Europeon Left vs. American Left

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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
So what is an example of puritanical nanny-statism?

So you have to break up what is being said. So, puritanical means following or forcing strict moral beliefs on others. Nanny-statism is the enactment of laws that prohibit personal choice. So CA is a great example because of how many laws they have, and I used to live there. They (LA) have laws like you must wear a condom for all male porn actors. The smoking age is now 21. Beer with caffeine is banned. in SF, McDonald's cannot sell Happy Meals with toys in them.

These are all laws based on the idea that people should not be able to choose because it conflicts with their moral beliefs. Its so disagreeable that they passed these laws to prohibit people from doing them.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,019
8,055
136
Socialism by any other name is still Socialism. Put up with enough Socialism long enough and you wake up in a Communist country one day wondering how it happened.

If we propose to help people via tax dollars, you'd call that socialism, whereby we'll wake up one day in slavery to Stalin or Mao?
Public roads, police, and fire services are paid for by taxes. By your idea, the Republic has already fallen?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I like that asking for an example was a shit post in the Book of Brad.

This was your shit post.

What ARE words anyways? amirite, brosephalops?

This next post is confusing because it has nothing to do with the topic.

I didn't see you demonstrate how nanny state ideas are moralistic in nature.

That is simply a complete misunderstanding of what I had said. pmv got it, but it does not look like you can. Nobody said nanny-statism is more or less moralistic. In fact, the enactment of those laws does stem from a moral belief that others must be compelled to follow.

That said, I am not finding much utility in responding to you as more of your posts are one liners that have nothing to do with a discussion. You seem ill equipped to have a discussion. I can't tell if that comes from an inability or an unwillingness on your part, but I may respond less and less if I can't find a useful path to go down.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,964
16,214
126
So you have to break up what is being said. So, puritanical means following or forcing strict moral beliefs on others. Nanny-statism is the enactment of laws that prohibit personal choice. So CA is a great example because of how many laws they have, and I used to live there. They (LA) have laws like you must wear a condom for all male porn actors. The smoking age is now 21. Beer with caffeine is banned. in SF, McDonald's cannot sell Happy Meals with toys in them.

These are all laws based on the idea that people should not be able to choose because it conflicts with their moral beliefs. Its so disagreeable that they passed these laws to prohibit people from doing them.


Condom - health related
Happy meal toy - advertising related
Beer with caffeine - health related
None of which is morality dictated, rather science based.
 
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soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
Condom - health related
Happy meal toy - advertising related
Beer with caffeine - health related
None of which is morality dictated, rather science based.
Actually I thought the Happy Meal toy was health related, chocking hazard.
Maybe I’m wrong.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,964
16,214
126
Actually I thought the Happy Meal toy was health related, chocking hazard.
Maybe I’m wrong.


I could be wrong of course. I thought it was about using toys to entice kids. At least that is what they talk about here. Still happening here though.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Condom - health related
Happy meal toy - advertising related
Beer with caffeine - health related
None of which is morality dictated, rather science based.

Okay, so do you not understand what nanny-stateism is then?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/nanny-state

Nanny-State
- a government that tries to give too much advice or make too many laws about how people should live their lives, especially about eating, smoking, or drinking alcohol.

I think you have not only misunderstood puritanical but also what a nanny-state is. A nanny-state law is a law that decides for people what they can and cannot do often in terms of health. These are not laws that effect 3rd parties. Puritanical was used to express that the idea that people pushing nanny-state laws are pushing their belief that people should not have the option to harm themselves. That stems from a moral belief. So, a person should not be able to buy beer with caffeine because of the risk of self harm because its immoral to let people make bad choices.

So do you now understand what nanny-stateism and puritanical mean and how they can be used together? Perhaps you missed this post from pmv that also explains some of this?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Actually I thought the Happy Meal toy was health related, chocking hazard.
Maybe I’m wrong.

No, it he was right in the context. He just seems to misunderstand what nanny-statism is.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/30/san-francisco-happy-meal-ban_n_1121186.html

The ban targets Happy Meal-style toys, claiming that the inclusion of an incentive item unfairly targets marketing at children who are unable to make healthy decisions for themselves. Though it was slammed by critics who claimed the ban enforced “nanny state” politics, the ordinance was easily passed by the Board of Supervisors in an 8-3 vote. Supervisor Eric Mar, who has a young daughter, introduced the ban, arguing that the “pester power” of a young child seduced by the toys can be enough to persuade parents to buy the unhealthy meals.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,964
16,214
126
Okay, so do you not understand what nanny-stateism is then?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/nanny-state

Nanny-State
- a government that tries to give too much advice or make too many laws about how people should live their lives, especially about eating, smoking, or drinking alcohol.

I think you have not only misunderstood puritanical but also what a nanny-state is. A nanny-state law is a law that decides for people what they can and cannot do often in terms of health. These are not laws that effect 3rd parties. Puritanical was used to express that the idea that people pushing nanny-state laws are pushing their belief that people should not have the option to harm themselves. That stems from a moral belief. So, a person should not be able to buy beer with caffeine because of the risk of self harm because its immoral to let people make bad choices.

So do you now understand what nanny-stateism and puritanical mean and how they can be used together? Perhaps you missed this post from pmv that also explains some of this?


It is not nanny-statism I had issues with, it was puritanical. The concept of puritanical nanny-statism is just ludicrus.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
It is not nanny-statism I had issues with, it was puritanical. The concept of puritanical nanny-statism is just ludicrus.

Its it ludicrous to say grammar-nazi? Did you read the post by pmv?

How about this, why don't you tell me what you think puritanical means?
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,644
8,530
136
Socialism by any other name is still Socialism. Put up with enough Socialism long enough and you wake up in a Communist country one day wondering how it happened.

Do you have any examples of that actually happening?

Technically, socialism is supposed to be the transitional stage on the way to communism, in the sense that communism is what you get once the state 'withers away' under socialism. In practice the state showed no sign of withering. I have to assume though that you are using the words in some other way (communism as some sort of 'worse' kind of socialism?)

The actual historical record seems to be that if you put up with monarchism or absolutism or fascism for long enough, you wake up in a communist country one day. And if you put up with communism for long enough you wake up in a capitalist country one day. And if you put up with capitalism for long enough you wake up in a fascist country one day.

That seems to be how it has worked, historically speaking, in the real world.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
This was your shit post.



This next post is confusing because it has nothing to do with the topic.



That is simply a complete misunderstanding of what I had said. pmv got it, but it does not look like you can. Nobody said nanny-statism is more or less moralistic. In fact, the enactment of those laws does stem from a moral belief that others must be compelled to follow.

That said, I am not finding much utility in responding to you as more of your posts are one liners that have nothing to do with a discussion. You seem ill equipped to have a discussion. I can't tell if that comes from an inability or an unwillingness on your part, but I may respond less and less if I can't find a useful path to go down.
You should probably avail yourself of the ignore functionality on the board if you think my signal:noise is not meeting your requirements for discourse. I mean you only quoted 2 of 3 posts, the third being the one that asked you a clear question.

Tootles.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,558
15,444
136
Its it ludicrous to say grammar-nazi? Did you read the post by pmv?

How about this, why don't you tell me what you think puritanical means?

Seriously just shut the fuck up. You were wrong, we explained why and then you decided that the adjective used was no longer relevant.

You constantly buckshit threads and its extremely annoying and unnecessary as its widely known that you are capable of having good discussions.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
So you have to break up what is being said. So, puritanical means following or forcing strict moral beliefs on others. Nanny-statism is the enactment of laws that prohibit personal choice. So CA is a great example because of how many laws they have, and I used to live there. They (LA) have laws like you must wear a condom for all male porn actors. The smoking age is now 21. Beer with caffeine is banned. in SF, McDonald's cannot sell Happy Meals with toys in them.

These are all laws based on the idea that people should not be able to choose because it conflicts with their moral beliefs. Its so disagreeable that they passed these laws to prohibit people from doing them.
Mandatory condoms, smoking and happy meals.

Explain the morality of these examples as you see it.

You just state without any evidence to support it that these are in place preventing a choice you think people should have for... reasons? Oh! Is it freedom?! I hope it's freedom.

I want any infringement on freedom to be immoral in the Book of Brad.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,697
8,099
136
Do you have any examples of that actually happening?

Technically, socialism is supposed to be the transitional stage on the way to communism, in the sense that communism is what you get once the state 'withers away' under socialism. In practice the state showed no sign of withering. I have to assume though that you are using the words in some other way (communism as some sort of 'worse' kind of socialism?)

The actual historical record seems to be that if you put up with monarchism or absolutism or fascism for long enough, you wake up in a communist country one day. And if you put up with communism for long enough you wake up in a capitalist country one day. And if you put up with capitalism for long enough you wake up in a fascist country one day.

That seems to be how it has worked, historically speaking, in the real world.
In reality, socialism that exists in a functional democracy becomes Social Democracy, whereby there is still free enterprise for some aspects of the economy that are not essential for everyday life, and government-run aspects of society that remove the profit motive to ensure that everyone is getting requirements without those requirements acting as a stranglehold on the citizens of that country.

Which is why, unlike the Ronald-Reagan paraphrase of Alpha One Seven, socialism operating under functional democracy becomes what we see in Western Europe and Scandinavia - high-tax, high-service countries. We see with those socialist countries above-average GDPs, and much higher levels of self-reported happiness and well-being than countries where private companies control whether citizens of that country can "afford" shelter, power, heat, communications, education and healthcare. You know, whether citizens can afford to become functioning citizens based typically on how wealthy they were born, and whether they were lucky or not growing up.

Here in "capitalist" countries, the poor, middle class, and upper middle class are pitted against each other for always-decreasing services as the people who own and operate that country take more for themselves and class-shame everyone else for not being born a multimillionaire.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,673
26,795
136
Seems amazing, but did you know that posting that you are not going to take part, then posting again about how you are not taking part is actually taking part? I'm sure it must be hard for you not to give your opinion about how you don't want to give your opinion. Perhaps, and I'm sure this seems like a crazy idea, but if you don't want to take part, don't post.

@realibrad meh....
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
You should probably avail yourself of the ignore functionality on the board if you think my signal:noise is not meeting your requirements for discourse. I mean you only quoted 2 of 3 posts, the third being the one that asked you a clear question.

Tootles.

And I answered your clear question. Still does not make your first post a shit post.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Seriously just shut the fuck up. You were wrong, we explained why and then you decided that the adjective used was no longer relevant.

You constantly buckshit threads and its extremely annoying and unnecessary as its widely known that you are capable of having good discussions.

I'm not wrong. pmv is not wrong. The definitions are clear as day, yet nobody wants to agree with the dictionary which is strange, given this whole thing started when someone questioned if the use of a word was correct.

Nobody, not once has showed where I was wrong on this.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Mandatory condoms, smoking and happy meals.

Explain the morality of these examples as you see it.

You just state without any evidence to support it that these are in place preventing a choice you think people should have for... reasons? Oh! Is it freedom?! I hope it's freedom.

I want any infringement on freedom to be immoral in the Book of Brad.

Jesus.

Okay, ill go deeper, but again pmv and I have already explained this.

Moral -
1. concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.

2. holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct.

Puritanical -
practicing or affecting strict religious or moral behavior.

Nanny-state -
a government that tries to give too much advice or make too many laws about how people should live their lives, especially about eating, smoking, or drinking alcohol.

Now, try to follow. Puritanical nanny-state = a state that has laws about how people should live their lives, including what they should eat, smoke, drink based on a strict moral view. Moral meaning holding high principles of proper conduct is used to justify the laws enacted. So a puritanical nanny-state is a state that enacts laws on how people should live based on its belief of principle and proper conduct. Puritanical denotes that its pushed upon people strongly.

Its really just that simple.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Yeah, those things are health issues and not moral issues, so not puritanical, in spite of all you've laid out.

Jesus, indeed.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Yeah, those things are health issues and not moral issues, so not puritanical, in spite of all you've laid out.

Jesus, indeed.

I think the issue that you can't understand what is being discussed. The relevant information is there.

How is it not about morality? How are the terms mutually exclusive? Bet you a McDonald's $10 gift card you can't give a coherent answer to those which shows I'm wrong.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
I think the issue that you can't understand what is being discussed. The relevant information is there.

How is it not about morality? How are the terms mutually exclusive? Bet you a McDonald's $10 gift card you can't give a coherent answer to those which shows I'm wrong.
You didn't lay out evidence to prove you are right. But yeah, I can't prove a negative. You can just send me $10 via Steam or Paypal. Let me know what's easier.

How are which things mutually exclusive? You used some pronouns where I think specificity would have been better.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
You didn't lay out evidence to prove you are right. But yeah, I can't prove a negative. You can just send me $10 via Steam or Paypal. Let me know what's easier.

How are which things mutually exclusive? You used some pronouns where I think specificity would have been better.

First, I did provide evidence. I gave the definitions and the sources of those definitions.

Second, this is not an instance of proving a negative. You clearly do not know what that means. I would suggest looking that up too, but it appears you may not know how to look up the meaning of things.

It has now become clear that you are completely unable to understand this discussion. All further responses will likely be me just referring back to posts already made.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,964
16,214
126
Its it ludicrous to say grammar-nazi? Did you read the post by pmv?

How about this, why don't you tell me what you think puritanical means?

Nanny-state = over protective state that enact laws to protect its citizen even if said citizen did not ask for protection
Puritanical = strict laws based on a set of morals, often religious in nature.

Nanny state has nothing to do with morals. Nanny state enact laws to protect you even if you don't want it to. These laws are evidence based, not morality driven. Thus puritanical nanny state is not a possibility.

Your examples of puritanical nanny-statism have nothing puritanical.
 
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