Europeon Left vs. American Left

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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
After reading this over with my GF, I think I see what you are getting wrong.

Post 1 from sdifox.



He questions the usage of puritanical.

Further context given in post 2 from sdifox.



What I think you and sdifox are having trouble with, is the association of puritanical with the puritans. So, a group may have traits that may not be connected to other traits beyond being part of that group. The adjective puritanical has this definition "practicing or affecting strict religious or moral behavior." That means something could be puritanical if it is religious or moral. I believe you are getting stuck on the fact that the Puritans were a religious group and thus any connection must also be associated to religion. I believe this is sdifox's belief as well as he references things that are part of the Religious Right such as pro-life. He also says that Puritans left because of liberals, so to use puritanical to describe the left would be incorrect. That is, however, not how words work.

For example, think of Nazi. Someone can be a grammar Nazi. Grammar is not a political issue inherently, but when the term is used, it does not imply anything political. That is because Nazi in this sense is used to describe someone that is very strict. This is also how puritanical is being used. To call someone puritanical-x is to say that they are either very concerned with religious OR moral behavior.

So when Glenn said puritanical nanny-statism, he is saying that there is a group (in his opinion the left) that is practicing strict moral nanny-statism. His usage is correct, and just because Puritans would be considered on the Right today, does not change that the adjective puritanical can be disassociated with religious. We know this by its definition.
And in the good ole USoA, which party pushes a Puritan nanny state agenda? Not that they want to adhere to it themselves, just want others to adhere to it.

It's a lot of time and effort you're investing here to basically say that some people have strict moral guidelines, regardless of political affiliation.

My point remains the same, you will find one party in the USA that pushes a Puritan nanny state agenda, and ifs not liberals. You must realize this by now, yet d
Focus on a single word to play with. Nobody is buying it, and Glenn makes it clear that he's not a big fan of liberals, so the context in his jab to his opposing party is not hard to see.

By all means, start showing me where I am wrong. Links to cons loosening up and libs tightening up.
 
Last edited:

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,212
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Firstly, there are two different related senses of 'puritan'. There's the meaning specifically related to sexual issues, and there's the wider sense of adhering to a narrow and intolerant ideology. But the two do seem closely related.

The (real, as opposed to liberal) left in Protestant countries does often seem to manifest a distorted version of the puritanism of that wider Protestant culture - far left sects have been known to ruthlessly police the lives of their membership. And nobody has a stronger 'Protestant work ethic' than an ultra-leftist, running around selling papers and organizing meetings 24/7 as if their life depended on it. That's how they get to take over states and parties.

But that's the actual left, not liberals. The Chinese Communist Party, for example, has always had a strongly puritanical streak, in both senses of the word (and Mao having been - by some accounts - a full-on Weinstein, just makes that all the more consistent with puritans of all political persuasions. It's pretty normal for the puritan-in-chief to turn out not to be following their own rules, see also any number of conservative Christians or Islamists).

The differences are in what people get puritanical about. Libertarians seem to get decidedly puritanical about the finer details of private property rights and contracts, for example.

Also, Liberals, being in the middle, can display puritanical traits from either side of the spectrum e.g. Tipper Gore and her parental advisory notices. And insofar as people are non-puritanical, they tend to lose.

The awkard fact is, in many situations it's only the puritans (in the not-specifically sex-related sense) who are at all effective. Look what happened to the Mensheviks or the centrists in 1930's Germany.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,217
15,787
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So, realibrad please tell me which of these two groups you consider to be more puritanical than the other.

Group A : anti abortion, pro gun, for Christianity beliefs in public school, anti prostitution

Group B: for abortion, against gun, against religious teachings in public school, ambivolent on prostitution.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
So, realibrad please tell me which of these two groups you consider to be more puritanical than the other.

Group A : anti abortion, pro gun, for Christianity beliefs in public school, anti prostitution

Group B: for abortion, against gun, against religious teachings in public school, ambivolent on prostitution.

Group a obviously, but that still misses the point. A group, any group that practices or pushes strict moral behavior is puritanical. Again, puritanical is an adjective and it does not always mean or connect to religion.

Group B could be puritanical if the followers express themselves as fervently. I think that you are still missing that the usage here is a way to denote what is effectively intensity.

So a group could strongly believe in nanny-stateism and push those ideals due to their strong moral convections. Make sense?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Firstly, there are two different related senses of 'puritan'. There's the meaning specifically related to sexual issues, and there's the wider sense of adhering to a narrow and intolerant ideology. But the two do seem closely related.

...

Thank you. It's nice to see someone address the topic instead of just throwing around insults.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,217
15,787
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Group a obviously, but that still misses the point. A group, any group that practices or pushes strict moral behavior is puritanical. Again, puritanical is an adjective and it does not always mean or connect to religion.

Group B could be puritanical if the followers express themselves as fervently. I think that you are still missing that the usage here is a way to denote what is effectively intensity.

So a group could strongly believe in nanny-stateism and push those ideals due to their strong moral convections. Make sense?


Glenn implied the Democrats are more puritanical than the Republicans, which is contrary to reality.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
So, realibrad please tell me which of these two groups you consider to be more puritanical than the other.

Group A : anti abortion, pro gun, for Christianity beliefs in public school, anti prostitution

Group B: for abortion, against gun, against religious teachings in public school, ambivolent on prostitution.

And that's the point. I've yet to encounter any liberals or lefties in my travels that are for restricting the rights of others based on some kind of moral superiority.

The basics, don't infringe on the rights of others, and you're doing fine.

Cons or righties on the other hand...

This is the context of Glenn's post.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Glenn implied the Democrats are more puritanical than the Republicans, which is contrary to reality.

No, and if that is what you thought, then I see the issue. Glenn is not saying that the Democrats are more puritanical, he said they were more puritanical in their nanny-statism. This is why I keep bringing up that its used as an adjective to modify the compound noun.

Think of it like this. Conservatives are better at keeping things the same, and Liberals are better at not keeping things the same. It would seem silly to say that better is a Conservative or Liberal description right? Puritanical can be used to describe someone that practices strict moral behavior. Now, if you dont know what morals they adhere to, then you cannot know Conservative or Liberal until you see the noun that is used. In this case nanny-statism which then denotes Liberal given Glenn's context. Thus, puritanical was used correctly.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
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Hey, I thought we did pretty well.

You and sdifox did well enough, but the "others" were darkswordsman17, jackstar7, brycejones, ivwshane, all of which did nothing to progress anything and simply posted shit. I give credit to pmv for being able to reach you when I could not, but I think its pretty clear now that puritanical was used correctly, and I was right in my position. I have no illusion of the impact of this on a tech forum, but the idiots that I just named have a habit of doing this. I will at least say that Jack tried to have a discussion for a short time, but the other 3 are useless as of right now.
 

Alpha One Seven

Golden Member
Sep 11, 2017
1,098
124
66
I always hear that the American left is more like a central-right group compared to the left in Europe. Just out of curiosity, what are some of the causes the European left is for? What is typical legislation they'd like to see pushed through? What are examples that make them that much more left? Just curious, I hear it a lot but am unsure of just what the differences are. I know we have some international members here, maybe they can chime in.
Socialism by any other name is still Socialism. Put up with enough Socialism long enough and you wake up in a Communist country one day wondering how it happened.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
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And that's the point. I've yet to encounter any liberals or lefties in my travels that are for restricting the rights of others based on some kind of moral superiority.

The basics, don't infringe on the rights of others, and you're doing fine.

Cons or righties on the other hand...

This is the context of Glenn's post.
Then you haven't traveled very far.

Liberals tend not to play the religious morality card, but they certainly assert a smug pseudo-intellectual superiority, and while they don't infringe on the rights of others based on identity, they are certainly capable of imposing on individual liberties based on "thoughtcrimes".

I've encountered highly educated liberals who say all the "right" things, but are hypocritical Nimbyists, and I've also lived in closed minded rural red state communities where I've also witnessed acts of kindness at a human level you rarely see in cities.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
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Seems amazing, but did you know that posting that you are not going to take part, then posting again about how you are not taking part is actually taking part? I'm sure it must be hard for you not to give your opinion about how you don't want to give your opinion. Perhaps, and I'm sure this seems like a crazy idea, but if you don't want to take part, don't post.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
Then you haven't traveled very far.

Liberals tend not to play the religious morality card, but they certainly assert a smug pseudo-intellectual superiority, and while they don't infringe on the rights of others based on identity, they are certainly capable of imposing on individual liberties based on "thoughtcrimes".

I've encountered highly educated liberals who say all the "right" things, but are hypocritical Nimbyists, and I've also lived in closed minded rural red state communities where I've also witnessed acts of kindness at a human level you rarely see in cities.

Smug intellectualism. Let me go check that Puritan definition again...

The assertion was puritanical nanny stateism pushed by left wingers, which is obviously not accurate.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,217
15,787
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No, and if that is what you thought, then I see the issue. Glenn is not saying that the Democrats are more puritanical, he said they were more puritanical in their nanny-statism. This is why I keep bringing up that its used as an adjective to modify the compound noun.

Think of it like this. Conservatives are better at keeping things the same, and Liberals are better at not keeping things the same. It would seem silly to say that better is a Conservative or Liberal description right? Puritanical can be used to describe someone that practices strict moral behavior. Now, if you dont know what morals they adhere to, then you cannot know Conservative or Liberal until you see the noun that is used. In this case nanny-statism which then denotes Liberal given Glenn's context. Thus, puritanical was used correctly.


So what is an example of puritanical nanny-statism?
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,345
15,156
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So what is an example of puritanical nanny-statism?

If I had to come up with examples one would be the big gulp ban or whatever it was in new York. They are far and few in between though and hardly an example of a puritanical party.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
If I had to come up with examples one would be the big gulp ban or whatever it was in new York. They are far and few in between though and hardly an example of a puritanical party.
I could see that. I mean, gluttony is a deadly sin.

It's also a major health hazard.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Smug intellectualism. Let me go check that Puritan definition again...

The assertion was puritanical nanny stateism pushed by left wingers, which is obviously not accurate.
I love threads on the semantics of words that mean different things depending on the context
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
I love threads on the semantics of words that mean different things depending on the context
Most of it is relative. I can't see the idea that Puritan nanny stateism is a left wing phenomenon in USoA. I don't see that in my neck of the woods, or when I go other places.

I'm in New England, and I'll say this...we're definitely more blunt and coarse in our interactions than other places I've been.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
The American Left still supports/endures Capitalism.

The European Left, on the otherhand, is, like, actually Left.

/thread


As in you'd say the European left is more socialist? That's what I've seen too, though there seems to be a rising praise of socialism here. Bernie wasn't afraid to say it and came from nowhere to give Hillary a real run for the nomination.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
As in you'd say the European left is more socialist? That's what I've seen too, though there seems to be a rising praise of socialism here. Bernie wasn't afraid to say it and came from nowhere to give Hillary a real run for the nomination.

From wiki: Socialized medicine is a term used in the United States to describe and discuss systems of universal health care: medical and hospital care for all at a nominal cost by means of government regulation of health care and subsidies derived from taxation.[1] Because of historically negative associations with socialism in American culture, the term is usually used pejoratively in American political discourse.[2][3][4][5][6] The term was first widely used in the United States by advocates of the American Medical Association in opposition to President Harry S. Truman's 1947 health-care initiative.[7][8][9]
So called socialist ideas have been around for decades.
 
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