists have favoured the use of it...though in the early part of the Russian civil war they would release captured White generals on parole, only to find they went straight back to rejoin their armies...then the Bolsheviks decided to start executing captured whites instead, and that seemed to become a general policy for the Reds from then on - especially for each other).

Nor is Hillary's history on foreign policy, e.g. Libya, Honduras or Haiti, something 'the left' would approve of. Even the war on Serbia was not popular with much of the left. Nor would the left think much of Billl's cuts to AFDC .

And 'free speech' is not a simple left-right issue, different parts of the left and the right disagree with their own sides intensely about it. The Chomskyian left are very keen on free speech, but not every leftist is by any means, the no-platform movement really started with the hard left in the UK in the '80s.

The left would also point out that you don't really have free speech when rich individuals and corporations own the means of speaking.

But that is just a no true Scotsman issue. If you take the group in totality they are Left pretty clearly no? I think what makes the US system so different, is that instead of fractured smaller parties, we have one mega party for each side with all the same differences.

For example, give me a party of the UK that is the true Left party. I would bet that there is not one party that is 100% left.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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Well that's quite the fact free word salad.

Europeans don't typically pass nanny state laws; for example saying you can't buy a soft drink over a certain size. While admittedly some of the things the nanny state folks target aren't common in Europe for cultural reasons (like the big soda example), it's also evident that passing nanny state laws isn't a part of their culture either. Abortion restrictions are perhaps the only major way where Europeans indulge in government acting in paternalistic authoritarian ways to protect their citizens from themselves. Here in the U.S. it's not only common, it's almost a core part of the belief system of progressives that it's a needed and vital role for government to play.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
I always hear that the American left is more like a central-right group compared to the left in Europe. Just out of curiosity, what are some of the causes the European left is for? What is typical legislation they'd like to see pushed through? What are examples that make them that much more left? Just curious, I hear it a lot but am unsure of just what the differences are. I know we have some international members here, maybe they can chime in.
Putting public welfare before corporate profit pretty well sums it up. And there is no "European Left party" each state is unique in its political leanings.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,999
13,522
136
This is one of the most pathetic posts on this forum.
Naw, it is spot on, you are just here for the lulz and in your own head getting some "snowflake dems" all riled up by posting idiotic Trump wanna be shit. By the very nature and definition you are a troll and with lame ass posts like this you try to reclaim some idiotic image of integrity ... just until your next troll post. Just troll back to the donald and stop wasting peoples time here. You are not honest. You are not genuine. You are not truthful. Stop pretending.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,644
8,530
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But that is just a no true Scotsman issue. If you take the group in totality they are Left pretty clearly no? I think what makes the US system so different, is that instead of fractured smaller parties, we have one mega party for each side with all the same differences.

For example, give me a party of the UK that is the true Left party. I would bet that there is not one party that is 100% left.


I don't think that's quite what "No True Scotsman" means. It would apply if, for example, someone were attacking 'the left' for being racist, on the basis of Hillary making that 'Super Predators' speech, and the argument that she isn't of the left solely because she made that speech were being used as a defense of the left. That's not the context here. We're just arguing definitions and how they differ in different countries.

Anyway, it is all extremely fuzzy, it's not an absolute, clearly defined thing, it's a question of an accumulation of things. If it were just one issue it would be hard to say that meant someone wasn't left or wasn't right. It's the long list of things that makes me not see Hillary as being on the left. Though people can change, and it's not unimaginable that she might have genuinely moved leftward a bit by the time of the election. We'll never know now.

And I don't think there's a "true" left party (the idea that there is is probably quite dangerous). But there are a range of parties and factions that people would say are on the left. And the judgement about that is different in different countries. In the UK, one would obviously start with the Labour Party. But of course since Blair there's scope for argument as to how much of that is 'left'. But even the right-wing of the Labour Party appears mostly to the left of the right-wing of the Democrats. And the Lib Dems, I have never thought of as being of the left, they are centrists, though the Clegg 'Orange book' faction I'd say are centre-right. It seems to me the Clintons would fit in well with them.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Naw, it is spot on, you are just here for the lulz and in your own head getting some "snowflake dems" all riled up by posting idiotic Trump wanna be shit. By the very nature and definition you are a troll and with lame ass posts like this you try to reclaim some idiotic image of integrity ... just until your next troll post. Just troll back to the donald and stop wasting peoples time here. You are not honest. You are not genuine. You are not truthful. Stop pretending.

Another triggered by a pretty innocent thread. I think you need to find some inner peace. Slamming your keyboard with tears rolling down your cheeks is no way to go about life son.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I don't think that's quite what "No True Scotsman" means. It would apply if, for example, someone were attacking 'the left' for being racist, on the basis of Hillary making that 'Super Predators' speech, and the argument that she isn't of the left solely because she made that speech were being used as a defense of the left. That's not the context here. We're just arguing definitions and how they differ in different countries.

Anyway, it is all extremely fuzzy, it's not an absolute, clearly defined thing, it's a question of an accumulation of things. If it were just one issue it would be hard to say that meant someone wasn't left or wasn't right. It's the long list of things that makes me not see Hillary as being on the left. Though people can change, and it's not unimaginable that she might have genuinely moved leftward a bit by the time of the election. We'll never know now.

And I don't think there's a "true" left party (the idea that there is is probably quite dangerous). But there are a range of parties and factions that people would say are on the left. And the judgement about that is different in different countries. In the UK, one would obviously start with the Labour Party. But of course since Blair there's scope for argument as to how much of that is 'left'. But even the right-wing of the Labour Party appears mostly to the left of the right-wing of the Democrats. And the Lib Dems, I have never thought of as being of the left, they are centrists, though the Clegg 'Orange book' faction I'd say are centre-right. It seems to me the Clintons would fit in well with them.

I think I generally agree. What I find weird is that some even on this thread say the US Dems are not Left, which seems silly.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Europeans don't typically pass nanny state laws; for example saying you can't buy a soft drink over a certain size. While admittedly some of the things the nanny state folks target aren't common in Europe for cultural reasons (like the big soda example), it's also evident that passing nanny state laws isn't a part of their culture either. Abortion restrictions are perhaps the only major way where Europeans indulge in government acting in paternalistic authoritarian ways to protect their citizens from themselves. Here in the U.S. it's not only common, it's almost a core part of the belief system of progressives that it's a needed and vital role for government to play.

Oh yes they do.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...country-in-EU-for-nanny-state-regulation.html
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,697
8,099
136
Europeans don't typically pass nanny state laws; for example saying you can't buy a soft drink over a certain size. While admittedly some of the things the nanny state folks target aren't common in Europe for cultural reasons (like the big soda example), it's also evident that passing nanny state laws isn't a part of their culture either. Abortion restrictions are perhaps the only major way where Europeans indulge in government acting in paternalistic authoritarian ways to protect their citizens from themselves. Here in the U.S. it's not only common, it's almost a core part of the belief system of progressives that it's a needed and vital role for government to play.
In how many places have soda size restrictions been passed? It must be a lot, since you equate it to the entire US Democratic party, and separate out European left parties as not passing "nanny-state" soda size restrictions.

Oh. It was passed in one place, NY, and then repealed almost instantly. And it was an idea of Michael Bloomberg, Republican-turned-Independent. Funny that.

Nanny-state laws are what Europeans are known for. Mandated health insurance for every single citizen. Mandated paid time off. Mandated maternity/paternity leave. Mandated caps on work-hours. Etc, etc, etc. That you're forced to focus on some obscure law that was immediately repealed, in only one locale, as some great example of US Democratic party "nanny-statism" is not only telling, but hilarious. It allowed you to use your conjuring words of conservative righteousness, and it demonstrated just how much you have to strain in order to use those conjuring words. Congrats on that shit-tier example of nanny-statism, champ.

To OP:

In most European countries, the things that the Current US Democratic party is STILL fighting for are already accepted as baseline standards of any decent society. Taxes are higher, but mean that every citizen starts out getting services for those taxes. Not having to worry about how you're going to pay for a catastrophic accident or illness, or going bankrupt over it, allows the population to actually think about more than just making it through this week. Not having to work 40+ hours a week to keep up with rent, electric, and food, means that you have time to pay attention to what your politicians say, and what they actually do. And most importantly, the parliamentary systems in most European countries means that people can find candidates that aren't beholden to one-of-two sets of ideologies, making them feel as if their vote and the candidates they choose from can actually make a difference. And they expect results, because there will be multiple candidates to plausibly choose from next election.

As it should be clear to anyone who is paying attention, the US Democratic party isn't communist, or even socialist. It's centrist, relative to left-wing political ideas and philosophy. The average US Democratic politician would fit in nicely in any European center-right party. The Democrats/Independents that are maligned as communists (not because they are, but because the people making the accusations are fucking idiots and liars) would fit in with the average liberal/progressive wing of European left-wing parties. I.E. people like Sanders and Warren are your typical run-of-the-mill left-wing party member. Nothing notable, and certainly not targets of right-wing authoritarians.

First-past-the-post voting systems, unfortunately, do not foster multiple parties, so the left in the US is stuck trying to use the centrist Democratic party to make slow, left-ward advances in society. Conservative parties should typically only be used as a temper to left-wing parties to make sure that sweeping, drastic changes aren't made that are worse than the problem they are attempting to fix. But, the Republican party has been purged of RINOs, as reactionary right-wing authoritarians label sane, functional conservatives, and we're left with the current shitshow. You can thank the end of the fairness doctrine for that, as right-wing reactionary authoritarians are now the mouthpiece and thought-leaders of the "conservative" party in the US. Gross.

One of the easiest ways that the US could pivot from the current broken two-party system would be to have Instant Runoff Voting. People could both vote their conscience, and vote strategically, without having to compromise their ethics or their country's integrity. What a crazy idea. But, the extremely rich oligarchs who own and operate this country for their own benefit will not allow it, at least without a fight. So they'll continue using their cash and power to lobby to keep the country from adopting the policies that the country actually supports. Like universal healthcare, marijuana legalization, higher minimum wage, ad nauseam.

Recap:

Higher taxes = better constituent service. People expect more because they...have more skin in the game. I hear that conjuring phrase thrown around by conservatives a lot. Yet they want the poor and middle class, who get dick, to pay more taxes, while they want the rich who get almost all of what they want, to pay less taxes. Hilarious. And tragic. And not surprising of right-wing reactionary authoritarianism.

Parliamentarian systems = more accurate representation and accountability to voting citizens who aren't stuck with 1 of 2 choices, and can vote for the best candidate, not just two options that once elected mostly focus on raising cash for re-election.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
We aren't really consistent here with our parties being divided into left and right and which things are supported by which party as it involves the ideals of left or right. Honestly I don't think that people have a very consistent and clear internal value system that drives them to believe certain things politically. Most people identify with parties or movements for reasons which aren't based on a logical application of their belief system. Over time, a party's platform can change quite significantly, yet most often someone who solidly says their a Republican or a Democrat stays a Republican or a Democrat. So, really, the biggest difference between US and Europe here is that, for the most part, Europe has more socialized healthcare and welfare systems, so their reference point is different. When they look at the way we do things that are quite different, it looks glaringly different in political philosophy, but the real difference is what someone is used to as being the way things are done instead of the philosophical beliefs underpinning those choices.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Thanks for confirming his post.

Right... look at the replies to my OP. I would have kept on track and thought this would have been an interesting convo and maybe even might learn a bit, but a few of the same angry fools have to try and ruin things.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
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Right... look at the replies to my OP. I would have kept on track and thought this would have been an interesting convo and maybe even might learn a bit, but a few of the same angry fools have to try and ruin things.

Maybe you should just sit down and enjoy a good cigar.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,644
8,530
136


That raises so many questions. Possibly a bit of truth in it at some level. I favour the state working to change the factors that push people to turn to unhealthy habits rather than penalising those habits directly.

But then, the Netherlands scores very well on their index, and it's a country that has done more than any other to give people a more active alternative to driving, by putting resources into providing excellent, safe cycle routes, including taking space and resources from motoring, with the result that active forms of travel have a vastly higher share of journeys than in the supposedly 'less free' countries on that list and people engage in far more physical activity than in the sedentry car-fixated UK. I think maybe that demonstrates the real limitations of thinking in terms of "nannying", whether for or against. Often those who complain about the 'nanny state' seem quite happy to have an abuser state, that actively makes it harder for people to keep healthy (e.g. by consistently prioritising motor traffic over non-motorised, as the US and UK do)

Also the IEA is a right-wing think tank, which tends to lobby for right-wing ideas so I'd take its findings with a hefty pinch of salt (if salt doesn't raise blood pressure - I'm still not clear on that, I keep hearing contradictory claims). And it's poor science (more lobbying, really) to say 'The obvious conclusion is that nanny state regulation does not work.' when they haven't controlled for any other factors (e.g. income, for starters). Nor have they determined which way the causation runs (maybe there's more nanny statism because there's more unhealthy behaviour to regulate?).

Indeed the fact that the IEA is registered as a 'charity' despite being rather obviously a lobby group for the interests of those who fund it (e.g. British American Tobacco and assorted wealthy Americans) is part of a general annoyance I have with how the 'charity' sector operates.

Where they say there's no evidence that regulations reduce consumption I'd like to see their data, because it's fairly clear when it comes to smoking at least that countries with higher taxes on the habit (Western Europe) have lower smoking rates than those that don't (Eastern Europe).

But I'm not massively in favour of laws to protect people from themselves in a direct fashion. I do see that as more a 'liberal' position than a 'left' one. And in many cases it's a bit of a sliding-scale of 'consent', in that to a degree you can only get away with imposing sin-taxes if many of those subject to them are partly wanting to give up the 'sin' anyway. Though for some such taxes it's about revenue-raising more than trying to stamp out the behavour (alcohol taxes really seem to fall into that category, but smoking might be different).

[I've known of people who specifically moved to the Netherlands, because its so much easier and safer to cycle in that country. The UK state seems to _want_ people to be as fat and inactive as possible]

Edit - e.g. Eastern Europeans smoke _a lot_ and their taxes and regulations on smoking are far lower than in western Europe, so I'm very skeptical that that 'survey' rises that much above the level of political propaganda. That such lobbying groups get the benefits of 'charity' status by claiming to be 'educational' is a mite annoying.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...king-rates-by-country/?utm_term=.b0849d80eed7
 
Last edited:

twjr

Senior member
Jul 5, 2006
627
207
116
This thread is overly simplifying a complex issue. What do you mean by left-wing or right wing? Is it social liberalism v conservatism? Economic liberalism v conservatism? Capitalism v socialism v communism? Liberalism v totalitarianism? Democracy v autocracy? Just because the US is dominated by a two party system where it is easy to throw around "left v right", doesn't mean that the rest of the world's parties or parliaments can be explained by that simple dichotomy.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,179
30,639
136
This thread is overly simplifying a complex issue. What do you mean by left-wing or right wing? Is it social liberalism v conservatism? Economic liberalism v conservatism? Capitalism v socialism v communism? Liberalism v totalitarianism? Democracy v autocracy? Just because the US is dominated by a two party system where it is easy to throw around "left v right", doesn't mean that the rest of the world's parties or parliaments can be explained by that simple dichotomy.
Maybe it would help if you replaced left with demonic baby-eating liberals and replaced right with ordained holy-warrior conservatives.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
30,031
45,271
136
Democrats are a centrist party that pays lip service to some of the ideals of the left and might give some type of a severely watered down version of what the left really wants.


/or something like that
 
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