Europeon Left vs. American Left

[VRAMdemon]

Again...who makes up this "American left". It's used in such broad and blurred lines. What is the criteria that puts this label on oneself. I hear the left is butthurt about Trump. The left wants socialized medicine, the left this, the left that. Some of use don't use labels to categorize people with a broad brush.

 

[mect]

I think a lot of what is portrayed here about the European left vs the American left is hyperbole. The main difference is that the European left has been much more successful getting their policies implemented. I think this is largely due to the right instilling so much fear into the public of anything that can be labelled socialism, possibly a fallout of the cold war. This is why countries in Europe have a much better social safety net, socialized health care, stronger union protections and worker protections in general, and a lot more vacation time. In America, we seem to view working and economic production as the highest virtue. In Europe, they are much more concerned with quality of life. Just my personal impressions, I haven't researched the subject.

 

[hal2kilo]

Again...who makes up this "American left". It's used in such broad and blurred lines. What is the criteria that puts this label on oneself. I hear the left is butthurt about Trump. The left wants socialized medicine, the left this, the left that. Some of use don't use labels to categorize people with a broad brush.

Paying for things that the people want through taxes in real time seems to be a leftist meme. (You know, to fix that horrible deficit problem, that's apparently of no concern to the current party in power). How dare we.

 

[Starbuck1975]

He's already been called out for concern trolling and being dumb as a brick. Like you (and DSF and other supposed centrists) he too is/was a lefty/Bernie voter! I called him a fucking idiot because he clearly doesn't know what UBI is lol, happy?

I am very happy because you've conclusively answered the OPs question. The difference between the European left and American left is that the American left contains smug intellectuals such as yourself.

 

[realibrad]

Again...who makes up this "American left". It's used in such broad and blurred lines. What is the criteria that puts this label on oneself. I hear the left is butthurt about Trump. The left wants socialized medicine, the left this, the left that. Some of use don't use labels to categorize people with a broad brush.

The same type of people that think anyone who thinks socialized medicine might have some downsides makes them a fascist or conservative.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I wonder if the OP and a few other folks in this thread have a passport.

Sorry, a U.S. passport, not a Russian one.

I do not have a passport but plan on getting one soon. I have to travel to Manila for work eventually and would really like some fishing trips to Canada.

 

[jackstar7]

Would I be correct in assuming that I would be included as one of those "folks"?

You should learn the lesson you've been hammering into me. Don't assume.

 

[woolfe9998]

That's my point, you won't have any progressive economic policies in place until your voting demographic changes or when R voting retards like Slow die off (whichever comes first)

Hence why I drew an analogy to a science fiction series which takes place 200 years in the future. I'm suggesting that this safety net is inevitable due to technological displacement of human labor. Not that it's going to happen soon.

 

[realibrad]

You should learn the lesson you've been hammering into me. Don't assume.

Except sparky, I asked you and did not run off based on the assumption. Amazing eh?

 

[twjr]

The same type of people that think anyone who thinks socialized medicine might have some downsides makes them a fascist or conservative.

Ridiculous. Many conservative parties in the rest of the developed world would be classed as "left wing" under you definition. The bugbear that US conservatives have with socialised medicine is relatively isolated to US conservatives.

I would argue that this thread would be better titled "European right vs American Right". There are more differences between the conservative parties in much of the rest of the world and the Republicans than there are between the Democrats and rest of the world liberal parties. In Australia and New Zealand there only minor elements in parliament that are similar to the Republicans. Religious conservatism is non-existent in New Zealand politics and rapidly retreating in Australia.

 

[realibrad]

Ridiculous. Many conservative parties in the rest of the developed world would be classed as "left wing" under you definition. The bugbear that US conservatives have with socialised medicine is relatively isolated to US conservatives.

Read what I said again, and you may understand what I said. People that call anyone who thinks there are some downsides to socialized medicine are fascist or conservative are people that are dumb. I am not saying that fascist or conservatives are people that think that socialized medicine might have some downsides. Before you get all high and mighty, you might want to understand what has been written. I'm not giving a definition of conservative or fascist. I'm explaining that people who use those definitions are equally as stupid as those who mislabel those on the Left.

I would argue that this thread would be better titled "European right vs American Right". There are more differences between the conservative parties in much of the rest of the world and the Republicans than there are between the Democrats and rest of the world liberal parties. In Australia and New Zealand there only minor elements in parliament that are similar to the Republicans. Religious conservatism is non-existent in New Zealand politics and rapidly retreating in Australia.

Not really, as this really came about from another thread where someone said there is no Left party in the US but there is in Europe. Thus it logically followed that someone asked this question because it interested them from the other thread.

 

[greatnoob]

I am very happy because you've conclusively answered the OPs question. The difference between the European left and American left is that the American left contains smug intellectuals such as yourself.

Tell us more our fellow forum supposed Bernie voter communist! I'm not what morons like you would call "left" but keep grasping at straws.

 

[umbrella39]

Its kinda amazing how this thread turned out. I was under the impression that the OP had a secret agenda to cause harm, but what I see are people actively discussing the topic in good faith. Those same people also do not seem to be partaking in the discussion.

Its almost like it was not the OP that had the agenda...

Oh FFS sake. Attach your string to a more Noble kite next time. This feigned indignation is getting thick...

 

[realibrad]

Oh FFS sake. Attach your string to a more Noble kite next time. This feigned indignation is getting thick...

I have attached myself to nothing other than discussion. You may want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but adults can have civil discourse. I care not for the OP as I do not know him. The question he asked was simple and those out there that believed there was some conspiracy are paranoid. Asking what the difference was perfectly fine. The only ones that have done anything negative are the ones who focused on the messenger rather than the message. The OP could be a complete ass. I dont know, but what I do know is that this has mainly gone fine.

Also, care not to choke on your hypocrisy.

 

[umbrella39]

I admit I am guilty of dismissing someone based on their fake persona. 100% guilty. I am a total shoot the messenger kind of guy when the messenger is a disingenuous liar. Anything of "substance" that might mistakenly escape from his troll persona gets lost on me and apparently many others who have expressed their frustration. Should I sit on my hands and digest my displeasure? Nope, recovery has taught me to never leave anything on the table. Had the OP shown up and been honest from the get go... I and others here who have tired of this stupid game would have sung a completely different tune However this is all a scripted game. So to that end... Bullshit out, bullshit in. I do apologize to folks like you who are just here for good discourse. That can be found in the Discussion Club sub where strict rules have to be adhered to. You won't find him posting there...

 

[justoh]

Thus it logically followed that someone asked this question because it interested them from the other thread.

"It logically followed..." That doesn't sound right at all. Are you sure that's what you meant? If so, what did you mean?

 

[Starbuck1975]

Tell us more our fellow forum supposed Bernie voter communist! I'm not what morons like you would call "left" but keep grasping at straws.

I am not a communist, I am an Eisenhower conservative who appreciates the merits of well architected democratic socialism and recognized Sanders as a unique voice amongst a field of uninspired candidates.

You still haven't measurably contributed to the conversation other than to demonstrate the worst impulses of the American left.

 

[realibrad]

"It logically followed..." That doesn't sound right at all. Are you sure that's what you meant? If so, what did you mean?

Why do you think it does not? I would need to understand what you think is wrong and why before I could explain.

 

[justoh]

Why do you think it does not? I would need to understand what you think is wrong and why before I could explain.

Before you could explain what you meant...

Guess it's silly of me to provoke someone who apparently only talks in circles. Please forgive my stupidity.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I admit I am guilty of dismissing someone based on their fake persona. 100% guilty. I am a total shoot the messenger kind of guy when the messenger is a disingenuous liar. Anything of "substance" that might mistakenly escape from his troll persona gets lost on me and apparently many others who have expressed their frustration. Should I sit on my hands and digest my displeasure? Nope, recovery has taught me to never leave anything on the table. Had the OP shown up and been honest from the get go... I and others here who have tired of this stupid game would have sung a completely different tune However this is all a scripted game. So to that end... Bullshit out, bullshit in. I do apologize to folks like you who are just here for good discourse. That can be found in the Discussion Club sub where strict rules have to be adhered to. You won't find him posting there...

I've not once lied. You're another conspiracy theorist that can't believe that so many people disagree with you so you create an alternate reality to protect your bubble. Continue with your tantrum, I'm tickled to know that the mere act of me posting a harmless thread is enough to trigger you and send you (and a couple others) off the deep end.

 

[realibrad]

Before you could explain what you meant...

Guess it's silly of me to provoke someone who apparently only talks in circles. Please forgive my stupidity.

Um okay. I only meant that your question is vague that I do not know where to start. Are you questioning the validity of the use, or perhaps if it was logical? There are so many places to start that I asked that you explain so I would know where to start. I don't think that is talking in circles.

 

[justoh]

Conservatives in the US like to brag about how much more attractive they are than liberals. Are liberals in Europe also less attractive than their conservative brothers and sisters? Good question.

https://www.helsinki.fi/en/news/soc...ns-lean-right-best-looking-scholars-lean-left

 

[realibrad]

Conservatives in the US like to brag about how much more attractive they are than liberals. Are liberals in Europe also less attractive than their conservative brothers and sisters? Good question.
https://www.helsinki.fi/en/news/soc...ns-lean-right-best-looking-scholars-lean-left

Site cant be reached?

 

[BigDH01]

What's funny is that I could see Universal Basic Income as being preferred to our current welfare system, especially amongst the more libertarian conservatives.

Perhaps, but there are a lot of questions that would need to be answered.

1. It would be far more equitable--every adult citizen would qualify regardless of income. Warren Buffet and Jeff Bezos would get their checks just like anyone else.

I would be a little curious how much of a poor person's income would be consumed by inflation in inelastic markets if we did this. Particularly renters.

2. All other income-based social assistance programs would disappear--no more food stamps, temporary assistance, housing subsidies etc. Medicaid would be replaced with a universal healthcare system available to everyone, but people would still be expected to pay part of their bills since they are getting free money.

I question whether or not this would actually happen. Somehow, I imagine we end up with UBI and additional anti-poverty programs (the government doesn't like to shrink).

3. Much more personal responsibility than the current welfare system. If you spend your money poorly and don't have food to eat, tough shit. Learn your lesson for next month's paycheck. The government isn't responsible for bailing you out if you're a dumbshit.

There are a couple of glaring problems with this:
1) Even currently, welfare is only minimally about helping single childless adults. You can get SNAP or some disability benefits if you are disabled. Mostly, this money goes to help families. What does that mean for UBI? In this context, are children considered adults for distribution purposes? You obviously can't give 2k/mo to a 4 year old, so does that money go to the parents? To a lockbox?

Or do you only start collecting at 18? If that's the case then it won't be long until we start seeing "won't you think of the children" argument as to why we need UBI and additional benefits for parents who don't work but decide to have 5 children (remember, most welfare today is ostensibly about children).

This is actually a pretty hard problem and doesn't go away with UBI. If you count children as adults and send their UBI to their parents you are incentivizing child bearing (even though one huge reason to have a UBI in the first place is that humans aren't as necessary and can't find productive work) and if you don't then you still have irresponsible parents having children and then your "don't have food to eat, tough shit" argument doesn't go far. The first time CBS runs a story about starving kids the TANF money is back on.

2) How do you price UBI? It costs more to life in California than it does in South Dakota. Do we price it based on how much it costs to live California or South Dakota? Or does it vary by region?

In general, libertarians aren't opposed to safety net programs (even Friedman proposed a negative income tax) but we need a lot more explanation and critical analysis of the concept. My biggest concern is that instead of streamlining and making the process cheaper, we end up with a UBI + TANF + SNAP + HUD + etc + etc. Like I said before, the government doesn't like to shrink.

 

[umbrella39]

I've not once lied. You're another conspiracy theorist that can't believe that so many people disagree with you so you create an alternate reality to protect your bubble. Continue with your tantrum, I'm tickled to know that the mere act of me posting a harmless thread is enough to trigger you and send you (and a couple others) off the deep end.

Continue your lies liar. That's what liars like you do... How does it feel to live have no IRL that you come here to post your bullshit.... You are a pathetic coward. It's comical how much space I am renting in your head right now and to watch how easily exposing your bullshit triggers you! I'm going to keep on doing it until you tag out...