Evolution happening before our very eyes? Awesome.

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Aug 8, 2010
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no we haven't, and no it doesn't.

again, you aren't a scientist. This is why no one discusses shit with you, because you refuse to listen.

you make a simple unfounded statement with no argument.

fuck off.

Homologous structures in different species often are produced by quite different genes. Hardly a strong argument for common ancestory.

Is homology your only argument for macroevolution? If so we should just stop here and reject your macroevolutionary model.
 
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DanDaManJC

Senior member
Oct 31, 2004
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Homologous structures in different species often are produced by quite different genes. Hardly a strong argument for common ancestory.

Is homology your only argument for macroevolution? If so we should just stop here and reject your macroevolutionary model.

Not at all.

zin, some others, and myself all explained how it's all a bunch of different evidences put together that shows macroevolution. (belabors the point, but you can find 29+ at the talk origins site, or lookup jerry coyne on amazon for his latest book on the topic)

There was my earlier fossil example --- ie a perfect way to falsify evolution would be to find a modern bunny fossil with its ancestor (or any other species). In the 150 years since darwin published his theory, no such fossil has been found.

There was the homology piece.

Bio-geography is another huge piece of evidence for evolution. Google does a fine job of explaining what that means.

You're also right -- taken independently, these three variables sure don't add up to macroevolution. Creationism or any other theory work just as well to explain these phenomenon. It's when you put all the evidence together, after testing, that you end up with evolution over creation.

At this point you may try and make the claim that the naturalist scienstists choose their creed over God's --- but this process of consolidating multiple pieces of independent facts (you cant dispute the fact that we've found fossils, noticed homology etc) is paramount to the construction of all other theories in science. The same process brought us relativity, quantum mechanics and maxwell's equations.
 
Aug 8, 2010
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Okay, let's talk about reason.

Say you find a watch on the ground and you want to investigate its origin. Would you rule out a designer, a priori? That's what a lot of folks here want to do. Does that seem reasonable to you?
 
Aug 8, 2010
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Not at all.

zin, some others, and myself all explained how it's all a bunch of different evidences put together that shows macroevolution. (belabors the point, but you can find 29+ at the talk origins site, or lookup jerry coyne on amazon for his latest book on the topic)

There was my earlier fossil example --- ie a perfect way to falsify evolution would be to find a modern bunny fossil with its ancestor (or any other species). In the 150 years since darwin published his theory, no such fossil has been found.

There was the homology piece.

Bio-geography is another huge piece of evidence for evolution. Google does a fine job of explaining what that means.

You're also right -- taken independently, these three variables sure don't add up to macroevolution. Creationism or any other theory work just as well to explain these phenomenon. It's when you put all the evidence together, after testing, that you end up with evolution over creation.

At this point you may try and make the claim that the naturalist scienstists choose their creed over God's --- but this process of consolidating multiple pieces of independent facts (you cant dispute the fact that we've found fossils, noticed homology etc) is paramount to the construction of all other theories in science. The same process brought us relativity, quantum mechanics and maxwell's equations.

Okay, you appear to believe that given enough time, the cummulative effects of microevolutiory effects give rise to macroevolutionary changes. You point to the fossil record, homoolgy, and bio-geography as proof. Okay, let's look at the evidence.

A. Fossil Record
1. All the different, basic kinds of animals appear abruptly and fully functional in the strata - with no proof of ancestors.
2. Plants appear abruptly too. Scientists have been unable to find an Evolutionary history (beginning to end) for even one group of modern plants.
3. Contrary to common belief, most fossils are not of extinct types of animals. Most fossils are very similar (and often totally identical) to creatures living today. Evolutionary history should be filled with temporary, intermediate stages of Evolution, from amoeba to man. Where are they?
4. There is a continuing lack of evidence for Evolution in spite of the millions of fossils that have been discovered.

B. Homology
1. Homologous organisms exhibiting ‘unity of type’, would be expected to show homologous genes and homologous patterns of embryological development. But, wat is being discovered however, are non homologous genetic structures and different embryological development patterns.
2. Homologous structures[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] are arrived at by different routes and the cells giving rise to the different germ layers and their migration patterns are markedly dissimilar. Homologous attributes in the different classes of vertebrates (or even within the same species) are arrived at by different (non-homologous) routes from non-homologous sites in the embryo.[/FONT]

C. Bio-geography
1. The biogeography argument isn’t an argument in favor of evolution—it’s an argument against the Bible. Even if the argument is true, proving the Bible is false doesn’t prove that evolution is true.
2. The only real point of contention between creationists and evolutionists is how long it takes for living things to colonize a new area.
3. In Sursty, Iceland, scientists studying how long it takes an ecosystem to develop. In less than 50 years Surtsey has developed an old-looking ecological system.
 
Aug 8, 2010
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What do you mean by "watch"?

Of course, if you found a watch on the ground, and wanted to investigate its origin, you would be mistaken to rule out design a priori.

If you were curious enough, you might waste an entire lifetime dabbling in spurious explanations.

See any silimarties here to our discussion?

Jumping to conclusions isn't a very good way to do science, I'm afraid.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
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Of course, if you found a watch on the ground, and wanted to investigate its origin, you would be mistaken to rule out design a priori.

If you were curious enough, you might waste an entire lifetime dabbling in spurious explanations.

See any silimarties here to our discussion?

Jumping to conclusions isn't a very good way to do science, I'm afraid.

Watches don't reproduce and there's often a stamp on the back that says "Made in China."

So, no, I don't see any similarities.
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
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Of course, if you found a watch on the ground, and wanted to investigate its origin, you would be mistaken to rule out design a priori.

If you were curious enough, you might waste an entire lifetime dabbling in spurious explanations.

See any silimarties here to our discussion?

Jumping to conclusions isn't a very good way to do science, I'm afraid.

What do you mean by "similarities?"
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Creationism or any other theory work just as well to explain these phenomenon.
This isn't true. Creationism doesn't explain anything. Consider an analogy:

You put me and Frank in a room with a hermetically sealed jar on the table with a penny and shut the door. There are no windows or other means of observing the room while Frank and I are in it with our jar and penny.

After some time, you enter the room again, to find Frank and me, and the penny inside the jar, yet the seal on the jar is unbroken.

"How did that penny get in the jar without breaking the seal?" you ask.

"Greg put the penny in there," I reply. (That is not a typo)

Now, what exactly have I explained about how the penny got in the jar?

Creationism doesn't "explain" anything. Science is about discovering how things became the way we observe them. Creationism simply answers a "who" question that wasn't asked, and moreover it does so by naming an entity which doesn't appear to exist.
 
Aug 8, 2010
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This isn't true. Creationism doesn't explain anything. Consider an analogy:

You put me and Frank in a room with a hermetically sealed jar on the table with a penny and shut the door. There are no windows or other means of observing the room while Frank and I are in it with our jar and penny.

After some time, you enter the room again, to find Frank and me, and the penny inside the jar, yet the seal on the jar is unbroken.

"How did that penny get in the jar without breaking the seal?" you ask.

"Greg put the penny in there," I reply. (That is not a typo)

Now, what exactly have I explained about how the penny got in the jar?

Creationism doesn't "explain" anything. Science is about discovering how things became the way we observe them. Creationism simply answers a "who" question that wasn't asked, and moreover it does so by naming an entity which doesn't appear to exist.

Your problem is that your starting from a basic premise that everything must have a natural cause, much like the person who finds a watch and when trying to determine it's origin, a priori rules out that there was designer.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
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Your problem is that your starting from a basic premise that everything must have a natural cause, much like the person who finds a watch and when trying to determine it's origin, a priori rules out that there was designer.

Why must you persist in stupidity?
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,125
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Your problem is that your starting from a basic premise that everything must have a natural cause, much like the person who finds a watch and when trying to determine it's origin, a priori rules out that there was designer.

A watch and a tree are two different things. There is evidence to support the watch being made by a designer. There is no evidence that a tree has a designer -much less that your version of that non-existent designer is the "one true designer."

No proof.

None.
 
Aug 8, 2010
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A watch and a tree are two different things. There is evidence to support the watch being made by a designer. There is no evidence that a tree has a designer -much less that your version of that non-existent designer is the "one true designer."

No proof.

None.

So, biological organisms are infintely more complex than a watch, yet they could not have possibly been created by a designer?

Is that your view?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,658
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So, biological organisms are infintely more complex than a watch, yet they could not have possibly been created by a designer?

Is that your view?

They are more complex, Yes. There's no need for a Designer, that has been Proven.

Sorry Dude, Fail.
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
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So, biological organisms are infintely more complex than a watch, yet they could not have possibly been created by a designer?

Is that your view?

I have a hard time comprehending how monumentally stupid you are.

Simply amazing.

Show me proof that biological organisms have a designer. Any, please.

Oh, hey, by the way. Humans are creating life.
 
Aug 8, 2010
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Why would a true scientist, a priori, want to rule out a potential cause before looking at all of the evidence? That would be stupid.

It appears to me that the ideology and worldview of many scientists clouds their logic and prevents them from doing real science.
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,125
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Why would a true scientist, a priori, want to rule out a potential cause before looking at all of the evidence? That would be stupid.

It appears to me that the ideology and worldview of many scientists clouds their logic and prevents them from doing real science.

I don't like how you label true scientists as priori. You know, the nazis labelled people too. You must be a Nazi.

:awe:

No, you have it backwards. Most theologians can't get it through their thick skull that the evidence must form the theory instead of the theory being what drives scientists to dismiss evidence as false because it doesn't support the theory.

I don't believe that you're involved in any sort of scientific field.

I believe that you're just some dumb high school drop out working at a 7-Eleven.

Prove me wrong.
 
Aug 8, 2010
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What are the origins of the information found in DNA, the fundamental matter of lfe?

Information always come from an intelligent source.
 
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Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,125
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What are the origins of the information found in DNA, the fundamental matter of lfe?

Information always come from an intelligent source.

You're giving us information and you're profoundly not intelligent.

I'm still waiting for all this proof you're going to post...
 
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