Europeon Left vs. American Left

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
This thread is overly simplifying a complex issue. What do you mean by left-wing or right wing? Is it social liberalism v conservatism? Economic liberalism v conservatism? Capitalism v socialism v communism? Liberalism v totalitarianism? Democracy v autocracy? Just because the US is dominated by a two party system where it is easy to throw around "left v right", doesn't mean that the rest of the world's parties or parliaments can be explained by that simple dichotomy.


Socially and economically, how our left would compare to the left of European countries.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
You can't wear a hat in a restaurant ?

I have had many friends asked to take off things on their head that block CCTV cameras and told it was the rule. Im not from there, but I have been told this over and over. The UK is a very different place. I remember coming across this recently.

https://gizmodo.com/creepy-uk-surveillance-law-ruled-illegal-but-privacy-a-1822551542

"The regime granted law enforcement the right to hack into citizens’ devices to obtain information during an investigation. All UK companies faced a legal requirement to aid hacking operations and hand over encryption keys if asked. The law also required ISPs to retain the search and browser history of all UK citizens for at least 12 months. Law enforcement agencies were permitted to freely access the data without warrants. Further, ISPs could be charged with a criminal offense if they reveal to users their data had been requested by the government."

It was overturned by EU judges, but shows how the government has the view that they can and should be able to access your personal details when they want to.

Here is an older article about the hats thing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2085192/Hats-banned-from-Yorkshire-pubs-over-CCTV-fears.html

"The Park Hotel in Wadsley, Sheffield, is the latest to be asked to impose the rule by senior police officers.
Mark Kelly, the landlord said: "Police asked us to ensure that everyone removes headgear.
"With pensioners, by the time they sit down their hats always come off anyway because they were brought up with manners so usually take their hats off indoors."
The measure, designed to prevent people from obscuring their faces from CCTV cameras, has been questioned by Barnsley's former Test umpire Dickie Bird, 75, well-known for his favoured white flat cap."
 
Reactions: KMFJD

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,212
136
I have had many friends asked to take off things on their head that block CCTV cameras and told it was the rule. Im not from there, but I have been told this over and over. The UK is a very different place. I remember coming across this recently.

https://gizmodo.com/creepy-uk-surveillance-law-ruled-illegal-but-privacy-a-1822551542

"The regime granted law enforcement the right to hack into citizens’ devices to obtain information during an investigation. All UK companies faced a legal requirement to aid hacking operations and hand over encryption keys if asked. The law also required ISPs to retain the search and browser history of all UK citizens for at least 12 months. Law enforcement agencies were permitted to freely access the data without warrants. Further, ISPs could be charged with a criminal offense if they reveal to users their data had been requested by the government."

It was overturned by EU judges, but shows how the government has the view that they can and should be able to access your personal details when they want to.

Here is an older article about the hats thing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2085192/Hats-banned-from-Yorkshire-pubs-over-CCTV-fears.html

"The Park Hotel in Wadsley, Sheffield, is the latest to be asked to impose the rule by senior police officers.
Mark Kelly, the landlord said: "Police asked us to ensure that everyone removes headgear.
"With pensioners, by the time they sit down their hats always come off anyway because they were brought up with manners so usually take their hats off indoors."
The measure, designed to prevent people from obscuring their faces from CCTV cameras, has been questioned by Barnsley's former Test umpire Dickie Bird, 75, well-known for his favoured white flat cap."


Well, that's one reason why I don't agree with the French fixation on banning the veil - the logical end point is making it a legal obligation for everyone to give a full-facial gaze into every CCTV camera. You shouldn't _have_ to show your face in public places. Even though it remains kind of rude not to. I think the cops are only _requesting_ the pubs have such a rule though, they can't legally demand it...but our cops do like to make up laws as they go along, and to ignore other laws they can't be bothered to enforce. In the end it comes down to the property owners making the demand of their customers or not, and I thought you were OK with private property rights?

But the police hacking story is no different from what's been going on everywhere, in the US just as much as elsewhere. We increasingly live in a mass surveillance state that would have had the Stasi green with envy. They had to go through all the tedium of steaming open envelopes.

RIPA and that ISP holding data law are invasive, in my opinion though. Especially given how several of the major ISPs have had repeated embarrassing data leak/hacking incidents (how long before people's browsing histories get leaked?).

And of course it was put through under the 'coalition', i.e. by Tories and the Lib Dems (who always pose as being supporters of civil liberties but didn't actually do anything to protect them when in government).
Another nail in the coffin of the idea that Liberals are significantly different from Conservatives, and more evidence that the Lib Dems don't actually have _any_ core values, other than being pro-EU (that, to be fair, seems to be their one consistent trait).

Not that New Labour (also liberals, really) were any better, with their over-the-top ID-cards and biometric database scheme. On that point I think it's true that there's a slight cultural difference with the US. There's a bit more of a culture of paying attention to those issues, by a slightly wider part of the political spectrum.
 
Last edited:

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Well, that's one reason why I don't agree with the French fixation on banning the veil - the logical end point is making it a legal obligation for everyone to give a full-facial gaze into every CCTV camera. You shouldn't _have_ to show your face in public places. Even though it remains kind of rude not to. I think the cops are only _requesting_ the pubs have such a rule though, they can't legally demand it...but our cops do like to make up laws as they go along, and to ignore other laws they can't be bothered to enforce. In the end it comes down to the property owners making the demand of their customers or not, and I thought you were OK with private property rights?

But the police hacking story is no different from what's been going on everywhere, in the US just as much as elsewhere. We increasingly live in a mass surveillance state that would have had the Stasi green with envy. They had to go through all the tedium of steaming open envelopes.

RIPA and that ISP holding data law are invasive, in my opinion though. Especially given how several of the major ISPs have had repeated embarrassing data leak/hacking incidents (how long before people's browsing histories get leaked?).

And of course it was put through under the 'coalition', i.e. by Tories and the Lib Dems (who always pose as being supporters of civil liberties but didn't actually do anything to protect them when in government). Another nail in the coffin of the idea that Liberals are significantly different from Conservatives, and more evidence that the Lib Dems don't actually have _any_ core values, other than being pro-EU (that, to be fair, seems to be their one consistent trait).

Not that New Labour (also liberals, really) were any better. On that point I think it's true that there's a slight cultural difference with the US.

Personal story, I have a friend that was dating a girl from France. She would argue how much better France is and so I brought up the veil issue. She explained how they see it as helping women be liberated by taking away their ability to do something they choose to do. So I pointed out that taking away a way to express yourself does not look like liberation to me. She got really angry and I dropped it, but she had no response. Its just a totally different world.

As for mass surveillance state, agreed. This is a tech forum and most of us know how crazy it is. When I try to explain to people about how powerful the Utah data center is for the CIA, they think its a conspiracy. So I pull it up on my phone and you see the wheels start turning. I show them how google can and does track every place my phone has been, knows where I was and for how long, the speed I traveled at ect. I think most of us on the forum just gave up, but others think they have privacy.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,593
7,653
136
Universal Basic Income.
You mean like minimum wage?

Cant view youtube at work. Quick summary?

I'm surprised you had to ask, please start with the video he linked, it's a good explanation. As for some background context, I'll provide links to prior, related, topics to explain why it isn't a crazy idea.
  1. Our social contract.
  2. Capitalism needs a safety net.
  3. My Progressive Agenda.
.
 
Last edited:

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Are you for real realibrad? I've spent six years weighing that option, and the past two openly endorsing / pushing for it.

I'm surprised you had to ask, please start with the video he linked, it's a good explanation. As for some background context, I'll provide links to prior, related, topics to explain why it isn't a crazy idea.
  1. Our social contract.
  2. Capitalism needs a safety net.
  3. My Progressive Agenda.
.

Lol I dont follow people around, and I have not been active on this forum for 6 years. I'm also at work so I cant watch youtube.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,576
7,823
136
This thread is overly simplifying a complex issue. What do you mean by left-wing or right wing? Is it social liberalism v conservatism? Economic liberalism v conservatism? Capitalism v socialism v communism? Liberalism v totalitarianism? Democracy v autocracy? Just because the US is dominated by a two party system where it is easy to throw around "left v right", doesn't mean that the rest of the world's parties or parliaments can be explained by that simple dichotomy.

Yeah...just out of curiosity, what is the criteria that labels one to be on this "the left". Is it anyone that thinks Trump is not doing a good job. Last I saw, his approval ratings are in the high 30's %. So..does this mean that the other 60 something % are in this spurious "the left". Shit, thats a lot of lefty's. My 78 year old Republican all her life, born again christian, abortion hating mother in law who can't stand Trump would be surprised to know she is on "the left".
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Its kinda amazing how this thread turned out. I was under the impression that the OP had a secret agenda to cause harm, but what I see are people actively discussing the topic in good faith. Those same people also do not seem to be partaking in the discussion.

Its almost like it was not the OP that had the agenda...
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Universal Basic Income.

This is an interesting one to me. But in a way we have that here, just instead of money that can be used however one wants it is in the form or assisted rent and payments for food, free cell phone, etc. Different, but kind of the same I guess.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
968
395
136
This is an interesting one to me. But in a way we have that here, just instead of money that can be used however one wants it is in the form or assisted rent and payments for food, free cell phone, etc. Different, but kind of the same I guess.

Hahahaha, oh boy are you a fucking idiot.
 
Reactions: KMFJD

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
I'm surprised you had to ask, please start with the video he linked, it's a good explanation. As for some background context, I'll provide links to prior, related, topics to explain why it isn't a crazy idea.
  1. Our social contract.
  2. Capitalism needs a safety net.
  3. My Progressive Agenda.
.

What you're talking about reminds me of the "Expanse" series of sci-fi books, set a few hundred years in the future. The author posits that over half the inhabitants of Earth are on "basic support" which is a minimum subsistence stipend. The reason being that automation has replaced the need for most human labor.

I think people can debate this concept today until they're blue in the face, but it's something which will inevitably happen by necessity in the future. They're pretty much already there in Europe. The US will follow some time this century.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Spoken like the transparently dishonest retard that you are and without a hint of irony! Now please explain to all of us what UBI is so we can all laugh at your stupidity.


It is universal basic income, a base income provided by the government to citizens. This is the last reply I'll give you until you can ask a question without throwing piddly insults at me. You're impressing no one.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
968
395
136
I think people can debate this concept today until they're blue in the face, but it's something which will inevitably happen by necessity in the future. They're pretty much already there in Europe. The US will follow some time this century.

When the US is comprised of mentally defunct idiots like @SlowSpyder and their "no to socialist healthcare, yes to the ACA" screaming inbred buddies, that's a pipe dream.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
968
395
136
It is universal basic income, a base income provided by the government to citizens. This is the last reply I'll give you until you can ask a question without throwing piddly insults at me. You're impressing no one.

Ah, poor snowflake is offended. Harden the fuck up. Now explain how this is UBI or how it fits your definition so we can all laugh some more:

This is an interesting one to me. But in a way we have that here, just instead of money that can be used however one wants it is in the form or assisted rent and payments for food, free cell phone, etc. Different, but kind of the same I guess.

Also, not sure why you'd think I'm trying to impress anybody by calling you a fucking idiot... everybody can see that and uh.. thats not how you impress people. I'm just calling you an idiot... don't read too much into it (or maybe learn to comprehend what's being said to you).
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,843
9,092
136
What's funny is that I could see Universal Basic Income as being preferred to our current welfare system, especially amongst the more libertarian conservatives.

1. It would be far more equitable--every adult citizen would qualify regardless of income. Warren Buffet and Jeff Bezos would get their checks just like anyone else.
2. All other income-based social assistance programs would disappear--no more food stamps, temporary assistance, housing subsidies etc. Medicaid would be replaced with a universal healthcare system available to everyone, but people would still be expected to pay part of their bills since they are getting free money.
3. Much more personal responsibility than the current welfare system. If you spend your money poorly and don't have food to eat, tough shit. Learn your lesson for next month's paycheck. The government isn't responsible for bailing you out if you're a dumbshit.

Yes there would still be an issue of wealth transfer from the rich to the poor, but it could be much fairer (flat tax) rather than the current system of taxing certain groups at higher or lower rates. The anecdotal evidence available to date shows that in populations with universal income experiments, people are actually incentivized to work but don't have to worry about multiple jobs to make ends meet and can actually be around to raise their kids right. Societal benefits could be huge.
 
Reactions: dank69 and Jaskalas

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
When the US is comprised of mentally defunct idiots like @SlowSpyder and their "no to socialist healthcare, yes to the ACA" screaming inbred buddies, that's a pipe dream.

No, it isn't a pipe dream. The replacement of human labor by technology has been ongoing at least since the 1970's, and will continue indefinitely into the future. As long term unemployment continues to increase, at some point we'll reach a critical mass where if we don't provide for those who don't work, we'll face political and social unrest. What I'm talking about will happen pretty far in the future, at least 50 years from now. The political demographics of the country will be different then, and those conservatives who remain and cling to their opposition to social safety nets will be overruled. Unfortunately this is not something I believe will happen during my life time so don't think of me as being too optimistic.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |