Explain Windows to me please

[Skaendo]

"They changed it, now it sucks!" It happened when we went from Windows 98/2000 to Windows XP, it happened when we went from XP to Vista, and now it's happening again as we go from 7 to 8.1.

Windows 8/8.1 is the only one that I 'hated'.

Windows 8/8.1 Start screen is not a problem for anybody with a functioning brain. Simply press windows, start typing, click what you were searching for, and go about your business. So it covers your windows, big deal? Nobody cares. Get over yourself.

With Win7, Start->program, working, or Start->Documents->document, working. No extra typing involved.

I'm not afraid of having to do a little extra typing. Hell, I run Debian testing on my main unit, and use CLI. It's just extra hoops to jump through to get anywhere with Win8. Like not even having an option to go straight to your desktop without using the Start Screen, or leaving out the Start button. That was just retarded. And hmmm, seems that they reverted back to a classic desktop because the majority of people thought that Win8 sucked. I believe that Win8 would have been better off just calling itself a tablet version.

 

[Maximilian]

Metro was never as bad as people made it out to be.

Yeah it was. I said two years ago they would backpeddle on this with the next release:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2268628&highlight=


Now we have the start menu back and metro is pushed to the background with the start screen and charms bar eliminated completely. Metro violates so many basic usability principles its unreal, there is no way a UI like that would ever take off. It was a bad idea then and remains a bad idea now, good riddance.

 

[showb1z]

Now we have the start menu back and metro is pushed to the background with the start screen and charms bar eliminated completely. Metro violates so many basic usability principles its unreal, there is no way a UI like that would ever take off. It was a bad idea then and remains a bad idea now, good riddance.

You can already boot straight to desktop and disable hot corners. Charms bar is only necessary in metro apps which you don't ever have to use unless you want to.
It's the same misinformation time and time again. Aesthetics aside, if people would actually bother to use W8 they'd know there's nothing you can't do at least as fast in W8 as in W7. After 2 years it's time to get over it and move on.

 

[Maximilian]

You can already boot straight to desktop and disable hot corners. Charms bar is only necessary in metro apps which you don't ever have to use unless you want to.
It's the same misinformation time and time again. Aesthetics aside, if people would actually bother to use W8 they'd know there's nothing you can't do at least as fast in W8 as in W7. After 2 years it's time to get over it and move on.

Rah rah rah windows 8 defense squad to the rescue! Its just lazy people, the interface is great!

Yeah clearly....

 

[ArisVer]

You mean I can do this with the metro? I can only use one window at a time but I can switch between them in a flash.

 

[lifeblood]

The Windows 8 and Vista hate can be summed down to one thing: People hate change.
...
Windows 8/8.1 Start screen is not a problem for anybody with a functioning brain.

I use Win 8 on a tablet and like it. I use Win 8 on my main rig and like all of it except the GUI which I find works great with touch but not with mouse and keyboard.

Personally, I love change. I loved ditching my cassette player for a cd player, then ditching that for a mp3 player. I love all change that makes things better. I really loved ditching that heavy CRT TV for a LCD TV. But Metro did not make things better when using a mouse and keyboard, and I do not like change that makes my life harder.

But hey, maybe your right and we're all idiots who are afraid of change. Fine. But us idiots aren't buying Win 8 and if MS wants to stay in this business, they need to give us something we are willing to buy. It looks like MS got the message and Win10 will give us what we want. And Metro will still be there for you enlightened folks who want to continue using it.

 

[coffeejunkee]

Rah rah rah windows 8 defense squad to the rescue! Its just lazy people, the interface is great!

Yeah clearly....

Ok, the anti-metro people won. Look, if it were up to me Windows would be fully customizable and you could use it like win 95, win xp, vista or 7, you would have your aero and your basic grey layout and everything in between. You could choose between metro or classic style and you could have a start button or a fullscreen metro screen, just what you prefer. But it's not up to me and for some reason Microsoft seems to think in a different way.

The point is not even lazy people, but rather the incredible amount of irrational critique that somehow the full screen start menu is impossible to work with. Overall, what this whole win8 hate thing actually shows isn't that the fullscreen start menu is so terrible to work with but that many people don't really know how to work with Windows. There's this popular YT video by a 'tech journalist' that complains he can't find the control panel since it isn't in the start menu anymore. Well guess what, see that big 'desktop' tile? Maybe click it to go to the desktop so you can open win explorer and access control panel from there? It's only been there for like 20 years.

tl,dr: can you still have fullscreen start menu in win10?

 

[sweenish]

Yeah it was. I said two years ago they would backpeddle on this with the next release:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2268628&highlight=


Now we have the start menu back and metro is pushed to the background with the start screen and charms bar eliminated completely. Metro violates so many basic usability principles its unreal, there is no way a UI like that would ever take off. It was a bad idea then and remains a bad idea now, good riddance.

So, because you said so, I have to be wrong? Great counter argument.

At it's worst, it was one click/keystroke slower than the start menu. Properly configured, it's almost always the same or faster.

People didn't want to adjust to the new thing. I get that. People fear change. It's just sad and stupid that the same attitude is all over this board. You know the kicker? I didn't use metro apps outside of settings. I could not have cared less for the apps, but I am perfectly fine with the start screen. So maybe you still get some credit there, since I ignored the apps. But I don't hate the start screen. And I'm smart enough to realize I don't have to expend a lot energy hating something I don't have to use. Easier to just not use it.

The other issue is the wholesale dismissal of the OS based on the thing most people were too lazy to configure. Win 8 as a whole, is greatly improved on Windows 7 as far as speed and security are concerned.

 

[sweenish]

Windows 8/8.1 is the only one that I 'hated'.



With Win7, Start->program, working, or Start->Documents->document, working. No extra typing involved.

I'm not afraid of having to do a little extra typing. Hell, I run Debian testing on my main unit, and use CLI. It's just extra hoops to jump through to get anywhere with Win8. Like not even having an option to go straight to your desktop without using the Start Screen, or leaving out the Start button. That was just retarded. And hmmm, seems that they reverted back to a classic desktop because the majority of people thought that Win8 sucked. I believe that Win8 would have been better off just calling itself a tablet version.

Win 7, assuming program is pinned to taskbar.
click
If accessing a specific document in program that supports jump lists (most programs do where this would be happening)
right click, click document

Win 8, assuming program is pinned to taskbar.
click
If accessing a specific document in program that supports jump lists (most programs do where this would be happening)
right click, click document

Win 7, assuming program is pinned in start menu.
start, program.

Win 8, assuming program is pinned to start.
start, program

Win 7, selecting recent document from start
start, recents, click file

Win 8, selecting recent document from start
start, start typing file name, click file
or open program and open file from there.

Win 7, opening unpinned program
start, all programs, program folder, click program
or start, start typing program name, click program

Win 8, opening unpinned program
start, down arrow, scroll to program, click program
or start, start typing program name, click program
or (assuming start is configured to take you to all apps first)
start, scroll to program, click program

There is only one situation where I think Windows 8 is conceivably slower. I don't know for sure, I've never used recent documents in the start menu, ever. But instead of complaining about it to everyone that would listen, I disabled it and moved on.

For basically EVERYTHING ELSE, the number of steps are exactly the same. Usability does not go down the toilet. It just takes some getting used to. In at least one case, it's even faster.

Backpedaling on the UI doesn't mean it was awful, it means consumers rejected it. Consumers have hated plenty of good products and supported plenty of terrible products. Betamax was the superior format. Also, see most reality shows. Refer to Top 40 radio. SACD should be mainstream today, but it isn't. Thunderbolt or DisplayPort should have replaced HDMI by now.

Consumer rejection or acceptance can not be used as a measure of how good something actually is, because it's obviously not true. It only measures what they like or dislike, and that does not correlate to quality.

 

[imagoon]

The Windows 8 and Vista hate can be summed down to one thing: People hate change.

"They changed it, now it sucks!" It happened when we went from Windows 98/2000 to Windows XP, it happened when we went from XP to Vista, and now it's happening again as we go from 7 to 8.1.

"All of this has happened before; all of this will happen again."

Myself, I welcomed it with open arms. I ran Vista from an early beta version right till RTM, whereupon I secured (thanks to that old Bing Rewards thing that gave you points for playing games) several copies of Vista Ultimate and Home Premium.

Windows 8/8.1 Start screen is not a problem for anybody with a functioning brain. Simply press windows, start typing, click what you were searching for, and go about your business. So it covers your windows, big deal? Nobody cares. Get over yourself.

Except people do care, Get over yourself.

See how that worked? People have opinions. I personally find Vista and by extension Server 2008 laggy, slow and annoying (way to many extra UAC windows is one example). Windows 7 / 2008R2 is pretty good. Windows 8 / Server 2012 -> works well but metro is pointless. I am not about to sort and tweak the 45 servers Metro screens to make the useful. For certain servers like the Exchange servers the tools get pinned to the start bar. For the rest we deal with the rainbow clutter mess to start the admin tools if needed. Hilarity ensues through since Server Manager includes a "start menu" for system administration which to me indicates even the MS guys didn't like it. Want to log out? Hit the start screen... want to reboot... dick around trying to get the charms bar to pop out in the terminal service screen.

Windows 8.1 / Server 2012 R2 -> the start menu button rocks (terminal services esp, and the right click menu), and they put the "Reboot / Shutdown" icon in the start panel right near the log out buttons on the start screen. It mostly has interface tweaks that make it so much more useful. I haven't had a reason to use "charms" on 2012R2 yet. I hope it stays that way.

This stuff matters to people that do this junk every day 40-70 hours a week. If you are just surfing the web and playing games at home, it might be much more tolerable.

It is all about opinion and workflow. Our helpdesk numbers generally agree that Windows 8 is a step back from 7. 10 looks like a "7 killer."

--edit--

PS I like change when it is a step forward. Server 2012 Dedup? Amazing for production servers. 2012R2 improved that even more. DFSR, FSRM, Redundant DHCP, granular share access control (Ie block by IP etc), AD recycle bin, IIS 7.5 to list just a few changes that have really improved the server scape.

 

[Skaendo]

Windows 8 Defense Squad. Thats a good one.

Currently Win8 is used by 4.66% of computers, Win 8.1, 5.57%.
While Win7 is at 44.01%.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=11

The world has spoken, and nearly no one likes Win8. Period. Get over that.

 

[Maximilian]

Windows 8 Defense Squad. Thats a good one.

Currently Win8 is used by 4.66% of computers, Win 8.1, 5.57%.
While Win7 is at 44.01%.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=11

The world has spoken, and nearly no one likes Win8. Period. Get over that.

Oh but haven't you heard? Windows 8 is amazing! Its people who are at fault, lazy luddites who fear change! How dare they reject something new!! Metro is the future guys! #getwiththetimes! </sarcasm>

 

[Skaendo]

Oh but haven't you heard? Windows 8 is amazing! Its people who are at fault, lazy luddites who fear change! How dare they reject something new!! Metro is the future guys! #getwiththetimes! </sarcasm>

I wish that there was some kind of thumbs up/down button for posts. I would thumb up yours as many times as I could!

I would even put money on once Win10 is released, mainstream & extended support will either diminish greatly or even just disappear for Win8/8.1.

 

[Mem]

Oh but haven't you heard? Windows 8 is amazing! Its people who are at fault, lazy luddites who fear change! How dare they reject something new!! Metro is the future guys! #getwiththetimes! </sarcasm>

No OS is amazing,but Win8 can behave quite like a normal desktop OS with mouse and keyboard,problem is a lot of FUD around and some users like to ignore all the good points which do outweigh the negatives of Win8,funny how Win10 is a lot like Win8.1 with a third party start menu which a lot of users have anyway ,says a lot for Win8.1 .

As to Metro who cares GUI changes all the time,you either deal with it or don't use it,nobody is forced to use any OS.


Take me for example I use Linux because I like it more then Windows,ie better layout,superior Start menu etc,but Windows has its own strengths which we all are aware of,end of the day can't speak for all the people out there but just for yourself only.

Don't worry this will continue in Win10 by some users they love to complain,personally looking forward to Win10 new OS to play with.

Win8.1 below with Start8.

 

[coffeejunkee]

Windows 8 Defense Squad. Thats a good one.

Currently Win8 is used by 4.66% of computers, Win 8.1, 5.57%.
While Win7 is at 44.01%.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=11

The world has spoken, and nearly no one likes Win8. Period. Get over that.

Sales say nothing about quality. If they did it would mean that Celine Dion is better than the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin combined. Plus there are many other factors at work here, such as declining pc market in general and the fact large amounts of people want their os downgraded to win7 without even having used win8 just because they read on internet that it's bad.

Oh but haven't you heard? Windows 8 is amazing! Its people who are at fault, lazy luddites who fear change! How dare they reject something new!! Metro is the future guys! #getwiththetimes! </sarcasm>

You seem to be enjoying that sweet taste of victory. So, no win8 hatetrain thing going around at all? Personally I don't really care, I'm just amazed at all the irrational hate towards something that took me about 30 mins to get used to and actually isn't so bad at all. But I liked Vista too.

imagoon: I agree, no place for metro in server versions.

 

[Maximilian]

You seem to be enjoying that sweet taste of victory. So, no win8 hatetrain thing going around at all?

Its nice to see logic and common sense win out over the hipster "lets like it because its new" mentality. Or the "lets just roll over and accept it" mentality. :|

Ya don't like something? Bitch about it. Ya like something? Rave about it. Communication bro, wonderful thing.

 

[Skaendo]

The Windows 8 Defense is going strong. It doesn't matter what anyone says. Win8 marketshare has been low since inception and is on the decline today, while Win7 is on the rise. MS knows that they screwed up, that is why the Start Menu is coming back and the Start Screen is out on laptops/desktops. Period. The last 10 people that use Win8 are all here in this forum promoting Win8 as the greatest thing since sliced cheese, when clearly it has and continues to fail.

 

[ControlD]

The Windows 8 Defense is going strong. It doesn't matter what anyone says. Win8 marketshare has been low since inception and is on the decline today, while Win7 is on the rise. MS knows that they screwed up, that is why the Start Menu is coming back and the Start Screen is out on laptops/desktops. Period. The last 10 people that use Win8 are all here in this forum promoting Win8 as the greatest thing since sliced cheese, when clearly it has and continues to fail.

Better make it 11, 'cause I use it too and have no major problems with it lol.

At the same time, I'm looking forward to less Metro and more classic desktop in the next release.

 

[Mem]

The Windows 8 Defense is going strong. It doesn't matter what anyone says. Win8 marketshare has been low since inception and is on the decline today, while Win7 is on the rise. MS knows that they screwed up, that is why the Start Menu is coming back and the Start Screen is out on laptops/desktops. Period. The last 10 people that use Win8 are all here in this forum promoting Win8 as the greatest thing since sliced cheese, when clearly it has and continues to fail.

Now now don't put words into peoples mouths,we all know no OS is the greatest even with my favourite Linux distros.

Technically Win10 has both ie Start menu and Start Screen,down to user preference so best of both worlds.


Linky http://winsupersite.com/windows-10/windows-10-tip-swap-between-start-menu-and-start-screen

 

[Skaendo]

Now now don't put words into peoples mouths,we all know no OS is the greatest even with my favourite Linux distros. Technically Win10 has both ie Start menu and Start Screen,down to user preference so best of both worlds. Linky http://winsupersite.com/windows-10/w...d-start-screen

It goes on to say......
Those with traditional PCs or 2-in-1s will get the Start menu by default. Those with tablets will get the Start screen by default.

Which I think is great, this is how a good hybrid OS should act IMO.

 

[escrow4]

The Windows 8 Defense is going strong. It doesn't matter what anyone says. Win8 marketshare has been low since inception and is on the decline today, while Win7 is on the rise. MS knows that they screwed up, that is why the Start Menu is coming back and the Start Screen is out on laptops/desktops. Period. The last 10 people that use Win8 are all here in this forum promoting Win8 as the greatest thing since sliced cheese, when clearly it has and continues to fail.

Its failed because all the sheep listen to the the other sheep and never try it out. Its like when my bank changed its UI - noooooooo! its the apocalypse!!!!! bring back the 1995 menus! I'm changing banks! - except that the vast bulk never did. They just whine and moan. Then they used it, shut up, and moved on. Windows 10 is Windows 8 with a start menu and some bolt on's. File Explorer is still not tabbed, the kernel still has old cruft and API's from 1995 and nothing has really changed. Metro is still the beating heart, even though its in the background. Windows 10 is more like Windows 8.2.

 

[Skaendo]

Its failed because all the sheep listen to the the other sheep and never try it out. Its like when my bank changed its UI - noooooooo! its the apocalypse!!!!! bring back the 1995 menus! I'm changing banks! - except that the vast bulk never did. They just whine and moan. Then they used it, shut up, and moved on. Windows 10 is Windows 8 with a start menu and some bolt on's. File Explorer is still not tabbed, the kernel still has old cruft and API's from 1995 and nothing has really changed. Metro is still the beating heart, even though its in the background. Windows 10 is more like Windows 8.2.

What about all the people that went into their favorite store to buy a new PC and looked at the demo models on display running Win8 and said, Wow I don't like that, and didn't buy a PC with Win8 on it. You can't call people sheep like that. And you can't say the vast bulk never moved on because there never was a vast bulk of Win8 users. At the best Win8.1 had just over 7% of marketshare, that was Sept 2013, and it has pretty much been on a decline since.

 

[Maximilian]

Its failed because all the sheep listen to the the other sheep and never try it out. Its like when my bank changed its UI - noooooooo! its the apocalypse!!!!! bring back the 1995 menus! I'm changing banks! - except that the vast bulk never did. They just whine and moan. Then they used it, shut up, and moved on. Windows 10 is Windows 8 with a start menu and some bolt on's. File Explorer is still not tabbed, the kernel still has old cruft and API's from 1995 and nothing has really changed. Metro is still the beating heart, even though its in the background. Windows 10 is more like Windows 8.2.

So the people at your bank didn't like the new UI, moaned about it, but got used to it and stuck with it anyway.

Just like people did with windows 8 they all got used to it learned to live with it and moved on... oh wait no that's the exact opposite of what happened with windows 8 :awe:

Yeah sheep will be sheep huh, curse those sheep for never trying anything new... smartphones, those newfangled tablet doohickeys, nintendo wii, that google glass thing, all completely ignored because sheep don't like things that are new or different. Just think how amazing phones would be now if the iPhone had taken off! Still stuck with this Nokia N997664i BS because sheep never change D: Oh wait...

 

[ControlD]

You guys, I swear lol.

Here are two things that neither side seems to be able to come to grips with:

(1) Some people use and actually like Windows 8/8.1! These people don't have to "settle" for anything. They simply like it.
(2) Some people actually hate Windows 8/8.1! Those people aren't morons or mentally challenged, they simply don't like it.

At this point every single thread that has anything to do with Windows ends up in this endless back and forth. While entertaining, not much gets accomplished. If you don't like Windows 8, great. If you love it, great. Just realize both sides are right and both sides are wrong, jump on the Peace Train and roll along.

 

[sandorski]

Ya, Metro is dumb, but people seem to think it needed to be used, it didn't. There has always been a traditional Windows Desktop in Win8, there just wasn't the traditional Start button.

It's fast, it's stable, and it's a good OS that just takes 10 minutes of research to learn about the changes.