Explosion at NY Port Authority

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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
Um. You seem to be having difficulty with addressing the fact that right wing terrorists have killed more people in the US since 9/11 than islamic terror groups. So statistically speaking a trump supporter most likely dressed as a brownshirt or as a klansman. was behind this attack.



Why can't you accept the science bro? Does it go against your programming?


1) What is your source for this?

2) What about since 9/10? Does the argument change? Or who has klled more since 10/12/2000, the USS Cole bombing? Or since 2/26/93 when they bombed the WTC? Or does your argument only work when you ignore these major attacks?
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,820
136
Hilarious. We get bombed because of where we choose to label another country's capital, you blame us. If France says they want to recognize Tel-Aviv as Israel's capital, do we get to bomb them if we disagree? Blaming Trump in any way here is disgusting, you are sympathizing with terrorists over our democratically elected POTUS over something we absolutely have a right to do and affects no one other than the feels. I've usually not agreed with you, but just figured it is what it is, different perspective. But you blaming Trump here, absolutely pathetic.

No, I'm not sympathizing with terrorists. What I'm saying is that Trump's policy is ignorant, and that previous presidents avoided formally recognizing Jerusalem as the capital for a good reason -- it provokes terrorist attacks and sets back the peace process by being needlessly antagonistic.

What you're basically arguing is that Trump must never be held responsible for the consequences of his actions. News flash: policy decisions can have repercussions beyond those you intended. Smart presidents take those into account.
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
No, I'm not sympathizing with terrorists. What I'm saying is that Trump's policy is ignorant, and that previous presidents avoided formally recognizing Jerusalem as the capital for a good reason -- it provokes terrorist attacks and sets back the peace process by being needlessly antagonistic.

What you're basically arguing is that Trump must never be held responsible for the consequences of his actions. News flash: policy decisions can have repercussions beyond those you intended. Smart presidents take those into account.

Going to war based on lies to get nonexistent WMD's, that is something that someone should be held responsible for. Telling an ally that we recognize their capital isn't something we should be attacked for. You are siding with terror because you hate Trump that much.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
86,991
53,215
136
Going to war based on lies to get nonexistent WMD's, that is something that someone should be held responsible for. Telling an ally that we recognize their capital isn't something we should be attacked for. You are siding with terror because you hate Trump that much.

Today I learned that criticizing Trump for an irrational and stupid foreign policy move means Siding With Terror. lol.

Trump made a dumb mistake and now 4 people have paid for it. Hopefully no more Americans are injured or killed because of this stupidity.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
1) What is your source for this?

2) What about since 9/10? Does the argument change? Or who has klled more since 10/12/2000, the USS Cole bombing? Or since 2/26/93 when they bombed the WTC? Or does your argument only work when you ignore these major attacks?


Still waiting for this to be answered. I love how the line is drawn at 9/11, because if you move the bar one day forward, the leftist house of cards in this thread falls a part.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,985
8,684
136
Pro-tip: arguing that an immigration ban on certain Muslim-majority countries isn't a Muslim-ban because it doesn't specifically declare itself as a Muslim-ban, ignores the actual reality of what the law actually does in reality, which is decrease the total number of possible Muslim immigrants.

It's the same tactic that state governments use to ban abortion using the specific wording of laws, that, amazingly leave out language stating at the get-go that it's an abortion ban.

Passing a law that states that all abortion providers in the state need to have attending status at a specified hospital, or that the main hallway of an abortion provider has to be at least 18'6'' wide, has the same effect, nevermind the language used in the statute itself.

Look, we realize that apologists are going to apologize. But please, quit trying to use semantics to get around what the actual intent of the law is, just because the title of the law isn't "Ye Olde Trump Muslim Ban".

See: Intent of law vs. spirit of law.

This isn't some new legal philosophical argument.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Today I learned that criticizing Trump for an irrational and stupid foreign policy move means Siding With Terror. lol.

Trump made a dumb mistake and now 4 people have paid for it. Hopefully no more Americans are injured or killed because of this stupidity.

That's pretty much a textbook example of victim blaming. No, Trump is not to blame for terrorists deciding to kill people over some perceived slight. Questioning the wisdom of his action in from a cost-benefit perspective is fair, but no way is he to blame for what these jackwagon murdering terrorists decide to do in the name of their particular brand of barbaric insanity.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
86,991
53,215
136
That's pretty much a textbook example of victim blaming. No, Trump is not to blame for terrorists deciding to kill people over some perceived slight. Questioning the wisdom of his action in from a cost-benefit perspective is fair, but no way is he to blame for what these jackwagon murdering terrorists decide to do in the name of their particular brand of barbaric insanity.

Trump is not the victim, so it's not in any way victim blaming. It's holding Trump accountable for his policy choices.

When Trump does things that he knew in advance would cause anger and unrest then he shares some part of the blame for it. It's entirely possible this person would have perpetrated some attack absent Trump's policy change but when people attacking us specifically cite Trump's policies as the reason we shouldn't pretend they aren't part of the problem. None of this does anything to change the attacker's responsibility for what they did but it does tell us that the president should stop doing stupid things like that so the rest of us don't have to suffer for it.
 
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Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,820
136
Going to war based on lies to get nonexistent WMD's, that is something that someone should be held responsible for. Telling an ally that we recognize their capital isn't something we should be attacked for. You are siding with terror because you hate Trump that much.

I'm not siding with terror; stop being willfully obtuse.

I'm saying that stupid policy decisions have consequences. If you poke a wasp's nest with a stick and get stung, you don't get to pretend that it's solely the wasps' fault. I am not excusing a horrible act; I'm explaining it. This would never have happened if Trump hadn't implemented the policy he did, and you know it.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
I'm not siding with terror; stop being willfully obtuse.

I'm saying that stupid policy decisions have consequences. If you poke a wasp's nest with a stick and get stung, you don't get to pretend that it's solely the wasps' fault. I am not excusing a horrible act; I'm explaining it. This would never have happened if Trump hadn't implemented the policy he did, and you know it.


Yea, we never had attacks until this.

You want a president that tries to lead from behind again. It didn't work before.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,820
136
Yea, we never had attacks until this.

You want a president that tries to lead from behind again. It didn't work before.

Of course there were attacks before, but why they attacked was different. This terrorist attacked explicitly because of an unnecessarily confrontational Trump policy decision made days earlier, where at least some other attacks were prompted by entirely necessary battles (such as fighting ISIS). Not all policies are the same, and it's simplistic to act as if all terrorist acts are unavoidable.

This isn't about "leading from behind." It's called not being a damn fool and invoking a policy that not only won't accomplish its goals, but was only likely to prompt violent reactions from people who might not have even considered attacks before. You'd better hope like hell that there isn't a more serious attack linked to this policy, because there will be blood on your hands.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-...dents-said-about-israel-and-jerusalem/9234736


"But this is what Mr Obama told pro-Israel lobby group the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) on June 4, 2008, in his first foreign policy speech after capturing the Democratic nomination the day before:

"Let me be clear. Israel's security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable.

"The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper — but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognised and defensible borders.

"Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided. I have no illusions that this will be easy."
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,820
136
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-...dents-said-about-israel-and-jerusalem/9234736


"But this is what Mr Obama told pro-Israel lobby group the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) on June 4, 2008, in his first foreign policy speech after capturing the Democratic nomination the day before:

"Let me be clear. Israel's security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable.

"The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper — but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognised and defensible borders.

"Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided. I have no illusions that this will be easy."

But he still didn't formally change the recognition. That's the whole point.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
Of course there were attacks before, but why they attacked was different. This terrorist attacked explicitly because of an unnecessarily confrontational Trump policy decision made days earlier, where at least some other attacks were prompted by entirely necessary battles (such as fighting ISIS). Not all policies are the same, and it's simplistic to act as if all terrorist acts are unavoidable.

This isn't about "leading from behind." It's called not being a damn fool and invoking a policy that not only won't accomplish its goals, but was only likely to prompt violent reactions from people who might not have even considered attacks before. You'd better hope like hell that there isn't a more serious attack linked to this policy, because there will be blood on your hands.


We harmed no ones rights, we made a gesture towards an ally of our's. We should shouldn't pass on doing what we think is the right thing to do to appease a bunch of people that mostly hate us already, not when it doesn't affect them, we shouldn't be such pussies.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,820
136
We harmed no ones rights, we made a gesture towards an ally of our's. We should shouldn't pass on doing what we think is the right thing to do to appease a bunch of people that mostly hate us already, not when it doesn't affect them, we shouldn't be such pussies.

It spits on their identity, so it definitely does do some harm.

Do you think this is actually going to bring Palestinians closer to a peace deal? That they'll someday just decide "well, guess this was going to happen anyway, might as well sit down and talk?" It's like you've forgotten the intifada existed. You don't implement policies hoping that maybe, eventually, the other side will stop being angry and come around.

Also, feel free to stop being a sexist asshole who describes people as "pussies."
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
It spits on their identity, so it definitely does do some harm.

Do you think this is actually going to bring Palestinians closer to a peace deal? That they'll someday just decide "well, guess this was going to happen anyway, might as well sit down and talk?" It's like you've forgotten the intifada existed. You don't implement policies hoping that maybe, eventually, the other side will stop being angry and come around.

Also, feel free to stop being a sexist asshole who describes people as "pussies."


We can still achieve peace. But that doesn't mean we cannot draw our line in the sand for what we think is right. It isn't like we've had a ton of success in this area in the past and now suddenly this move is going to make progress take a u-turn.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,820
136
We can still achieve peace. But that doesn't mean we cannot draw our line in the sand for what we think is right. It isn't like we've had a ton of success in this area in the past and now suddenly this move is going to make progress take a u-turn.

It's a question of where that line in the sand is, though. Progress won't necessarily take a U-turn, but that doesn't mean this is moving things forward, either. And again, there's a real chance that this could have serious consequences that Trump and crew clearly didn't factor in... like, say, terrorist attacks.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,792
4,885
136
We can still achieve peace. But that doesn't mean we cannot draw our line in the sand for what we think is right. It isn't like we've had a ton of success in this area in the past and now suddenly this move is going to make progress take a u-turn.

Damn, that's naive.

WE, meaning The United States (and most of the rest of the world) were pretty much of the opinion that a two state solution was the best chance for lasting peace.

Trump just took a fat smelly dump all over that hope.



.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,222
14,213
136
Trump is not the victim, so it's not in any way victim blaming. It's holding Trump accountable for his policy choices.

When Trump does things that he knew in advance would cause anger and unrest then he shares some part of the blame for it. It's entirely possible this person would have perpetrated some attack absent Trump's policy change but when people attacking us specifically cite Trump's policies as the reason we shouldn't pretend they aren't part of the problem. None of this does anything to change the attacker's responsibility for what they did but it does tell us that the president should stop doing stupid things like that so the rest of us don't have to suffer for it.

Exactly. It's like if the mayor of your town decides to put all the police on leave for 2 weeks and lo and behold, there is a huge spike in crime. We can't blame the mayor for that, right? It's the criminals' fault, after all.

One person's fault doesn't change the moral blameworthiness of another, and vice versa. It's a false dilemma.
 
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