Expanding the Right to Self-Defense in Florida

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Text

When Florida passed a law in 1987 making it easier for citizens to get licenses to carry concealed firearms, opponents predicted that blood would run in the streets. "When you have 10 times as many people carrying guns as you do now, and they get into an argument and tempers flash, you're going to have people taking out guns and killing people," one gun control activist said.

Since the law was passed, it turns out, Florida's murder rate has been cut in half. Instead of becoming more dangerous, the state has become considerably safer.

With rare exceptions, the people carrying guns have done so responsibly. In the last 18 years, the state has granted more than 1 million conceal-carry permits. Only 155 people have had their licenses revoked for crimes involving firearms -- one for every 7,000 licenses issued.

The warnings of gun control advocates about that law were way off the mark. So when you hear them warn that another law concerning firearms will lead to unnecessary bloodshed in Florida, skepticism is in order.

Last spring, the Florida legislature passed a measure giving citizens more legal protection when they act in self-defense. That alarmed the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, which describes the policy as "shoot first, ask questions never." Recently, the group handed out leaflets at the Miami airport to advise arriving passengers to exercise extreme caution: "Do not argue unnecessarily with local people. If someone appears to be angry with you . . . do not shout or make threatening gestures."

The new law, which took effect Oct. 1, gives greater protection to citizens who feel compelled to use deadly force when they are attacked in a public place. Before, someone facing "imminent death or great bodily harm" had an obligation to retreat if possible. Under the new rule, as David Kopel of the Colorado-based Independence Institute puts it, "If a gang tries to mug you while you are walking down a dark street, and you draw a gun and shoot one of the gangsters, a prosecutor cannot argue that you should have tried to run away."

Opponents have characterized the change to mean any Floridian with a firearm can blast away with impunity. "I can picture a stressed-out Tampa soccer mom drawing a bead on an approaching panhandler and shrieking, 'Go ahead, make my day!'" fantasized Time magazine columnist Michelle Cottle.

But the law doesn't say you can shoot anyone who approaches you on the street, or anyone who annoys you. It says you may resort to deadly force only if 1) you are attacked or threatened with violence and 2) you have good reason to fear being killed or badly hurt. If a panhandler asks you for spare change, or even curses you, that wouldn't qualify. If a beefy, hostile biker screams that he's going to stomp you, or rape you, that probably would.

While the "stand your ground" rule may be new in the Sunshine State, it's old hat elsewhere. "The majority of American states have always held that a person who is attacked anywhere in a manner that threatens death or great bodily harm is entitled to use deadly force to resist, rather than retreating from the attacker," says criminologist Don Kates, author of several books on gun issues. But you don't see Brady Campaign staffers handing out fliers in the other states.

Why shouldn't people who are attacked have to look for an escape route before fighting back? One reason is that a victim may expose herself to additional risk by trying to flee from a criminal who is larger and faster than she is.

Another problem with the old rule is that if she makes the wrong decision and defends herself when she might arguably have gotten away, she can end up in prison. She can also be sued. Judging whether it's safe to flee is a split-second, life-and-death decision, and the penalty for being wrong -- at least in the eyes of the police -- can be heavy.

Supporters of the law think victims shouldn't be punished for acting in self-defense against a serious threat. The change reflects the view that it would not be a bad thing for criminals to face greater risks when they resort to violence. And it embraces the proposition -- anathema to gun control advocates -- that self-defense is the fundamental right of every person.

It may be that the new law errs on the side of giving too much protection to victims of violent crime. But that beats erring on the side of giving them too little.




Florida is a great state and this legislation needs to be expanded nationwide. :thumbsup: Americans have stood by too long while radical interest groups have usurped one of our constitutional rights.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Tell me how the rates have dropped in the rest of the country at the same time before you will have any standing in my book.
And nice site, totally unbiased.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
K, so the law didn't increase violent crimes like some expected, but where does it say it was the cause for the decrease?
 

sonz70

Banned
Apr 19, 2005
3,693
1
0
Now they are changing the laws again, to make it easier for people to kill with the guns. So you will have to wait another 10-20 years to see what effect it has, aswell as when the reports come out, add in the murders made in "self defence"

Fla. Gun Law to Expand Leeway for Self-Defense
NRA to Promote Idea in Other States

By Manuel Roig-Franzia
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, April 26, 2005; Page A01

MIAMI -- It is either a Wild West revival, a return to the days of "shoot first and ask questions later," or a triumph for the "Castle Doctrine" -- the notion that enemies invade personal space at their peril.

Such dueling rhetoric marked the debate over a measure that Florida Gov. Jeb Bush (R) could sign as early as Tuesday. The legislation passed so emphatically that National Rifle Association backers plan to take it to statehouses across the nation, including Virginia's, over the next year. The law will let Floridians "meet force with force," erasing the "duty to retreat" when they fear for their lives outside of their homes, in their cars or businesses, or on the street.


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NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre said in an interview that the Florida measure is the "first step of a multi-state strategy" that he hopes can capitalize on a political climate dominated by conservative opponents of gun control at the state and national levels.

"There's a big tailwind we have, moving from state legislature to state legislature," LaPierre said. "The South, the Midwest, everything they call 'flyover land' -- if John Kerry held a shotgun in that state, we can pass this law in that state."

The Florida measure says any person "has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm."

Florida law already lets residents defend themselves against attackers if they can prove they could not have escaped. The new law would allow them to use deadly force even if they could have fled and says that prosecutors must automatically presume that would-be victims feared for their lives if attacked.

The overwhelming vote margins and bipartisan support for the Florida gun bill -- it passed unanimously in the state Senate and was approved 94 to 20 in the state House, with nearly a dozen Democratic co-sponsors -- have alarmed some national gun-control advocates, who say a measure that made headlines in Florida slipped beneath their radar.

"I am in absolute shock," Sarah Brady, chair of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said in an interview. "If I had known about it, I would have been down there."

The lessons of history do not bode well for gun-control groups and their leaders, such as Brady, who became a crusader after President Ronald Reagan and her husband, then-White House press secretary James S. Brady, were seriously wounded in a 1981 assassination attempt.

Florida has a track record as a gun-law trendsetter. In the mid-1980s, the NRA chose Florida to launch a push for "conceal carry" or "right-to-carry" laws, which allow states to issue permits for residents to carry firearms. Democrat Bob Graham, who was then governor, vetoed the measure, but it was resurrected after he left office and was signed in 1987 by Gov. Bob Martinez, a Republican.

At the time, fewer than a dozen states had right-to-carry laws. Now there are 38.

LaPierre thinks the new Florida measure -- nicknamed the "Castle Doctrine" by its conceiver, Florida lobbyist Marion P. Hammer, a former NRA president -- can create the same momentum

link
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
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Violent crime is down across the country during that same period. It's largely tied to the proportionally lower number of people in the age bracket that commits the most violent crime (teens to late '20s).

I am a liberal gun owner, and I'm essentially agnostic about these kinds of "shall issue" concealed-carry laws. Most neutral studies show they have no measurable effect on the total amount of violent crime, and there are certainly a number of permitholders who get killed by criminals when they try to use their pistols to foil a crime in progress (actually, a member of the Glock Talk bulletin board, which I used to frequent, was killed when he interrupted a liquor-store robbery with his Glock). In general, the bad guys are just more willing to shoot than the good guys.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
So one law made it more likely that someone you try to attack or mug might have a weapon... and it didn't lead to an increase in gun crimes. This one makes it easier to use your gun with impunity... I guess it won't lead to an increase in 'gun crimes' because they won't be considered 'crimes'.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: DonVito
Violent crime is down across the country during that same period. It's largely tied to the proportionally lower number of people in the age bracket that commits the most violent crime (teens to late '20s).

I am a liberal gun owner, and I'm essentially agnostic about these kinds of "shall issue" concealed-carry laws. Most neutral studies show they have no measurable effect on the total amount of violent crime, and there are certainly a number of permitholders who get killed by criminals when they try to use their pistols to foil a crime in progress (actually, a member of the Glock Talk bulletin board, which I used to frequent, was killed when he interrupted a liquor-store robbery with his Glock). In general, the bad guys are just more willing to shoot than the good guys.

That guy should have opened fire as soon as he pulled out his gun. IMO, if you aren't willing to use it, don't pull it.
 

stratman

Senior member
Oct 19, 2004
335
0
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: DonVito
Violent crime is down across the country during that same period. It's largely tied to the proportionally lower number of people in the age bracket that commits the most violent crime (teens to late '20s).

I am a liberal gun owner, and I'm essentially agnostic about these kinds of "shall issue" concealed-carry laws. Most neutral studies show they have no measurable effect on the total amount of violent crime, and there are certainly a number of permitholders who get killed by criminals when they try to use their pistols to foil a crime in progress (actually, a member of the Glock Talk bulletin board, which I used to frequent, was killed when he interrupted a liquor-store robbery with his Glock). In general, the bad guys are just more willing to shoot than the good guys.

That guy should have opened fire as soon as he pulled out his gun. IMO, if you aren't willing to use it, don't pull it.

DonVito doesn't even say whether he opened fire or not, so your response is kindof confusing.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: Strk
K, so the law didn't increase violent crimes like some expected, but where does it say it was the cause for the decrease?

Do you need someone to tell you it was the reason for the decrease before you can put two and two together? It's common sense it's the reason for the decrease, or at the very least, some of the decrease.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
From ntdz-

"Do you need someone to tell you it was the reason for the decrease before you can put two and two together? It's common sense it's the reason for the decrease, or at the very least, some of the decrease."

Pure projection and wishful thinking, grasping at straws in support of something you want to believe. The same decrease has occurred in other states where no changes took place, probably in places where gun control actually increased...

But that wouldn't fit what you want to believe, so it's irrelevant, right?
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
New York is the 5th safest state and NYC is one the safest big cities in the country, yet handguns are prohibited in the city. How would you reconcile this?

NYC is also one of the most diverse cities in the world, to cut off any nutjobs who like to shift the blame to "cultural" conflicts.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
Originally posted by: DonVito
Violent crime is down across the country during that same period. It's largely tied to the proportionally lower number of people in the age bracket that commits the most violent crime (teens to late '20s).

I am a liberal gun owner, and I'm essentially agnostic about these kinds of "shall issue" concealed-carry laws. Most neutral studies show they have no measurable effect on the total amount of violent crime, and there are certainly a number of permitholders who get killed by criminals when they try to use their pistols to foil a crime in progress (actually, a member of the Glock Talk bulletin board, which I used to frequent, was killed when he interrupted a liquor-store robbery with his Glock). In general, the bad guys are just more willing to shoot than the good guys.

QFT
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: stratman
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: DonVito
Violent crime is down across the country during that same period. It's largely tied to the proportionally lower number of people in the age bracket that commits the most violent crime (teens to late '20s).

I am a liberal gun owner, and I'm essentially agnostic about these kinds of "shall issue" concealed-carry laws. Most neutral studies show they have no measurable effect on the total amount of violent crime, and there are certainly a number of permitholders who get killed by criminals when they try to use their pistols to foil a crime in progress (actually, a member of the Glock Talk bulletin board, which I used to frequent, was killed when he interrupted a liquor-store robbery with his Glock). In general, the bad guys are just more willing to shoot than the good guys.

That guy should have opened fire as soon as he pulled out his gun. IMO, if you aren't willing to use it, don't pull it.

DonVito doesn't even say whether he opened fire or not, so your response is kindof confusing.

Eh?

In general, the bad guys are just more willing to shoot than the good guys.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: Strk
K, so the law didn't increase violent crimes like some expected, but where does it say it was the cause for the decrease?

Do you need someone to tell you it was the reason for the decrease before you can put two and two together? It's common sense it's the reason for the decrease, or at the very least, some of the decrease.

Do you need someone to explain causal links to you? All the article talks about is that the law didn't increase crime - which is what the activists said it would do. But what about national crime rates? Which have been discussed by others. What about crime in general around the country? How about an increase or decrease in the number of police? How about new ordinances in different counties? How about a major crack-down on crime?

The article provides no evidence that it caused any of the decrease. It only says that it didn't cause an increase.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
The warnings of gun control advocates about that law were way off the mark. So when you hear them warn that another law concerning firearms will lead to unnecessary bloodshed in Florida, skepticism is in order.

The gun control crowd did the same in MN when they passed their conceal and carry laws. They predicted widespread bloodshed and chaos all over the state. Nothing like that happened.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
Originally posted by: Genx87
The warnings of gun control advocates about that law were way off the mark. So when you hear them warn that another law concerning firearms will lead to unnecessary bloodshed in Florida, skepticism is in order.

The gun control crowd did the same in MN when they passed their conceal and carry laws. They predicted widespread bloodshed and chaos all over the state. Nothing like that happened.

Aye, this just further proves how wrong some activists can be.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
66
91
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: DonVito
Violent crime is down across the country during that same period. It's largely tied to the proportionally lower number of people in the age bracket that commits the most violent crime (teens to late '20s).

I am a liberal gun owner, and I'm essentially agnostic about these kinds of "shall issue" concealed-carry laws. Most neutral studies show they have no measurable effect on the total amount of violent crime, and there are certainly a number of permitholders who get killed by criminals when they try to use their pistols to foil a crime in progress (actually, a member of the Glock Talk bulletin board, which I used to frequent, was killed when he interrupted a liquor-store robbery with his Glock). In general, the bad guys are just more willing to shoot than the good guys.

That guy should have opened fire as soon as he pulled out his gun. IMO, if you aren't willing to use it, don't pull it.


I don't know if he fired or not. I think it's likely he didn't, but I don't really know.

As a general matter I don't think your maxim is a wise one. A lot of times presenting a gun will stop a situation in its tracks, and in most states deadly force is not authorized unless the perp appears likely to cause someone imminent bodily harm or death. I think in this particular case, though, where the robber had a gun and was presumably pointing it, the GT member would have been OK to shoot.

This is part of the reason I've never been interested in concealed carry, actually. I've been robbed at knifepoint, but I'd rather give up my wallet than shoot someone. I think in most situations, introducing another gun into a situation just amps up the dangerousness for everyone. The only time I've ever carried a pistol in my personal life was backpacking, where it seemed likelier that the only reason anyone would bother us was to create REAL mischief (i.e., rape or murder).
 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
7,064
0
0
and yet on TV they have commercials about florida's 10-20-life law, use a gun 10, shoot the gun 20, kill someone, life! Hey Zendari, move here, try your luck.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From ntdz-

"Do you need someone to tell you it was the reason for the decrease before you can put two and two together? It's common sense it's the reason for the decrease, or at the very least, some of the decrease."

Pure projection and wishful thinking, grasping at straws in support of something you want to believe. The same decrease has occurred in other states where no changes took place, probably in places where gun control actually increased...

But that wouldn't fit what you want to believe, so it's irrelevant, right?

Research the history of gun violance across the decades. The more anti-gun legislation there is passed, the worse the gun crimes become, not less. That is pretty hard to dispute, but I'm sure you will bust a gut trying.

 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Quote from the OP:

"Recently, the group handed out leaflets at the Miami airport to advise arriving passengers to exercise extreme caution: "Do not argue unnecessarily with local people. If someone appears to be angry with you . . . do not shout or make threatening gestures."

That alone is worth issueing everyone a weapon and telling them to carry it.
 

imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,607
0
0
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From ntdz-

"Do you need someone to tell you it was the reason for the decrease before you can put two and two together? It's common sense it's the reason for the decrease, or at the very least, some of the decrease."

Pure projection and wishful thinking, grasping at straws in support of something you want to believe. The same decrease has occurred in other states where no changes took place, probably in places where gun control actually increased...

But that wouldn't fit what you want to believe, so it's irrelevant, right?

Research the history of gun violance across the decades. The more anti-gun legislation there is passed, the worse the gun crimes become, not less. That is pretty hard to dispute, but I'm sure you will bust a gut trying.


It would be interesting to see your sources for that. Do you have any links?
 
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