Experts Debate Labeling Fat Children Obese

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: Amused
Most of them will fail long term. Just look back at them in 5-10 years. Most will be fatter than they were when they started the show.

And if you think genetic predisposition to obesity is nonsense, then you obviously know more than the entire scientific community. Congrats.

The point is, it is extremely difficult to fight one's own genetics. In this case, the bodies overwhelming desire to continue storing fat. This makes life miserable for those who have succeeded in losing the weight, as the urges from their body to gain it back become simply overwhelming. This has nothing to do with addiction or drugs. This is more akin to or urges related to breathing and sex.

The key to stemming the tide of obesity sweeping westernized nations is either a complete environmental/lifestyle change (unlikely) or a way to stop the genetically ingrained urges to gain fat stores for a famine that will never occur.

Simply blaming people for their own genes and asking them to be miserable around others who don't have to deny themselves anything is absurd, and doomed to fail. Especially when it comes to children.

Blanket general statement used as an excuse FTL. Lifestyle changes mean they will keep it off. :roll: Look at Jerod from Subway. He is still skinny.

I am not saying that some people aren't genetically predispositioned to be a little heavier than other, but that doesn't give them the excuse to become obese and chalk it up to genetics, much the same way an alcoholic can't chalk up his alcoholism to genetics. :roll: If you do, you are lazy. You don't seem to want to understand this point, so I will leave it at that.

Quit blaming your own genetics for your laziness then. If you are comfortable with your weight and who you are as a person, you wouldn't be giving excuses. But you seem to be uncomfortable with the fact that obese people do less physical activity and eat more and get fat. If you are comfortable with yourself, then I have no problem with it, but don't give me lame excuses.

If an alcoholic chooses to be an alcoholic and doesn't make an excuse. Basically admits he doesn't want to change and better himself, that is his perogative. He can slowly kill himself. He just better not expect others to clean up his mess because it being society, work, his family, or genetics fault. I hear the same excuses from obese people.

"It is because I work in front of a computer all day and eat snack from work." So do I (I work out after work, and I bring fruits and vegetables and only eat them, I will myself to not eat other stuff)."

"I go home and I eat all the snacks that my kids don't eat." STOP BUYING Soft Drinks and Snacks all the time then. Sure your kids will complain, but once there bodies adjust, they will enjoy fruits and vegetables. Drink unsweetened tea or lemon/lime water if you need flavor. BTW Water is excellent for quenching thirst.

"It is all the fast food restaurants out there." Stop eating fast food for a month or two, and I guarantee you will stop craving it all the time. Start eating at home with recipes that you know are healthy. It take 5 minutes to find something healthy online print it up and take it home.

"It is genetics." It is lifestyle for the most part. Get it through your head.

"I have no excuse, but I like where I am as a person." Good for you, let's hang out.
"I have no excuse, but I want to become more healthy." Good for you, let's hang out. I can work out with you at the gym, or you can go cycling with us on my spare bike.

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: Amused

"When you're young, you don't understand what obese means," Leu said. "I still don't understand it."

It means you're fat.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

OK, why is it that all the "experts" want everyone to be winners?? You can't have winners if you don't have fat ass loosers.

 

[ShotgunSteven]

They're too gutless to tell them they're obese...

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: DaShen


"It is genetics." It is lifestyle for the most part. Get it through your head.

It's both. Get that through YOUR head. What I have said is supported by ALL the science, what you have said is supported by your own biased beliefs.

Fact: Obesity rquires BOTH genetics and environment. Lack one and no obesity will occur.

And spare me the personalized bullsh!t.

If I defend gays I must be gay, right?

If I defend the property rights of smokers I must be a puffer, right?

If I oppose the war on drugs I must be an addict, right?

I'm not fat, never have been. At worst, I've been a little chubby (when I hit my 30s and gained a little weight)

As of now I'm a 6' 210 lb body builder with less than 15% body fat.

 

[IGBT]

..most parents today don't have the parental supervisory backbone to "step up to the plate" and supervise their kids..their too busy trying to be their kids buddy and making fools of them selves. Go to any shopping mall and look at all the mothers dressing like their daughters. Laughs in excess. :laugh:

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Amused
Look, folks... the web is FULL of valid, reputable websites that shows a definate connection between weight, weight gain, obesity and genetics. The entire scientific community is in agreement here.

And yet the denial among the laymen continues...

I don't know what reputable websites these are and what kind of connections they show. But I'd be willing to bet that any extreme weight gain caused by actual genetic issues that was not in any way influenced by a healthy diet or lifestyle would be an extremely small portion of the overweight people in existence today. I'm thinking somewhere around <1%.

Edit: I'm sure it would be neat if scientists can find a way to modify everyones genetics so that we don't over-eat. Or modify food so that our body does not convert it to fat when we don't use it. But neither things change the fact that the vast majority of obese people simply live EXTREMELY INACTIVE LIFESTYLES. I can say this because I used to live one. I can say this because my sister currently lives one.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: DaShen


"It is genetics." It is lifestyle for the most part. Get it through your head.

It's both. Get that through YOUR head. What I have said is supported by ALL the science, what you have said is supported by your own biased beliefs.

Fact: Obesity rquires BOTH genetics and environment. Lack one and no obesity will occur.

And spare me the personalized bullsh!t.

If I defend gays I must be gay, right?

If I defend the property rights of smokers I must be a puffer, right?

If I oppose the war on drugs I must be an addict, right?

I'm not fat, never have been. At worst, I've been a little chubby (when I hit my 30s and gained a little weight)

As of now I'm a 6' 210 lb body builder with less than 15% body fat.

Sure you are buddy... :roll: Since I am almost the exact same height and BMI... (195-200 lbs.), I have as of yet to meet any person who weight lifts or body builds that actually will say that obesity is due to genetics, so you would be the first. I go to the Gym at least 3-4 times a week so I know a lot of guys who weight lift although personally I don't lifts weights anymore (just core, cycling, running, and using my own weight to lift).

Yes, you do have a slight predisposition for it. But did you read my post? I already said that there is a predisposition, but some people have a predisposition for obesity and never become obese. Mainly because of their upbrining and lifestyle being healthy.

As I pointed out before, blaming genetics is the same as an alcoholic making excuses because he/she has the predisposition to being an alcoholic. :roll: There are plenty of people who have that genetic disposition to be an alcoholic, but never to almost never drink. Give me a break. Unless you realize that it is mainly a lifestyle issue, you are never going to get past that hangup.

 

[eLiu]

So they're arguing over tubby pussies? What the hell.

Everybody gets teased/"abused" over something or the other (unless you're the one waltzing around beating the sh1t out of the other kids). People need to suck it the hell up and stop being a bunch of cry-babies.

 

[Mucho]

My son who is 15 will be 16 in November is 5'9" and 254lbs, even if I mention anything about his weight he become so pissed off so I just dont bring it up anymore. BTW his mom is also fat so she dont really mind.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Amused
Look, folks... the web is FULL of valid, reputable websites that shows a definate connection between weight, weight gain, obesity and genetics. The entire scientific community is in agreement here.

And yet the denial among the laymen continues...

I don't know what reputable websites these are and what kind of connections they show. But I'd be willing to bet that any extreme weight gain caused by actual genetic issues that was not in any way influenced by a healthy diet or lifestyle would be an extremely small portion of the overweight people in existence today. I'm thinking somewhere around <1%.

Edit: I'm sure it would be neat if scientists can find a way to modify everyones genetics so that we don't over-eat. Or modify food so that our body does not convert it to fat when we don't use it. But neither things change the fact that the vast majority of obese people simply live EXTREMELY INACTIVE LIFESTYLES. I can say this because I used to live one. I can say this because my sister currently lives one.

Exactly. Unless you have a thalamus disorder which causes extreme weight gain because of non regulation of metabolism, you can't blame genetics. One of my friends had cancer in that region, he just eats very healthy now, and he is still an average weight. Same with my aunt on my mom's side (and she is still skinny). Lifestyle is about 90% of the issue if not more.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: Mucho
My son who is 15 will be 16 in November is 5'9" and 254lbs, even if I mention anything about his weight he become so pissed off so I just dont bring it up anymore. BTW his mom is also fat so she dont really mind.

I am guessing you and his mom are not together by the way you described her.
Does he live with his mom? Her lifestyle is reflected on the kid.

**EDIT**
It rarely surprises me when I see a guy or girl who comes from a healthy family (skinny) balloon out because he/she incorporates her SO's lifestyle after they get together.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: DaShen


"It is genetics." It is lifestyle for the most part. Get it through your head.

It's both. Get that through YOUR head. What I have said is supported by ALL the science, what you have said is supported by your own biased beliefs.

Fact: Obesity rquires BOTH genetics and environment. Lack one and no obesity will occur.

And spare me the personalized bullsh!t.

If I defend gays I must be gay, right?

If I defend the property rights of smokers I must be a puffer, right?

If I oppose the war on drugs I must be an addict, right?

I'm not fat, never have been. At worst, I've been a little chubby (when I hit my 30s and gained a little weight)

As of now I'm a 6' 210 lb body builder with less than 15% body fat.

Sure you are buddy... :roll: Since I am almost the exact same height and BMI... (195-200 lbs.), I have as of yet to meet any person who weight lifts or body builds that actually will say that obesity is due to genetics, so you would be the first. I go to the Gym at least 3-4 times a week so I know a lot of guys who weight lift although personally I don't lifts weights anymore (just core, cycling, running, and using my own weight to lift).

Yes, you do have a slight predisposition for it. But did you read my post? I already said that there is a predisposition, but some people have a predisposition for obesity and never become obese. Mainly because of their upbrining and lifestyle being healthy.

As I pointed out before, blaming genetics is the same as an alcoholic making excuses because he/she has the predisposition to being an alcoholic. :roll: There are plenty of people who have that genetic disposition to be an alcoholic, but never to almost never drink. Give me a break. Unless you realize that it is mainly a lifestyle issue, you are never going to get past that hangup.

I said it was a COMBINATION of genetics and environment.

But, of course, you need to paint a black and white world for yourself.

And ANY bodybuilder with any experience at all will tell you that weight, weight gain, fat %, fat distribution and the like are largely controlled by genetics. Sure, behavior can overcome genetics, but for some it takes no work at all, while for others it has to consume their entire lives just to lose a few lbs.

As for your disbelief over my body building, here:

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/back2.jpg

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/IMG_0672.JPG

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/IMG_0438.JPG

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: Amused
I said it was a COMBINATION of genetics and environment.

But, of course, you need to paint a black and white world for yourself.

And ANY bodybuilder with any experience at all will tell you that weight, weight gain, fat %, fat distribution and the like are largely controlled by genetics. Sure, behavior can overcome genetics, but for some it takes no work at all, while for others it has to consume their entire lives just to lose a few lbs.

As for your disbelief over my body building, here:

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/back2.jpg

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/IMG_0672.JPG

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/IMG_0438.JPG

It takes me quite a bit of work to lose weight actually, but all I am saying is that you can't use it as an excuse. Most of the problem is lifestyle. And yes, it takes work, but if an obese person isn't willing to work at it to get healthy, but they are always complaining about their weight, than they are lazy. On the other hand, if they are comfortable with themselves, good for them.

And, yes, I guess I p0wnd myself on the doubting the body building thing.

**EDIT**
ALso, BTW, Day...um!!! :Q

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Amused
Look, folks... the web is FULL of valid, reputable websites that shows a definate connection between weight, weight gain, obesity and genetics. The entire scientific community is in agreement here.

And yet the denial among the laymen continues...

I don't know what reputable websites these are and what kind of connections they show. But I'd be willing to bet that any extreme weight gain caused by actual genetic issues that was not in any way influenced by a healthy diet or lifestyle would be an extremely small portion of the overweight people in existence today. I'm thinking somewhere around <1%.

Edit: I'm sure it would be neat if scientists can find a way to modify everyones genetics so that we don't over-eat. Or modify food so that our body does not convert it to fat when we don't use it. But neither things change the fact that the vast majority of obese people simply live EXTREMELY INACTIVE LIFESTYLES. I can say this because I used to live one. I can say this because my sister currently lives one.

Exactly. Unless you have a thalamus disorder which causes extreme weight gain because of non regulation of metabolism, you can't blame genetics.

Gentics +obesity nets 8,940,000 English pages on Google.

The vast majority of relevant hits talks about not only single gene obesity responsible for extreme morbid obesity, but the multiple gene obesity responsible for the extremely easy weight gain in most obese people, while most skinny people can eat the same foods and lead the same lives and never become obese (sure, they might put on a few lbs, but NEVER become obese).

To deny the genetic connection to obesity and blame only environment/behavior is to blind one self to the obvious. Nothing else explains why a great many people can eat whatever they want, whenever they want and NEVER become obese while others can have a strict diet and still gain weight.

Again, obesity is a combination of genetics and environment. Every reputable medical resource will tell you this.

 

[bennylong]

Stop using genetic as an excuse. You will never change anything by using excuse.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: Amused
I said it was a COMBINATION of genetics and environment.

But, of course, you need to paint a black and white world for yourself.

And ANY bodybuilder with any experience at all will tell you that weight, weight gain, fat %, fat distribution and the like are largely controlled by genetics. Sure, behavior can overcome genetics, but for some it takes no work at all, while for others it has to consume their entire lives just to lose a few lbs.

As for your disbelief over my body building, here:

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/back2.jpg

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/IMG_0672.JPG

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/IMG_0438.JPG

It takes me quite a bit of work to lose weight actually, but all I am saying is that you can't use it as an excuse. Most of the problem is lifestyle. And yes, it takes work, but if an obese person isn't willing to work at it to get healthy, but they are always complaining about their weight, than they are lazy. On the other hand, if they are comfortable with themselves, good for them.

And, yes, I guess I p0wnd myself on the doubting the body building thing.

**EDIT**
ALso, BTW, Day...um!!! :Q

Thanks for the compliment. I worked very hard for that, but not as hard as most people think it requires. Commitment is the biggest part of it.

Yes, behavior can overcome the genetics of obesity in most cases. I never said it couldn't.

But asking people to do so is about as effective as asking kids to follow sexual abstinence. The intense hunger and temptation in todays environment is obviously too hard to overcome for 80+% of people genetically prone to obesity.

Let's face it, if we can't keep people from fscking wildly and risking their lives, how in the hell are we going to keep them from eating when their body screams at them to do so?

I think a medical/genetic cure/maintenance system would be far more effective. The more we have pushed diet and exercise, the fatter people have become. The more we shamed, the fatter they became. It's obviously not working. Genetics and environment are obviously too much for most people's self control.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: bennylong
Stop using genetic as an excuse. You will never change anything by using excuse.

Actually, by alowing the medical community to focus on genetics, we can find a way to allow everyone to eat when and what they want and never gain much weight, just like the lucky people who do that every day.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Amused
To deny the genetic connection to obesity and blame only environment/behavior is to blind one self to the obvious. Nothing else explains why a great many people can eat whatever they want, whenever they want and NEVER become obese while others can have a strict diet and still gain weight.

Again, obesity is a combination of genetics and environment. Every reputable medical resource will tell you this.

I'm not denying any genetic connection. I'm denying that fat people aren't normally lazy. If there was a league filled with overweight track runners who simply could not get skinny no matter what they tried, I'd concede to your point.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: bennylong
Stop using genetic as an excuse. You will never change anything by using excuse.

Actually, by alowing the medical community to focus on genetics, we can find a way to allow everyone to eat when and what they want and never gain much weight, just like the lucky people who do that every day.

Pills and genetic fixed FTL. Keep lazy people lazy is all I am hearing.

ie - If you are in pain, instead of figuring out spending the time fixing the cause of the pain, pop a vicadin. If you are depressed, don't try to work through the issues and deal with it like a human being, start popping pills. If you are obese, and you want to be "healthy" (it isn't a helathy way of thinking that is for sure), just take a magic pill and all your problems go away. It is no wonder so many kids are on EPO and steroids nowadays.

**EDIT**
Another way of saying it is, don't take personal responsibility for your problems, there are a whole bunch of mitigating factors to your issues (it really isn't your fault or problem)... We have a "cure" for it.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Amused
To deny the genetic connection to obesity and blame only environment/behavior is to blind one self to the obvious. Nothing else explains why a great many people can eat whatever they want, whenever they want and NEVER become obese while others can have a strict diet and still gain weight.

Again, obesity is a combination of genetics and environment. Every reputable medical resource will tell you this.

I'm not denying any genetic connection. I'm denying that fat people aren't normally lazy. If there was a league filled with overweight track runners who simply could not get skinny no matter what they tried, I'd concede to your point.

Cart before the horse? Chicken, or the egg?

Is the track runner skinny because he runs, or does he run because he's genetically built for running? Sure, a runner can lose and gain 20 or so lbs, but will someone who was a professional runner ever become obese, no matter how much they let themselves go? In the vast majority of cases, of course not.

There is a large % of the population that could never become obese, no matter how much they tried. Sure, they might get a little belly, if that, but they could never be obese.

That's the other side of the genetic spectrum.

It simply amazes me that people can't look around and figure this out. Hell, all the medical pages on obesity and genetics take this for a given.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Amused
To deny the genetic connection to obesity and blame only environment/behavior is to blind one self to the obvious. Nothing else explains why a great many people can eat whatever they want, whenever they want and NEVER become obese while others can have a strict diet and still gain weight.

Again, obesity is a combination of genetics and environment. Every reputable medical resource will tell you this.

I'm not denying any genetic connection. I'm denying that fat people aren't normally lazy. If there was a league filled with overweight track runners who simply could not get skinny no matter what they tried, I'd concede to your point.

"The Biggest Loser" FTW. Prrof positive that fat people given enough motivation and will power can lose weight.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: bennylong
Stop using genetic as an excuse. You will never change anything by using excuse.

Actually, by alowing the medical community to focus on genetics, we can find a way to allow everyone to eat when and what they want and never gain much weight, just like the lucky people who do that every day.

Pills and genetic fixed FTL. Keep lazy people lazy is all I am hearing.

ie - If you are in pain, instead of figuring out spending the time fixing the cause of the pain, pop a vicadin. If you are depressed, don't try to work through the issues and deal with it like a human being, start popping pills. If you are obese, and you want to be "healthy" (it isn't a helathy way of thinking that is for sure), just take a magic pill and all your problems go away. It is no wonder so many kids are on EPO and steroids nowadays.

The only way to change the situation is to change the environement or the genetics.

Either way is a fix. You either adapt the environment to the genetics, or adapt the genetics to the environment.

You can keep playing the lazy card all you want. But the plain fact is, most obese people are far from lazy. It's an old, tired stereotype. Most simply cannot control their body's natural urges to store fat for a starvation cycle that will never come... or does come over and over again because of yo-yo dieting.

Natural urges are MUCH harder to overcome than people give credit for. If it wasn't, sexual morality wouldn't be just a pipe dram over the entire course of human history.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Amused
To deny the genetic connection to obesity and blame only environment/behavior is to blind one self to the obvious. Nothing else explains why a great many people can eat whatever they want, whenever they want and NEVER become obese while others can have a strict diet and still gain weight.

Again, obesity is a combination of genetics and environment. Every reputable medical resource will tell you this.

I'm not denying any genetic connection. I'm denying that fat people aren't normally lazy. If there was a league filled with overweight track runners who simply could not get skinny no matter what they tried, I'd concede to your point.

"The Biggest Loser" FTW. Prrof positive that fat people given enough motivation and will power can lose weight.

And most obese people who lose the weight end up fatter than before. More than 80% as a matter of fact. The majority of the The Biggest Loser folks WILL end up obese again. I'll bet money on it.

It's the long term that matters, too, because sooner or later your body WILL drive you crazy in it's attempt to gain back the fat stores it lost in the last starvation cycle.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Amused
Is the track runner skinny because he runs, or does he run because he's genetically built for running? Sure, a runner can lose and gain 20 or so lbs, but will someone who was a professional runner ever become obese, no matter how much they let themselves go? In the vast majority of cases, of course not.

So you believe those that are track runners were destined to be track runners, those that are basketball players were destined to be basketball players, and those that are fat were destined to be fat. Why even try? We should all just sit on the couch and wait for our success to hit us.

I'd like to take you up on this challenge of a large % of the population that cannot become obese. Find someone willing to sit in their room and not leave it for the next 7 years. Each day they will consume exactly what one of my relatives consumes on a daily basis and we will see how much weight said individual gains. The most exercise they will do is going to the bathroom.

The highlights of their diet will be macaroni and cheese, pizza, soda, grilled cheese, pasta, chicken nuggets and ice cream.

Edit: Oh and if that diet sounds nasty or unhealthy, realize that these are staples in a kids diet. Especially maccaroni and cheese and grilled cheese. Poorer families buy this stuff by the truckload because pound for pound it is cheap and requires very little effort to prepare.