Exercise - Muscle Growth

[AbAbber2k]

I know this is probably the wrong place to try and discuss this, but I'm at work and bored and it popped into my head.

In my exercise physiology class we've been discussing muscle contraction and muscle fiber recruitment. Muscle growth is stimulated when a fiber is recruited for work (which stimulates the fiber nuclei to add to the protein structure of the muscle), so it makes sense that maximum muscle growth would be achieved through stimulation of 100% of a muscle's fibers (doing that maximum amount of work possible for that muscle group). This of course considers that diet and nutrition are non-issues.

There seems to be a lot of negativity surrounding lifting to failure. Many people seem to think it can slow strength and mass gains because it puts too much stress on the body. In response, the current trend seems to be lifting a moderate amount of weight over a greater number of repitions. Am I wrong in assuming that this is an inefficient form of anaerobic exercise? Assuming a proper warm-up (don't want to hurt yourself), wouldn't it make more sense to lift a high amount of weight (80-90% of max) until failure? What about negative reps? Am I missing some serious issue that kills my logic?

 

[piromaneak]

AbAbber, I myself am in the U.S. Marine Corps, and while I'm not a personal trainer or fitness expert, our Physical Training (PT) we undergo everyday pretty much stipulates push till failure. Whether it be pull-ups, crunches, or runs. Even in the gym we lift with greater weight/less reps and lift till failure (Usually 3 sets of 10). Give it a days rest then hit that muscle group again. I wouldn't advise running, crunching and pulling up till you puke and pass out from dehydration (Like I almost feel like sometimes) but you should definately feel it the next day. If not, you didn't push yourself hard enough. Just my two cents. Hope that helps.

-Dave

 

[AbAbber2k]

That's generally the kind of routine I follow. Considering working til failure, I usually follow through on that more often with bodyweight exercises (or anything I don't need a spotter for) like pull-ups and dumbell work. I've been kind of looking for physiological reasons why one system is better than another though. It's easy enough to go out and find someone who will tell you that their system is best, but it's hard to find someone with numbers to back it up. That's not to say I'm doubt you though. The USMC knows what they're doing I'm sure, otherwise they wouldn't be what they are today. On a side note, after two years of college I decided to sign up for the Corp, unfortunately it's a little harder than it use to be to get in, and, needless to say, I'm back at college. Working with the recruiters for 3-4mo while sh1t got sorted out helped get my life in focus though (and made me fall in love with pull-ups ) and now I'm studying to be a certified personal trainer.

 

[piromaneak]

Well, I'm certainly not going to be a recruiter but I will say it can't hurt to try out any service. If only to say that you did it so you can talk all the sh*t you want about what happens. If people give you crap, say "Hey, I was a Marine. What the hell did you do with YOUR life?"... Like I said, not saying go sign up or anything, and there are ALOT of things I wish the recruiter had told me before I signed the dotted line. But I can't complain too much. And the experience and training you get is invaluable if should you choose to get out and pursue other things. I myself am taking microprocessor programming and electronics theory (On Uncle Sam's money mind you heh) while I'm doing my job. Note that that does not draw from the GI Bill... Thats for your use after you get out. I'll use that to get a Bachelor's and/or Master's in electronics theory or engineering I haven't decided. But these are just my experiences. Not sure why you couldn't join, especially if you tried to sign up in the last few years. They snatched me up right after HS Graduation. That was over 3 years ago heh.

 

[piromaneak]

Well, I kinda got (Ok, really got) Off Topic with that but anyway, here's the reply you want heh...

Physiological reasons to push till failure you will develop faster than just working to 50-60% of your known max. But psychologically, it will take a stronger mind and discipline to push yourself. If you feel that you can do more, do more. Don't just say "Well, I'm feeling a burn I guess I'll stop now" Do it till you say "Not... One... More" heh...

Alot of people go into a gym and work till its just uncomfortable to them then they stop. This will yield very slow progress and results, then they wonder why they arent developing "like the guy in a muscle mag I saw", get pissed, quit and go chow down food or do something besides their goal because they figure "Screw it, I can never be like that guy/girl"... Well, like my sergeants tell me, if you think it, you're gonna do it. So don't think "No" "I Can't". Think "Screw these weights" "I'm pushin' you b*tches around, you ain't pushin' me"... It's 90% mental, 10% physical. Just remember that.

 

[Tiamat]

Everybody's bodies are different, however I just started the "lift to failure" and i think I am getting results faster than before.

Typically I do 8 @ 2 below max, 8 @ 1 below max, max until failure. If i can do 8, then I raise the weight one step and proceed until fail.

 

[ahurtt]

It depends a lot on what your fitness goals are. If you want to build mass and bulk and great strength, lift heavy weight. If you want endurance and a more "cut" look, more reps and less weight. Lifting heavy weight for less reps will give you more "explosive" muscles capable of great feats of strength but not for very prolonged times. Lighter weights will subject your muscles to less load but longer conditions of working with less oxygen and so they will become more like runners muscles. So for big bulk you might do heavy weight until failure for 8-10 reps, 3 sets. For high endurance and cut phisique do lighter weight with maybe 12-15 reps for maybe 5 sets. A happy medium would be 4 sets of moderate weight for 10-12 reps. It is generally a good idea to mix cardio exercise with lifting though because it trains your muscles to need less oxygen to function and more endurance lets you do more work and helps you keep a healthy cardiovascular system to supply blood to those growing and hard working muscles.

 

[superkdogg]

As a former personal trainer, I can confirm that most of this commentary is on the right track. There is a major flaw in most of the arguments, however. The only way to sustain continuous growth is by varying the routines, or "cycling." Cycling also can be applied to supplements and/or steriods, but in this case it means changing the way in which you stress the muscle. You're right that taxing all (or most, since all is not possible) of the muscle fibers => optimum results. The people who say lifting to failure doesn't work are either absolute nuts, complete wimps, or lying to you so they stay ahead of you .

Every successful bodybuilder ever has trained muscles to failure. Hypertrophy doesn't happen unless you've taxed the muscles beyond what they could previously handle. Think about it, the body is not designed to change easily, so why would it change unless it has a reason!

Start out with lower weights and about 60 work reps per large muscle group exercies (bench, squat, dead lift, etc.). This could be 5x12, 4x15, whatever. That won't make much of a difference. Then move to your more individual exercises (curls, DB flyes, things that isolate one muscle group) and do something like 4x10-12. Select exercises that are important for your goals-if you're lifting for sport, the shoulders and abs are often overlooked. If you're a bodybuilder plan on destroying your calves to get them to grow because they are already adept at carrying around your enormous body. Never have a workout that takes more than 45-60 minutes. There is no reason for it. If you're there that long you're either talking to much, not focusing enough, or training too long for optimal results.

Do this sort of a workout for 1-3 months. Then start a new cycle.

This one is kind of a "mezzo" cycle. Up the weights, change the shaping/isolation exercises if you want (you'll probably keep bench, squat, deadlift, etc. but you can vary with DB Bench, front/hack squat, foot postions, etc.) and go for 4 sets of 6-8. Take every set to failure. That is the point, as you have correctly identified in your OP. After about 1-3 months (personal preference based on results) continue in the same direction as before. This time, when you go up in weight, you're going all the way down to 3-5 reps per set and 3-4 sets. The muscle hypertrophy that you've gotten rolling through the first two stages is now going to be taught to generate power as well (which in turn allows you to use more weight and generate more hypertrophy and more power, etc., etc.). Cut the isolation exercises down to a minimum, because it's simply hard to use appropriate weight safely. If you want to substitute plyometrics or another form of training go ahead, but easy on the cardio because at this point you'll want to conserve calories to avoid the overtraining that your wimpy friends were talking about. After 1-3 months like this, evaluate yourself and see how you did. Look through the notebooks you diligently kept on your training and your diet . You can take a week or two off now and start over with the higher reps and lower weight. You should be able to use quite a bit more weight now and thus you'll be taxing your newly enhance muscles.

If you want more help than this, I could draw you up a schedule. You'll need to provide me with your goals, current 1 rep maxes, general fitness level and probably a negotiable donation to a paypal account of my choosing :laugh:.


Or the short answer to your OP is:

Muscles are composed of different types of fibers. Lifting heavy weights will fatigue the "fast-twitch" muscles before the "slow-twitch" are activated. The inverse is also true. That's why the way I just laid out is the way that EVERY high-level (pro or Olympics) athlete trains. The prof who taught my conditioning and training courses in college had his MS from Harvard and knew his stuff.

 

[Raeldor]

Wow, great post superkdogg. I have always just stuck with the same 3x12 reps while mixing up the exercises each session. I am going to try your plan and see how it works.

 

[WoodenPupa]

This is not a direct response to the question, however I do have a little trick that works for me. Whenever I want to get into shape, I work out for about two months lifting weights and doing some light cardio work (like bike rides and stuff). During that period, I avoid looking at my body. I shower in dim light and towel off without looking in the mirror and dress quickly after the shower. I try to wear long sleeve shirts and the like and basically just avoid looking at myself, aside from my face to shave and stuff. Then, at the end of the two months, I go ahead and take a look in a full length mirror. The first time I did this was awesome---I looked like the hulk compared to what I was before. Now, in reality I wasn't that ripped or stacked, but for two months I had carried around the mental image of myself as being pretty out of shape (for me, anyway). The sudden view of my body with the results of 8 weeks working out blew me away. When you check yourself out every time you work out, you look for microscopic changes, and your self image adjusts to that every time. Depriving yourself of an updated image can bring about an impressive shock value and an avalanche of self esteem this way!

The key is not to cheat though. Anyway, I'm not sure if other people do this, but it is a cool trick that has worked for me.

 

[Emultra]

Sounds cool. I've found that in the beginning things go pretty fast, but then they slow down even though you do more. Not that nothing happens, it's just that at first you take a non-worked body through some ordeals and it shows clearly.

Getting to see some real results is probably good for the motivation.

 

[mehmel]

As stated before, it all depends on what you are going after. If you are training for maximal strength (such as powerlifting), anywhere from 1-5 reps is key for strength. Remember, when your going to failure, your attempting to go past 100%. Check out articles by Louie Simmons at Westside Barbell This guy is over 60, still squats over 900, and trains without a doubt the strongest powerlifters in the world. He advocates not going to failure, but doing worksets at around 90% of your max for the three powerlifting movements, squat, bench, and deadlift (and variations of each exercise) (Maximum Effort). This all of course is if your training for maximal strength. So reading what I have read I would say going to failure for gaining absolute strength is a bad idea.
Now from what I have heard about gaining mass, you need to do high rep sets, 8-12 with heavy weight, and go to failure. But you should probably cycle failure sets in with non failure sets, as this would most likely tax on your body pretty hard.
Training for strength and mass are two different things. If you want to do both, I suggest following the Westside Barbell training method, doing Maximum effort work for strength, followed by Repitition to build mass. This program has yeilded some of the strongest, biggest men in the world.

The people who say lifting to failure doesn't work are either absolute nuts, complete wimps, or lying to you so they stay ahead of you .

... Or the strongest people in the world. I'd say the above comment is geared specifically toward bodybuilders, not strength athletes.
Two things you will learn from every succesful strength coach who has strong athletes is that they don't train to failure, and degrees are good for jack.
Just curious superkdogg, how much did that professor from Harvard squat???

 

[superkdogg]

Touche`, mehmel.

I should have mentioned that I define "failure" as the inability to do another rep at the given weight. By that definition, I'm sure that Louie Simmons (I'm not familiar with him, so maybe I'm wrong) also trains to "failure" because I doubt he just gets his work in at a given weight and leaves without ever attempting a rep he is not certain if he'll complete.

Failure as I define it can be reached at any given weight. e.g.: [brag] I currently bench 225 10-12 times as a warm-up. If I took the reps out to 20-23, I would have reached my definition of failure. Conversely, if I have 315 on the bar, I reach failure at about 7-8 and at 375, faiure is either after the 2nd or 3rd rep, because I cannot complete anymore without assistance. [/brag]

I'm not advocating things like 200 rep supersets or taking exercises to failure and then doing forced negatives (except maybe with calves-see above).

I checked out that website and while I can't argue with those results (if they're real), I would still not advocate that method for the "average Joe." Nobody in these forums can bench 700, and hardly any would want to. Those guys are all enormous, and my hat's off to them but they're just a different breed than us mere mortals.

Two major factors anybody should consider prior to trying those methods are: risk of injury goes up exponentially when weight training at a rapid pace. By that I mean if you are a power lifter, and an experienced gym rat, go ahead and put 1/2 of your 1RM on the bar and see how many reps you can get in 10 seconds. This probably will increase your ability to develop power. It will certainly increase risk of injury, as well. Now, contrary to the forum being devoid of 700 lb. bench pressers, many people surfing around here can tell you why the risk of injury goes up when mixing weights into a speed/power routine: momentum. It's not a linear relationship when you're talking about mass and velocity. It's a multiplication of mass x velocity that yields momentum and that's why people who are not serious and experienced in the gym should not train this way.

The one other reason that I wouldn't advocate for this method of training is alluded to in my earlier post. These gentlemen are powerlifters. They only care about lifting heavy weight and for that purpose, much of their muscles (by mass) are not used and they could care less. Any muscle fiber that is not activated in these low-rep, ultra heavy weight scheme will atrophy (at least a little) which is to their advantage as it will make them a little lighter. Their goal is to recruit as many individual fibers as possible to respond to the demands of a 1 rep situation and ignore everything else about training.

Just curious superkdogg, how much did that professor from Harvard squat???

I don't know, but I know that his cholesterol was under 300 and he didn't scare away any women. Studies I have read show that any bigger than about 230 and your mass will scare more women than it attracts. Not that we lift to attract females, but I'd venture to guess that physical attractiveness and general fitness would both place ahead of max bench, squat, etc. in a poll of why people train.

 

[superkdogg]

Also, as an addendum-Cheetahs are the only animal known to have demonstrated the ability to have muscle fibers change from responding to endurance work over to primarily a response needed for power. Translation: the ratio of muscle fibers you have assigned to each type of reaction is genetic in humans. For that reason, it is in the best interest of all but the highly specialized (powerlifters, marathon runners, anyone who competes in sports delineated by weight class, etc.) to train in multiple different schema in order to actively be training all of the muscle that you have rather than refining one specific aspect of your muscular ability.

For example: Those Xtremely powerful dudes, for example could never outrun a 220 lb. well-balanced athlete.

Another advantage of a more moderate approach: Those monsters are definitely the guys you want on your side in a bar fight; they are certainly not the guys you want to be your wingman!

Basically, there are far different means to different ends and only a handful of people are training for absolute 1 rep power at any cost.

 

[MetalStorm]

Hey superkdogg do you mind if I get in touch with you about a training programme?

 

[mehmel]

I agree with you superkdogg, but I have to tell you that in the interest of athletes, whether they be 300 pounds or 120 pounds could all benefit from Westside principles. I personally only weigh 165 pounds, and I like to keep my weight down so I focus less on hypertrophy work (repitition work) and more on maximum effort work. [brag]In the past 3 months training this way I have pushed my squat up from mid 300's to over 500, and my deadlift from 365 to 465.[/brag] 150 pounds on a squat in 3 months, nevermind 3 years is impressive I must say. Trust me I can outrun most football players and I have to admit, look damn good without a shirt on. Let me also say I have done this without the aid of steroids, I'm not Jose Canseco... You have to realize that these people didnt start off benching 700 pounds and squatting 1000 pounds. They started off with 135, and moved up slowly. Most of them started off with Westside principles when they couldn't bench 300 pounds, and because of the way the training is set up, it has effectively carried them up to 700 pounds.
Those men all look like monsters because they want to compete at that weight. They are extremely ugly men, but they have tremendous mass and strength. And trust me, those numbers are real. There are plenty of powerlifters out there who weigh 180- 250 pounds who can bench 500-600 pounds and look like they can do amatuer bodybuilding shows.
I would not advocate this program for an average joe just starting out with lifting weights. But an average joe who has been lifting weights for a few years can without a doubt benefit from this type of program. Again, it all depends on what the person is looking for. If your just looking to get big and not be able to bench your body weight, then train to failure (high rep failure), but if your looking to get strong and gain size, train for maximum weights with the three main movements (squat, bench and deadlift) and train for hypertrophy with assistance work (exercises done after max effort work). I think its much better to look like you can and actually be able to bench 500 pounds than just look like you can bench 500 pounds.
Now as to your comment on the risk of injury with speed training, I agree and disagree. If someone has never squatted in their life, then yes, if they try to move even 150 pounds fast they are going to hurt themselves. But if someone has been lifting for a few years, and has good form, then no, they wont hurt themselves at all. Speed training is part of I would say any athletes workout. Speed is important whether your talking about baseball, football, olympic weightlifting, powerlifting, cricket, etc. Unfortunately, if you talk to trainers who work with professional baseball, basketball players, many of these people can't curl with good form, nevermind perform a squat with decent form.
Now as to your comment about not using most of their muscle when performing a lift, I have to ask, have you ever squatted heavy and struggled through an entire rep? In the squat you use your entire legs, hips, back, abs, crotch, shoulders, traps, arms, etc. After squatting heavy my entire body is sore.
I know this sounds very much like a commercial for westside, but results dont lie. These principles breed the strongest people on the earth, the fastest sprinter in the world, and the most powerful football players in the NFL. It also breeds strong, well built men (and women) who aren't looking to set world records or compete in the olympics. Just guys looking to get bigger and stronger. You can and will get stronger and bigger training this way, there is no way around it.
I have to say I enjoy talking about this kind of stuff on AnandTech, I never thought I would. I come here to read about computers/technology and this post makes this forum all the better. I have to ask you this: Try Westside for 3 months, if you are still looking to get bigger and stronger. I can guarantee you will love the results, even if you dont train for powerlifting or any other competitive sport. Good day superkdogg.

 

[Raeldor]

Can I ask a dumb question? When you talk about training to failure, are you talking about on all sets? For example if I do 3 set of 12 for a bench press, should I be going to failure on all three sets, or just trying to achieve failure on the last set?

 

[bradley]

The keys to building muscle are: proper posture, form and technique (lift just slightly more than you can effectively handle,) at times mix it up, less is more, quality over quantity, and most importantly REST.

But never underestimate the need for higher repetitions, and lower weights to help develop that form and technique, or just generally develop the tendons and ligaments (things some weightlifters take for granted) in order to help build the foundation, and power those intense low repetition, heavy weighted workouts. I've never suffered a single exercise injury based on my willingness to go light sometimes.

And shocking your body with an unorthodox, over-the-top exercise, or taking your muscles to failure is another effective technique... when used in moderation. For instance, I fought through my lower body weakness by doing nothing but squats for three straight weeks... every two days, numbering in the hundreds (weighted and unweighted) -- and it worked. In fact, I went up a pants size in that short span of time. Although, it's up to every individual to discover their weaknesses, and what best works for them.

 

[Epimetreus]

Fascinating thread. I don't have access to a gym, but I hope to find a way to put some of this info to use with my own improvised routines.

Do any of you have advice for someone who is, at the moment, pretty out of shape and hasn't access to a gym or weights? I'm trying to come up with a regimen that is going to actually help me, won't cost money(I am _BROKE_), and won't make me so sore the next morning that I can't do anything. Any advice on how to get back into shape and gain some strength is appreciated.

 

[MetalStorm]

If I don't ache the next morning I feel that I haven't trained hard enough, so I always push my self to my limit with whatever training I'm doing.

 

[Sunner]

Very informative thread, I'm mostly just posting to keep track of it easily

On a sidenote, I find it extremely hard to push myself hard enough to cause an ache the day after, after a few weeks of 5-6 time/week training.
After a resting period(or as it stands now, after two weeks of being sick) the ache will be a complete b!tch the first week and a half or so, but after that it will gradually settle down even though I always push myself as hard as I can.

Seems like my friends who work out get the same thing, are we just doing something wrong, or is this just the way it is?

 

[superkdogg]

Raeldor- I personally take every set to failure in the second and third stages of each supercycle that I do. Meaning that in the high rep stage, I will use a light enough weight that I can get my 12-15 reps in the first 2-3 sets without having a rep that I can't do. The main goal of this stage is to tax the fibers that are only recruited when the strong fast twitch fibers are already exhausted. By doing this, you get a great "pump" and use muscle fibers that are hard if not impossible to tax in lower rep exercise. This is a matter of personal preference and as a point of reference I always feel sick after and sometimes during my workout and occasionally vomit. I'm not the most hard-core guy in the gym, but I take it seriously. I have adopted the motto that there is no such thing as overtraining, only undersleeping and undereating. That combines with my other motto-Anybody who likes training is either a masochist or a wimp.

It is possible to get nearly as good of results (some would even say better-see mehmel's posts) by training differently, but the main principle to remember is that the body needs a reason to grow. Hypertrohpy, regardless of how it is caused, is always the body's reaction to adapt to demands placed on it.

Bradley is also on to something. It was always one of the first things I would tell new clients: The point is to stress muscles, not move weight. If the point were to move weight, we could put a bunch of plates on a barbell and roll it around! Slow(ish) and steady reps with the weight always under control and tension on the muscles throughout is the best way to develop muscular hypertrophy and size. Mehmel and others would likely dispute this assertion because they advocate training for maximum power as a means for muscle growth. That is another school of thought, one to which I don't subscribe, but if that's your cup of tea it also does appear to generate results. To me it sounds like a derivative of what former pro bodybuilder Mike Metzger called High-Intesity-Training. At any rate, I digress...

Metal Storm and others who've noticed that your post-exercise stiffness and pain is less after the first few weeks: This is natural. It's your evidence that your body has made adaptations to the workout. It's also why you need to keep a journal and document what weight, sets, reps, etc. you did each workout. You can only go by feel to a certain point and then you need to meticulously track your progress. If you are stalled for more than a week or two at a given point, it's time to alter something.

Epi-The best advice for getting a basic level of fitness back is exactly what you know it is and what people don't want to hear: Diet is the best way to cut fat and aerobic exercise is the best way to get to a level of general fitness. Weight training, especially in circuits or low rest settings can also be great for shedding fat, but for somebody without a gym membership, you basically need to just walk or bike as much as you can and eat a relatively clean, low CALORIE diet. I yelled calorie because all kinds of gimmicks distract people from the point of monitoring their food. Physics dictates that you need to use more energy than you take in in order to burn fat. It doesn't matter if you eat 3 sticks of butter or 10 heads of lettuce if the calories are the same. However, for those who are training with weights, especially intensely, you need to eat large amounts of protein. Most people say 1gram/protein for every Kg of body weight each day. For me, that's about 110 grams. That means I'm off to GNC to get whey protein to mix for shakes. Those who can drink milk in large quantities or want to eat a ton of fish, chicken, lean beef and pork also have that as an option. For me it's generally easier to mix up a couple of shakes a day and not really worry about the rest of my diet other than not pigging out.

This is a great thread! I'm happy to be able to share and learn from others in this forum. I wonder if in a parallel universe there is an overclocking thread on bodybuilding.com?

 

[Raeldor]

More great advice. Thanks, superkdogg. One last question. How long do you normally rest between sets, and is it the same amount of time for each of the stages?

 

[mehmel]

Honestly in weightlifting, everything is trial and error. Every person reacts differently to every workout routine. Try doing 3 sets of 12-15 reps, with or without failure. Try doing 5 sets of 5, try doing 6 sets of 2. Eventually you will find what works for you and what doesn't.
There is no easy way to gain and maintain good results. If it were easy, we'd all look like Ronnie Coleman.
Two last things, (1) If you want to get big, then you have to eat big. But always try to eat healthy... Cake is not a food group (although I wish it was).
(2) Be consistent. Going to the gym for a month and then taking 3 months off will do absolutely nothing for you.

 

[superkdogg]

Mehmel, we agree on this post. Eat big to get big is soooo true, just eat clean at the same time.

I'd like to add that people will find out after they've been training for a long time that what worked at first needs to be changed because it will stop working at some point. All the many ways of varying demands would be it's own book, much less thread here, but yes trial and error is part of it. My whole point throughout this thread is that even the greatest training routines will need to be varied after a given amount of time to ensure continued effectiveness.

Good luck to anybody who read this far