Ex-AMD Engineer explains Bulldozer fiasco

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
0
And no one will be held accountable. The idiot that made the decision will probably get a bonus and promotion.
 

eternalone

Golden Member
Sep 10, 2008
1,500
2
81
So I dont expect the next iteration of BD to be much faster either since they are now using this automated process, we probably wont see BD mature till 2013. Im just guessing here but the result of the BD architecture cpu is more efficient manufacturing process at the cost of performance, correct me if Im wrong.
 

jvroig

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,394
1
81
I've heard this story before. I have nothing against x-bit passing this of as "news" since BD failure is a hot item now, but Cliff Maier mentioned this quite some time ago already.

So it's actually the other way around if I remember correctly. Cliff left before BD was anywhere near completion, but he said (in so many words) that BD will be a flop due to reliance on automated tools. 20% bigger, 20% slower.

Most people dismissed him as your average disgruntled employee, yadda yadda yadda.

Now that Bulldozer flopped epically, he now gets his much deserved vindication.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Just anecdotal observations from my POV, but this is in keeping with AMD's culture, the same culture that looked to adopting SOI as a fixed-cost solution to power-consumption, the same culture that made the decision that 32nm would be gate-first rather than gate-last (gate first is cheaper to develop, cheaper to manufacture, but downside is has lower performance on a normalized basis).

Its the same old project triangle, you can't make the impossible happen just because you need it to happen.

You can have any two of the three:


If you want overlay and account for the elements of risk-management (necessary for multi-year projects) then you go to the "project star":
 

dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,271
917
136
So if BD was largely a synthesized design, why was it delayed so much?
 
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Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
So if BD was largely a synthesized design, why was it delayed so much?

GloFo had six (6) 32nm wafers, AMD could have 6 wafers worth of Llanos or 6 wafers worth of bulldozer, or a mixture of the two.

Llano launch needed 7-8 wafers worth of chips, so they allocated to Llano at the expense of bulldozer.

(substitute 6 wfrs for 2,000 or so, the point still stands, early node ramps suck when it comes to supporting volume launches of new products)
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
So if BD was largely a synthesized design, why was it delayed so much?

And IMHO, for a high frequency design, automated vs hand design penalty is much higher than 20%...

yeah had exactly the same thought. obviously it failed double. took longer with a worse result. I see it everyday. For some things,computers are just not far enough to replace a real brain.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,488
153
106
I've heard this story before. I have nothing against x-bit passing this of as "news" since BD failure is a hot item now, but Cliff Maier mentioned this quite some time ago already.

So it's actually the other way around if I remember correctly. Cliff left before BD was anywhere near completion, but he said (in so many words) that BD will be a flop due to reliance on automated tools. 20% bigger, 20% slower.

Most people dismissed him as your average disgruntled employee, yadda yadda yadda.

Now that Bulldozer flopped epically, he now gets his much deserved vindication.

I seem to remember having an indepth discussion with CTho when this originally came out, where he was saying that current tools have shown that they are usually more efficient compared to hand designs, and are also usually more compact. He showed examples, and gave the reasoning (since there have been years upon years of designing circuitry, the tools are able to use multiple tricks found by people throughout that time to reduce size, latency, interference, and power.) Since he is the only actual chip designer I know, I took his word for it, and still don't think that this argument holds a lot of water.

If I can find the string of comments, I will link them here.

EDIT: I spent about an hour looking for the comments, and I really don't have anymore time to spend on that task (I shouldn't have spent that much time in the first place, but I got caught up in my task.) I remember the conversation, but I am starting to think that it may have been Hardball and not CTho who it was with. Regardless, most of Intel's designs have been automated for years, with some hand tweaking, and I would expect AMD to do something similar. Hell, Brazos was marketed as the first fully automated design, and it did extremely well for the size and power budget.
 
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Regs

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
16,665
21
81
"hand-crafting various performance-critical parts of its chips and rely completely on automatic tools. "

This sounds like a disgruntled former employee who was replaced by a robot.
 

Tuna-Fish

Golden Member
Mar 4, 2011
1,422
1,759
136
And no one will be held accountable. The idiot that made the decision will probably get a bonus and promotion.

The idiot that made the decision has already been sacked. The guy who approved the decision was sacked before him.

Sounds about right. Hopefully the lesson has been learned.

Well, now they know what went wrong, but what can they do about it? The talent that made competing with Intel with hand-crafted designs possible has left.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
I seem to remember having an indepth discussion with CTho when this originally came out, where he was saying that current tools have shown that they are usually more efficient compared to hand designs, and are also usually more compact.

Thanks for the post.

I don't completely buy the engineer claim. With the amount we know, we might as well even claim he's saying that to get the spotlight on himself. Admit it, everyone wants it.

Tech is extremely complicated nowadays. So many limitations, and engineers approach from ALL angles to solve the problems. Not like 1990s where you get one "macro" feature and the performance skyrocketed. It's always easy to fault it on one thing.

Maybe the engineer worked on the part he complains about.
 

eternalone

Golden Member
Sep 10, 2008
1,500
2
81
On AMD's behalf you have to look up to the fact that they are trying to use automatic tools to increase production, on the other hand this is bad timing, very bad timing. This chip needed to be a solid winner, its successor would have been better suited for this type of release IMO. So now they are going to have to lower the prices, maybe even take a loss, and lose customer confidence. The only way I think they can regain customer confidence is to really price these things low, almost give them away, although their stock holders might think differently.
 

PCboy

Senior member
Jul 9, 2001
847
0
0
I'm surprised no one mentioned this:
The management decided there should be such cross-engineering [between AMD and ATI teams within the company] ,which meant we had to stop hand-crafting our CPU designs and switch to an SoC design style.

LOL, management. As if they know any better.

AMD went straight downhill after Jerry left. When you get people like Hector Ruiz (more like Hector Ruinz), I can't say I'm not surprised how they're turning out. In fact, it won't be news to me if they get bought soon.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericsavitz/2011/10/13/amd-now-verging-on-irrelvancy-analyst-says/
 

ThatsABigOne

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 2010
4,430
23
81
AMD herp a derped on their derpdozer.

I knew that when reading the reviews and benchmarks, what had stuck me was the number of transistors that Bulldozer had. The article explained perfectly why there were so many transistors sitting idle and doing nothing.
 

Soulkeeper

Diamond Member
Nov 23, 2001
6,713
142
106
I'm surprised no one mentioned this:


LOL, management. As if they know any better.

AMD went straight downhill after Jerry left. When you get people like Hector Ruiz (more like Hector Ruinz), I can't say I'm not surprised how they're turning out. In fact, it won't be news to me if they get bought soon.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericsavitz/2011/10/13/amd-now-verging-on-irrelvancy-analyst-says/

Don't forget that Hector Ruinz now works at Global foundries ...
he wasn't exactly "fired"
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
GloFo had six (6) 32nm wafers, AMD could have 6 wafers worth of Llanos or 6 wafers worth of bulldozer, or a mixture of the two.

Llano launch needed 7-8 wafers worth of chips, so they allocated to Llano at the expense of bulldozer.

(substitute 6 wfrs for 2,000 or so, the point still stands, early node ramps suck when it comes to supporting volume launches of new products)

I think Dmens may be talking about the multi-year delay, not the last few months.
 

Soulkeeper

Diamond Member
Nov 23, 2001
6,713
142
106
Hector resigned over the insider trading scandal.

Ok, I see now.

"Ruiz was named Chairman of AMD spin-off GlobalFoundries in March 2009.[9] He resigned when reports identified Ruiz as the previously unnamed AMD executive who allegedly discussed AMD's plans for the spin-off with an investment manager before it had been publicly disclosed.[10] Ruiz has not been charged with any criminal activity." --wiki

I just assumed he was still there screwing things up for some reason ...
 
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