Explosion in central Oslo, Norwegian Primeminister's Office was hit.

[Jaskalas]

I would.

This isn't really terrorism without the (likely, foreseeable) prospect of it happening again in the future. It will have no impact on political processes or outlooks.

1: They can merely THINK it'll happen again regardless of evidence to back it up.

2: In what manner of time? Sometime in the next decade another massacre is likely, no?

 

[Nebor]

1: They can merely THINK it'll happen again regardless of evidence to back it up.

2: In what manner of time? Sometime in the next decade another massacre is likely, no?

Since there wasn't one in the decade prior, I'd say that's not too likely. Attacks need to be frequent enough, and dramatic enough to catch media attention in order to effect political change. Sure, we all cried a tear for our Norwegian brothers, but we're not going to launch a Global War on (Christian) Terror because of it. I doubt if any laws or policies will see significant change in Norway.

What would you say the world, or even Norwegians are now afraid of? White guys? Christians? Summer camps? Islands?

 

[Whiskey16]

This isn't really terrorism without the (likely, foreseeable) prospect of it happening again in the future. It will have no impact on political processes or outlooks.

With the continued fervor to demean and target Islam and calls from the likes of Nebor who advocate genocide (1 2 3), there will continue to be other individuals and groups in this world who will be encouraged to again commit similar terrorism.

This Norwegian frequented internet message boards. Take what you write and see what others write and then consider what ought to be tolerated without open condemnation.

Debating Friday's action as not being terrorism is a sign of extremism and a biased attempt to diminish this man's crimes and the direct relation to the wider societal bigotry and political xenophobic movements.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Geert Wilders has stated over and over again that there is a war between the (right-voting) citizens on one side and the socialists and Muslims on the other side. He also has said that anyone not willing to fight against them is a collaborator, and that Muslims (and socialists for not opposing them) are the new facists and the Quran very similar to Mein Kampf.
Exactly that is what Breivik used a lot to describe what had to be done.

Wilders has said his party opposes violence and that Breivik is a lunatic, but he is not taking back any of those words, meaning that he still thinks that it's a war against 'the left' like Breivik says too.

Some minor politician within Wilders' party even used the lie that 'The Norvegian socialists want to bomb Israel' to say that the killings were not bad on Twitter. When people reacted pissed off to it, and someone said he wouldn't mind it if that guy and his family would die in a car accident or something he whined that that was a death threat, and that he'd therefor stop using Twitter. He of course didn't apologize for his remark, although he did delete it to remove the evidence.

 

[Nebor]

With the continued fervor to demean and target Islam and calls from the likes of Nebor who advocate genocide (1 2 3), there will continue to be other individuals and groups in this world who will be encouraged to again commit similar terrorism.

This Norwegian frequented internet message boards. Take what you write and see what others write and then consider what ought to be tolerated without open condemnation.

Debating Friday's action as not being terrorism is a sign of extremism and a biased attempt to diminish this man's crimes and the direct relation to the wider societal bigotry and political xenophobic movements.

How many muslims were killed in Norway?

 

[Jaskalas]

How many muslims were killed in Norway?

If your argument questions the killer's motives based on his targets, I'm sure we've already read and he would tell you that they were 'race traitors'.

 

[woolfe9999]

OK, this is some seriously messed up shit:

http://www.slate.com/id/2300098/?gt1=38001

This is the jail the shooter may be sent to, complete with flat screen TV's and mini fridges in the inmate's "rooms", large windows to let in more sunlight, jogging trails and no iron bars. A country club, or maybe like a dormitory for spoiled, misbehaved rich kids.

/boggle

- wolf

 

[werepossum]

OK, this is some seriously messed up shit:

http://www.slate.com/id/2300098/?gt1=38001

This is the jail the shooter may be sent to, complete with flat screen TV's and mini fridges in the inmate's "rooms", large windows to let in more sunlight, jogging trails and no iron bars. A country club, or maybe like a dormitory for spoiled, misbehaved rich kids.

/boggle

- wolf

Progressive Mecca, dude. Maybe he murdered a hundred people, but that doesn't mean he should be discomfited. It's like a parent sending a child to his room for a "time out" - alone with his stereo, television, computer, game systems, and cell phone.

Basic dichotomy of prison: Right thinks it's punishment, left feels it's separation to protect the public.

In Norway's defense, this is so atypical for their society that they never really perceived a need to address crimes like this. For their typical criminals, this system might even well work reasonably well.

Considering though that this guy admits to the atrocities but is pleading "Not guilty", I'm laughing at the comment that it's "unlikely" that this animal will be considered still a danger and have his sentence extended. Even Norway is never letting Breivik out.

 

[woolfe9999]

Progressive Mecca, dude. Maybe he murdered a hundred people, but that doesn't mean he should be discomfited. It's like a parent sending a child to his room for a "time out" - alone with his stereo, television, computer, game systems, and cell phone.

Basic dichotomy of prison: Right thinks it's punishment, left feels it's separation to protect the public.

In Norway's defense, this is so atypical for their society that they never really perceived a need to address crimes like this. For their typical criminals, this system might even well work reasonably well.

Considering though that this guy admits to the atrocities but is pleading "Not guilty", I'm laughing at the comment that it's "unlikely" that this animal will be considered still a danger and have his sentence extended. Even Norway is never letting Breivik out.

Yes I basically agree with this, and your assessment of how the right and left view criminal justice and imprisonment. The left's idea is that you don't want prison to be a place that hardens the criminal even more. As you point out, this probably works well for the typical class of criminal in Norway. But for this type of criminal, there is no redemption, no realistic possibility of successful re-integration into society because he is an incurable sociopath. This suggests that he needs to be permanently removed (or killed, if you support capital punishment), and that his confinement need not be too comfortable since he isn't getting out anyway and there is no concern about hardening him more than he already is, which is probably impossible in his case anyway.

I think Americans read stories like this and we have a hard time with it because our system is so different and to us this is a moral outrage. Even most US libs who oppose capital punishment are probably unsettled by this. I oppose capital punishment and believe that some liberal ideas about crime and punishment have merit, but I definitely find it disturbing. Some people are just not worth saving.

It's ironic that this guy is on a murderous crusade against the Norwegian left, and it is that very same ideology which is likely going to let him off with a cushy sentence.

 

[Infohawk]

OK, this is some seriously messed up shit:

http://www.slate.com/id/2300098/?gt1=38001

This is the jail the shooter may be sent to, complete with flat screen TV's and mini fridges in the inmate's "rooms", large windows to let in more sunlight, jogging trails and no iron bars. A country club, or maybe like a dormitory for spoiled, misbehaved rich kids.

/boggle

- wolf

I'm not expert on Norwegian prisons but a lot of people online are saying this is not where he's going to go and I don't see anything in the article that confirms he would actually go there. It sounds like they have tougher prisons and that this slate article is just an excuse to talk about the prison.

 

[woolfe9999]

I'm not expert on Norwegian prisons but a lot of people online are saying this is not where he's going to go and I don't see anything in the article that confirms he would actually go there. It sounds like they have tougher prisons and that this slate article is just an excuse to talk about the prison.

I certainly hope you're correct about this. I've read articles about Scandanavian prisons before that talk about how easy the time is compared to US prisons. Hopefully they do have tougher places to put people like this.

 

[werepossum]

Yes I basically agree with this, and your assessment of how the right and left view criminal justice and imprisonment. The left's idea is that you don't want prison to be a place that hardens the criminal even more. As you point out, this probably works well for the typical class of criminal in Norway. But for this type of criminal, there is no redemption, no realistic possibility of successful re-integration into society because he is an incurable sociopath. This suggests that he needs to be permanently removed (or killed, if you support capital punishment), and that his confinement need not be too comfortable since he isn't getting out anyway and there is no concern about hardening him more than he already is, which is probably impossible in his case anyway.

I think Americans read stories like this and we have a hard time with it because our system is so different and to us this is a moral outrage. Even most US libs who oppose capital punishment are probably unsettled by this. I oppose capital punishment and believe that some liberal ideas about crime and punishment have merit, but I definitely find it disturbing. Some people are just not worth saving.

It's ironic that this guy is on a murderous crusade against the Norwegian left, and it is that very same ideology which is likely going to let him off with a cushy sentence.

Agreed. Norway needs to make allowances for the occasional Breivik. And the USA needs to develop ways to identify those criminals who can be redeemed, and systems to do so. I'm in favor of harsh punishments - I think when someone gets out of prison he should shake himself and say "Damn, I ain't never goin' back there!" But far too often we turn minor criminals into hardened criminals.

I'd go so far though as to say there are few dissimilar pairs of systems that could not learn something useful from one another. There are no perfect systems.

 

[zinfamous]

OK, this is some seriously messed up shit:

http://www.slate.com/id/2300098/?gt1=38001

This is the jail the shooter may be sent to, complete with flat screen TV's and mini fridges in the inmate's "rooms", large windows to let in more sunlight, jogging trails and no iron bars. A country club, or maybe like a dormitory for spoiled, misbehaved rich kids.

/boggle

- wolf

"Hey, Look! This is where at terrorist mastermind MAY end up!" Hmmm, let's take some crazy absurd example from a country that we envy/despise for their progressive social practices, make some assumptions that this is representative of all such prisons, and create a "story" suggesting that this terrorist master mind is going to be living the rest of his life in posh comfort, because some super ultra progressives feel that it is proper. See! This is where progressives are taking this world!

rabble, rabble rablle! derka derk herp!

what a joke.

 

[woolfe9999]

"Hey, Look! This is where at terrorist mastermind MAY end up!" Hmmm, let's take some crazy absurd example from a country that we envy/despise for their progressive social practices, make some assumptions that this is representative of all such prisons, and create a "story" suggesting that this terrorist master mind is going to be living the rest of his life in posh comfort, because some super ultra progressives feel that it is proper. See! This is where progressives are taking this world!

rabble, rabble rablle! derka derk herp!

what a joke.

I'm not a conservative, do not hate progressives, and Slate is not a right wing publication. WTF does "derka derka herp" mean anyway? Grow up.

 

[zinfamous]

Why is it shallow to debate the true meaning of what a terrorist is? Or do you mean it's shallow to argue that in this thread?

mostly the second point.

But I don't see it much of a stretch for an individual who chooses to get one's message and goals known through means of instilling terror--this very much was terror--by attacking the institution of government and innocent civilians (the common targets of terrorists)-to be considered a terrorist.

The particularly ideology doesn't matter. the means with which one has access to, and the larger connections/institution with which one relates doesn't really matter.

To me, terrorism is a means to a goal. it is how you choose to establish your end. His absolute intent was to affect change by instilling terror. His little manifesto claimed that this was necessary.

 

[zinfamous]

I'm not a conservative, do not hate progressives, and Slate is not a right wing publication. WTF does "derka derka herp" mean anyway? Grow up.

i know slate is not right wing, but it's still an idiotic "article."

it takes a non-journalist bloggers approach of making up a story based on assumptions, trying to pass it off as news, or content.

it's the kind of claptrap that should be largely ignored as rabble-rousing chaff.

(and my comment was aimed at the article, not you)

 

[woolfe9999]

i know slate is not right wing, but it's still an idiotic "article."

it takes a non-journalist bloggers approach of making up a story based on assumptions, trying to pass it off as news, or content.

it's the kind of claptrap that should be largely ignored as rabble-rousing chaff.

(and my comment was aimed at the article, not you)

Yeah I suppose you're correct, though the article says he "may" end up there, and indeed he "may." This prison is apparently not meant as a cushy facility for non-hardened criminals, and they didn't pick an obscure institution as this is Norway's second largest prison according to Slate. I find it interesting that any justice system would put any serious, violent offenders in a facility with flat screens and mini-fridges in cells that look like dorm rooms. But like I said, that is my American sensibility and I'm sure many Europeans view it differently.

 

[senseamp]

Daaam, I want to go to Norwegian prison for a few weeks for some R&R. Seems like an all inclusive resort.

 

[Fern]

OK, this is some seriously messed up shit:

http://www.slate.com/id/2300098/?gt1=38001

This is the jail the shooter may be sent to, complete with flat screen TV's and mini fridges in the inmate's "rooms", large windows to let in more sunlight, jogging trails and no iron bars. A country club, or maybe like a dormitory for spoiled, misbehaved rich kids.

/boggle

- wolf

I've seen TV shows (Discovery channel?) on prisons in Europe. Norway's prisons for violent prisoners are like that in the article.

Even if he doesn't end up at that particular prison, the other ones are similar (unless the program was very misleading).

Norway's system seemed highly focused on rehabilitation and not stigmatizing prisoners. In the program I saw prisoners did not wear prison uniforms, but 'street clothes' and I don't think they're handcuffed as they go to their classes or group therapy etc.

IIRC, Norway prefers it's prisons to look like campuses, not prisons, and they shun any drab institutional appearence.

I might be mistaken (confusing the countries) but I also recall prisoners being allowed to order products etc. One guy showed an impressive collection of nice watches he kept in his cell.

Their prisons are not at all like ours. I think any expectation to the contrary is unfounded.

Fern

 

[zinfamous]

Yeah I suppose you're correct, though the article says he "may" end up there, and indeed he "may." This prison is apparently not meant as a cushy facility for non-hardened criminals, and they didn't pick an obscure institution as this is Norway's second largest prison according to Slate. I find it interesting that any justice system would put any serious, violent offenders in a facility with flat screens and mini-fridges in cells that look like dorm rooms. But like I said, that is my American sensibility and I'm sure many Europeans view it differently.

Norway is a preposterously wealthy country with a social system that essentially has no budget.

One of my GF's best friends worked in Norwegian social services department for ~2 years...maybe 10 years ago.

(and this is a true story). The regular complaints that came into the office was from some upper middle class dude who was depresseed/humiliated that his neighbor had a Mercedes while he only had a Saab. He wanted some cash so that he could upgrade to a Mercedes, thus improving his quality of life. And so...he would get paid to upgrade his car.

It sounds terribly odd and ridiculous to us. But one has to remember that the country really does have so much money that it doesn't know what to do. They already have the best education system in the world (from year to year, they tend to be top 2 or 3, I think), healthcare is excellent and paid-for, they don't have a preposterously unnecessary defense budget, so they have to do something with that money, i guess.

:\

 

[Broheim]

Norwegian government announced that they'll pay for all the funerals.

 

[obidamnkenobi]

I've seen TV shows (Discovery channel?) on prisons in Europe. Norway's prisons for violent prisoners are like that in the article.

Even if he doesn't end up at that particular prison, the other ones are similar (unless the program was very misleading).

Norway's system seemed highly focused on rehabilitation and not stigmatizing prisoners. In the program I saw prisoners did not wear prison uniforms, but 'street clothes' and I don't think they're handcuffed as they go to their classes or group therapy etc.

IIRC, Norway prefers it's prisons to look like campuses, not prisons, and they shun any drab institutional appearence.

I might be mistaken (confusing the countries) but I also recall prisoners being allowed to order products etc. One guy showed an impressive collection of nice watches he kept in his cell.

Their prisons are not at all like ours. I think any expectation to the contrary is unfounded.

Fern

This sounds pretty correct to me. The Norwegian prison system is difficult for Amricans to understand since they are used to the "vengance" based US system. It may seem like moral justice to want the criminal to have it as miserable as possible (and I often feel that way too), but research points to this only leading to more, tougher criminals and a higher re-incarceration rate.

Isolating criminals from society in harsh prisons only lead to people who are unable to function outside of the prison system, and will have a hard time reintegrating into society. And so you get career criminals. The public just want criminals locked up and forget that they will be release at some point. Yes prisons are designed to maintain a sense of being included in the outside world, not isolate the prisoners. Providing prisoners with some semblance of society while in jail may actually lead to a better society overall. Hard to imagine I know..

This might of course not ably very well to Breivik, who will probably never "repent", but then he'll just stay in jail for the rest of his life. Beating him every day may seem right for the victim's families, but won't make society better overall.

I'm from Norway, but I've never been to jail so I can't really comment beyond that My second cousin was (for speeding..), and he said it was pretty unpleasant, despite these niceties. It's still not a very friendly place, and has some bad people..

By the way I don't believe for a second the story that a guy got government money to buy a Mercedes. Getting any kind of money from the government (beyond child care subsidies, education etc) even in Scandinavia, you have to be pretty poor. They mostly take money from you..

 

[zinfamous]

I'm from Norway, but I've never been to jail so I can't really comment beyond that My second cousin was (for speeding..), and he said it was pretty unpleasant, despite these niceties. It's still not a very friendly place, and has some bad people..

whoa...what?

you mean, like, with a car, or with meth?

:hmm:

 

[obidamnkenobi]

whoa...what?

you mean, like, with a car, or with meth?

:hmm:

yeah, the former. Pretty strict traffic laws there (I live in the US now). Think he was going 150 km/hr in a 60 area or so and got 20 days in jail or something. At that point it's an offense, or something, dunno the details.

 

[zinfamous]

yeah, the former. Pretty strict traffic laws there (I live in the US now). Think he was going 150 km/hr in a 60 area or so and got 20 days in jail or something. At that point it's an offense, or something, dunno the details.

was it Norway where that guy was fined ~$250k not too long ago for speeding?

Apparently, he had been repeatedly blasting through a school zone in his Ferrari, and had several other moving violations, I think.

Something where the fine scales to the speed difference, and he somehow managed to hit $250k.

lol.