Europeon Left vs. American Left

[jackstar7]

Its kinda amazing how this thread turned out. I was under the impression that the OP had a secret agenda to cause harm, but what I see are people actively discussing the topic in good faith. Those same people also do not seem to be partaking in the discussion.

Its almost like it was not the OP that had the agenda...

It's almost like the OP has this reputation for being a shithead that really taints any supposed genuine desire for discussions he might have.

Consequences: there are some.

 

[greatnoob]

No, it isn't a pipe dream. The replacement of human labor by technology has been ongoing at least since the 1970's, and will continue indefinitely into the future. As long term unemployment continues to increase, at some point we'll reach a critical mass where if we don't provide for those who don't work, we'll face political and social unrest. What I'm talking about will happen pretty far in the future, at least 50 years from now. The political demographics of the country will be different then, and those conservatives who remain and cling to their opposition to social safety nets will be overruled. Unfortunately this is not something I believe will happen during my life time so don't think of me as being too optimistic.

That's my point, you won't have any progressive economic policies in place until your voting demographic changes or when R voting retards like Slow die off (whichever comes first)

 

[Starbuck1975]

Hahahaha, oh boy are you a fucking idiot.

Spoken like the transparently dishonest retard that you are and without a hint of irony!

When the US is comprised of mentally defunct idiots

Ah, poor snowflake is offended. Harden the fuck up.

You still haven't explained why he is an idiot. I see a thread of people discussing the topic in good faith.

 

[SlowSpyder]

What's funny is that I could see Universal Basic Income as being preferred to our current welfare system, especially amongst the more libertarian conservatives.

1. It would be far more equitable--every adult citizen would qualify regardless of income. Warren Buffet and Jeff Bezos would get their checks just like anyone else.
2. All other income-based social assistance programs would disappear--no more food stamps, temporary assistance, housing subsidies etc. Medicaid would be replaced with a universal healthcare system available to everyone, but people would still be expected to pay part of their bills since they are getting free money.
3. Much more personal responsibility than the current welfare system. If you spend your money poorly and don't have food to eat, tough shit. Learn your lesson for next month's paycheck. The government isn't responsible for bailing you out if you're a dumbshit.

Yes there would still be an issue of wealth transfer from the rich to the poor, but it could be much fairer (flat tax) rather than the current system of taxing certain groups at higher or lower rates. The anecdotal evidence available to date shows that in populations with universal income experiments, people are actually incentivized to work but don't have to worry about multiple jobs to make ends meet and can actually be around to raise their kids right. Societal benefits could be huge.

Careful, you just compared UBI to welfare and other social program assistance.

 

[greatnoob]

You still haven't explained why he is an idiot. I see a thread of people discussing the topic in good faith.

Then that makes you an idiot too then. Explain to us (according to Slow) how your imaginary "UBI" works when it doesn't even fit the definition of UBI that Slow himself gave.

Also great effort on your part for quoting me and taking the time to remove context, amazing work Bernie-voting concern troll!

 

[Starbuck1975]

Then that makes you an idiot too then. Explain to us (according to Slow) how your imaginary "UBI" works when it doesn't even fit the definition of UBI that Slow himself gave.

I was referring to the broader more interesting topic, not your petulant rant about the semantics of universal basic income in your lame attempt to score a gotcha moment.

 

[greatnoob]

I was referring to the broader more interesting topic, not your petulant rant about the semantics of universal basic income in your lame attempt to score a gotcha moment.

He's already been called out for concern trolling and being dumb as a brick. Like you (and DSF and other supposed centrists) he too is/was a lefty/Bernie voter! I called him a fucking idiot because he clearly doesn't know what UBI is lol, happy?

 

[SlowSpyder]

Then that makes you an idiot too then. Explain to us (according to Slow) how your imaginary "UBI" works when it doesn't even fit the definition of UBI that Slow himself gave.

Also great effort on your part for quoting me and taking the time to remove context, amazing work Bernie-voting concern troll!

This is what I said.

This is an interesting one to me. But in a way we have that here, just instead of money that can be used however one wants it is in the form or assisted rent and payments for food, free cell phone, etc. Different, but kind of the same I guess.

Both are moneys given by the government to people. A UBI is to all citizens, the programs I cited are based on certain requirements. You're acting like an asshole over nothing. Look at the bolded too. FFS, you petulant child.

 

[realibrad]

It's almost like the OP has this reputation for being a shithead that really taints any supposed genuine desire for discussions he might have.

Consequences: there are some.

If you are so paranoid that you take a simple question to be evidence of a conspiracy, then I have some information about chem trails you may want to read up on.

 

[realibrad]

Well, it looks like people got upset that a genuine discussion was happening and have come to cause the thing they predicted so they could be right.

Burn it down to prove that someone would burn it down.

 

[greatnoob]

This is what I said.



Both are moneys given by the government to people. A UBI is to all citizens, the programs I cited are based on certain requirements. You're acting like an asshole over nothing. Look at the bolded too. FFS, you petulant child.

Hahahaa, "different but same I guess." Does that one sentence of yours have any meaning to you? You're probably too stupid to know what a paradox is so I won't even bother. You still haven't explained to me what your "UBI" is even after you so generously defined it for us and made yourself look dumb. I'm eagerly waiting for an answer.

Also how's that extra $85 working out for you my rich buddy? I don't know why you were so ecstatic about being paid pennies for such a (self-confessed) rich bloke like yourself. LOL.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Hahahaa, "different but same I guess." Does that one sentence of yours have any meaning to you? You're probably too stupid to know what a paradox is so I won't even bother. You still haven't explained to me what your "UBI" is even after you so generously defined it for us and made yourself look dumb. I'm eagerly waiting for an answer.

Also how's that extra $85 working out for you my rich buddy? I don't know why you were so ecstatic about being paid pennies for such a (self-confessed) rich bloke like yourself. LOL.

I've explained it, read my posts again. Or don't.

Please quote the post where I said I was rich.

The extra money is working out great. Going to buy a new gun with it (finally getting my PMR30) then going to put a good chunk of it going forward into my retirement. Thanks for asking.

 

[jackstar7]

If you are so paranoid that you take a simple question to be evidence of a conspiracy, then I have some information about chem trails you may want to read up on.

Of course you do. I assume it's all bookmarked.

And you mistake skepticism for paranoia. That's surely not going to have larger consequences beyond your message board interactions.

 

[greatnoob]

I've explained it, read my posts again. Or don't.

Please quote the post where I said I was rich.

The extra money is working out great. Going to buy a new gun with it (finally getting my PMR30) then going to put a good chunk of it going forward into my retirement. Thanks for asking.

So please tell us once again as per your definition how getting a base income from the gov is similar to whatever vague non-monetary welfare systems you described. "Different but same I guess". Idiot.


I'll bet you $85 that mostly everybody on these forums makes significantly more than an uneducated moron like you (especially when you get giddy for only $85, hahaha cheapskate enjoy the saving fest you'll be undertaking in a few years!):

Bandwagon cheerleading... nice touch. And I'd say not at all. Watching a bunch of people, that quite possibly pay less into the system than I do, argue that I need to pay more in taxes has been entertaining for me and helps reaffirm things.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

Most european countries don't have a 2 party system (which in the US is a consequence of having winner takes all districts), so there are many parties spread over the whole spectrum.

 

[realibrad]

Of course you do. I assume it's all bookmarked.

And you mistake skepticism for paranoia. That's surely not going to have larger consequences beyond your message board interactions.

Skeptic of what motive? What possible harm could come from this? If you believe that a question asked could somehow do anything other than start a discussion, then you are paranoid and not just skeptical.

Asking the difference between EU Left and NA Left is harmless, and yet it was treated otherwise. Its paranoia to think that anyone that does not already have an opinion is trying to do something sneaky.

 

[realibrad]

Most european countries don't have a 2 party system (which in the US is a consequence of having winner takes all districts), so there are many parties spread over the whole spectrum.

Is the Spectrum binary though. If it is, then you can have a Left and a Right which all would fall into. In the US system, that is generally how people are labeled.

Green party, Left. Tea Party, Right. Green Tea party, an AA meeting.

 

[UNCjigga]

Careful, you just compared UBI to welfare and other social program assistance.

OK let me be clearer--UBI is not comparable to other welfare/assistance programs, but UBI would eliminate the need for those programs.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

Is the Spectrum binary though. If it is, then you can have a Left and a Right which all would fall into. In the US system, that is generally how people are labeled.

Green party, Left. Tea Party, Right. Green Tea party, an AA meeting.

You can have pro immigration left, anti immigration left, pro environment right, pro choice right etc.

I determine left/right based on social economic policy.

 

[realibrad]

You can have pro immigration left, anti immigration left, pro environment right, pro choice right etc.

I determine left/right based on social economic policy.

But if you look at all of the views of that party, they either fit overall on the left, or overall on the right. Generally the ideas will fall inline with the underlying ideology and its not common to have conflicts beyond one or two issues.

 

[Jaskalas]

This is an interesting one to me. But in a way we have that here, just instead of money that can be used however one wants it is in the form or assisted rent and payments for food, free cell phone, etc. Different, but kind of the same I guess.

What we have here is a hodgepodge of bureaucratic strings that are either ineffective or trap people into poverty.

Basic Income is more of a libertarian / free market style of "welfare". The goal of helping people is similar, but the expanse and reach of the program is much greater, with the intention of having a much more positive impact on people's lives. And any work they do find is not at the expense of the assistance, but will instead add to their total income. It really needs to be its own topic. There is so much more to say on it.

Which is interesting, because while Europe is trying to wrap its head around the idea, it hasn't happened yet. And we have people here in America pushing for it, myself included. One wonders how that fits into the topic's question of defining American Left vs European Left. I mean, America has a man like Bernie Sanders. But because he is not elevated by the Democrats we are to assume the American "Left" is... weaker, than our European counterparts?

And, what in blazes does "Left" even mean? We should define that for the benefit of the topic. We talking government control over capital?

Which, again, can be muddy and confusing as a definition... as Europe has a LOT of restrictive labor laws that something further "left" (basic income) would help eliminate. From that perspective it appears most the hoops and strings that apply to authoritarian governments (control of the market) are found in the "center".

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

And, what in blazes does "Left" even mean? We should define that for the benefit of the topic. We talking government control over capital?

Honestly, it means 'us' or 'them', depending on your political leanings/who you voted for last cycle. All the lines are so damned blurry aside from a few idiotic talking points, that the word doesn't even carry it's own weight, much less greater.

Everything can be defined by 'branching progressive' 'regressive' or 'lateral', akin to the evolution branching of a species. American left/right/democrats/republicans each have things that fall within the scope of those three things, depending on the given topic.

 

[jackstar7]

I wonder if the OP and a few other folks in this thread have a passport.

Sorry, a U.S. passport, not a Russian one.

 

[zinfamous]

Do you consider the puritianical nanny-statism that's commonly deployed by American Democratic party as being a left-wing phenomenom? If so then the U.S. left is actually far outpacing their European counterparts.

wow, now democrats are being accused of puritanicalism? What happened to the free-willing, GODLESS, free-love, lawless ultra leftwing hippy vibe that you guys have been lumping on the dems for the better part of the last century?

slow down, bro, and get your blanket accusations in line first.

 

[realibrad]

I wonder if the OP and a few other folks in this thread have a passport.

Sorry, a U.S. passport, not a Russian one.

Would I be correct in assuming that I would be included as one of those "folks"?