Explosion in central Oslo, Norwegian Primeminister's Office was hit.

[Gigantopithecus]

There are plenty of other places that economically similar to the middle-east that don't have this phenomenon.

Where else in the world do wealthy economies rely solely on the production and export of a single vital natural resource?

Where else in the world do a handful of unelected rulers control nearly all of the wealth?

Where else in the world are huge proportions of the population continuously underemployed and undereducated yet for the most part have access to modern communications infrastructure?

You can say Islam isn't the reason that Muslims are blowing themselves up but it's the one unique factor that would explain it.

How many American Muslims have committed acts of terrorism?

Again, I'm not making the argument that Islam is a religion of peace. I'm making the argument that socioeconomic conditions of the Middle East are far more important in contributing to "Islamic terrorism." Would Middle Easterners be blowing up Europe if Islam didn't exist? No, probably not. Would Middle Easterners be blowing up Europe if they lived under democratic governments and had the opportunities afforded by a developed, diversified economy? No, probably not - again, look at Indonesia, or Turkey.

So if you want to reduce terrorism, you can either support the elimination of Islam or you can support the economic development of the Middle East and its transition to democratic governments. Ask Hitler how trying to eliminate a religion worked out.

 

[PottedMeat]

local political crazy guy?

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/22/video-of-oslo-explosion-aftermath/

Later on Friday, a man dressed as a police officer opened fire at a summer camp for young members of the ruling Labour Party on the island of Utoya in the Oslo fjord, about 25 miles from the city, and killed at least nine people, according to the police.

Rune Håkonsen, who also works for NRK, reported on Twitter: “The assailant at Utøya wore a fake police uniform.” According to Mr. Håkonsen, the Norwegian news agency NTB reported late Friday that the police “do not think this is international terrorism.”

can't really do anything about crazy people

 

[OCGuy]

Where else in the world do a handful of unelected rulers control nearly all of the wealth?

.

So shouldnt they be mad at their own leaders for hording all of the gold and oil wealth? WTF do we have to do with it?

We shouldnt have to do anything to economically develop their countries. That is some wide-eyed-liberal college kid bullshit if I have ever heard it.

We send the middle east plenty of money in the form of oil revenue. If their leaders choose to not help out the public, we cant do squat about it.


On a side note, the reporting on this has been terrible.

 

[Infohawk]

Where else in the world do wealthy economies rely solely on the production and export of a single vital natural resource?

So if you want to reduce terrorism, you can either support the elimination of Islam or you can support the economic development of the Middle East and its transition to democratic governments. Ask Hitler how trying to eliminate a religion worked out.

Venezuela is just one example of a relatively poor oil-rich country that doesn't export terrorists. You mentioned Turkey but with Ataturk you've had governments specifically trying to suppress Islam, so that is largely a counter-example to your argument.

There's another path to dealing with Islam. Contain them like we contained the Soviet Union. They will change from within. We don't need to occupy their lands and we don't need to bend over backwards to make it seem like we love them. And if anything your allusion to Nazis is useful because it shows that an economically wealthy society can still be heinous. (We are probably going to learn the same thing with China but I hope not.)

 

[OCGuy]

Kudos to the Islamic leadership in Norway...jumping out ahead of it, even if it turns out to be home-grown:

"Muslim leaders in Norway swiftly condemned the attacks. “This is our homeland, this is my homeland; I condemn these attacks and the Islamic Council of Norway condemns these attacks, whoever is behind them,” said Mehtab Afsar, secretary general of the Islamic Council of Norway."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html?_r=2&hp

 

[Infohawk]

local political crazy guy?



can't really do anything about crazy people

There's definitely conflicting news out there. One story said that the bombing and shooting were linked. But then it doesn't make sense that an Islamic group claimed responsibility for the bombing... we'll see.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

And actually the leadership doesn't want to die. They recruit young and impressionable people to do the bombing/dieing for them. I don't care about assasinating the foot soldiers...I want the leaders taken out.

And we can see how effective playing wack-a-mole is - after all, terrorism stopped when Osama sprung a few extra holes in his head, right?

You are delusional if you think a withdrawal from Afghanistan and Iraq is going to stop this scourge that is Wahabbi Islam. (Although I fully support an immediate withdrawal).

I completely agree with you on this point. I've already forwarded how I think Islamic terrorism can be defeated.

I was against the war in Iraq from the beginning but I have no problem talking about Islamic apologists. Aren't you defending Islam against its critics? That's all it means.

I don't defend Islam more than any other religion. People have done things in the name of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. that are indefensible. I am criticizing the notion that Islam is the sole or even the most important factor that causes terrorism.

Until the rise of Islamic terrorism, homegrown domestic terrorists frequently blew up abortion clinics. Is Christianity responsible for those acts of terrorism?

 

[yllus]

Venezuela is just one example of a relatively poor oil-rich country that doesn't export terrorists.

BBC News - Colombian Farc rebels' links to Venezuela detailed

 

[SandEagle]

Kudos to the Islamic leadership in Norway...jumping out ahead of it, even if it turns out to be home-grown:

"Muslim leaders in Norway swiftly condemned the attacks. “This is our homeland, this is my homeland; I condemn these attacks and the Islamic Council of Norway condemns these attacks, whoever is behind them,” said Mehtab Afsar, secretary general of the Islamic Council of Norway."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html?_r=2&hp

did this kill your muslim-hating erection? im here all week

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Venezuela is just one example of a relatively poor oil-rich country that doesn't export terrorists.

Venezuela is a teeny tiny country that is an island in a sea of democracy, and has been pointed out, Venezuela exports terrorism.

You mentioned Turkey but with Ataturk you've had governments specifically trying to suppress Islam, so that is largely a counter-example to your argument.

They specifically try to suppress Islam because they recognize the economic importance of being seen as the bridge between Europe and the Middle East, and not really wholly one or the other. They don't want to be perceived as overly Muslim by Europeans.

There's another path to dealing with Islam. Contain them like we contained the Soviet Union.

What did the Soviet Union have that we needed? As long as the entire world is dependent upon cheap oil, and we find it cheaper to keep the Middle East's rulers in fabulous opulence than helping them diversify their economies, there will be Islamic terrorism.

 

[zinfamous]

We NEED more of these attacks? What the shit is wrong with you?

it's attitudes like that from idiots that somewhat legitimize the craziness behind people like truthers, who fully believe that terrorists acts are allowed, if only to inspire regular citizens to support unauthorized invasions such that their betters can profit.

does not surprise me coming from ProJo.

 

[Infohawk]

I don't defend Islam more than any other religion. People have done things in the name of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. that are indefensible. I am criticizing the notion that Islam is the sole or even the most important factor that causes terrorism.

Until the rise of Islamic terrorism, homegrown domestic terrorists frequently blew up abortion clinics. Is Christianity responsible for those acts of terrorism?

Frequently? Let's be honest here. Numbers matter. Just like yllus' example of a Venezuelan terrorist is just one case compared to a sea of Muslim terrorists. There have been relatively few abortion bombings.

And yes Christianity is to blame for the abortion bombings. It just so happens they're relatively uncommon and I don't see too many people complaining that it's due to economic hardships that they're blowing up abortion clinics.

 

[Jaskalas]

This is hardly the profile of a normal Muslim terrorist

Ideas are not held by a single race or ethnicity. There are also converts.

 

[zinfamous]

Frequently? Let's be honest here. Numbers matter. Just like yllus' example of a Venezuelan terrorist is just one case compared to a sea of Muslim terrorists. There have been relatively few abortion bombings.

And yes Christianity is to blame for the abortion bombings. It just so happens they're relatively uncommon and I don't see too many people complaining that it's due to economic hardships that they're blowing up abortion clinics.

develop an economy so those people can work and live their own lives and remove the warlords from power and you have no pool with which to recruit terrorists.

it is not Islam. It, like any other religion, is the scapegoat for what people have done in the name of "their god" or their faith.

fuck, desperation will lead many people to eat each other.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

So shouldnt they be mad at their own leaders for hording all of the gold and oil wealth? WTF do we have to do with it?

...Where'd the gold and oil wealth come from before it got into the hands of their rulers?

We shouldnt have to do anything to economically develop their countries. That is some wide-eyed-liberal college kid bullshit if I have ever heard it.

You've already made it clear that you like to dismiss opinions you don't like as "liberal college kid bullshit" - as if anyone who disagrees with you is out of touch with reality and too young to know any better. The last time you tried to pull that non-sense with me you ended up looking like a retard and fled the thread. I'll simply ask what knowledge and experiences lead you to think that the solution to the Islamic terrorist problem is to let the Middle East wither on the vine?

We send the middle east plenty of money in the form of oil revenue. If their leaders choose to not help out the public, we cant do squat about it.

Tell that to W and Obama, who've spent trillions of dollars doing squat about it.

I can certainly understand why you spend so much time on this forum. You're not very bright and you have a shitty, overly hostile attitude. You're here because not many people want to spend time with you in person.

 

[Phokus]

Kudos to the Islamic leadership in Norway...jumping out ahead of it, even if it turns out to be home-grown:

"Muslim leaders in Norway swiftly condemned the attacks. “This is our homeland, this is my homeland; I condemn these attacks and the Islamic Council of Norway condemns these attacks, whoever is behind them,” said Mehtab Afsar, secretary general of the Islamic Council of Norway."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html?_r=2&hp

Speaking of jumping out ahead, you and your douchebag conservative ilk were practically jerking off to killing Muslims and we don't even know all the facts yet. You're a disgusting bunch of shits.

 

[Infohawk]

develop an economy so those people can work and live their own lives and remove the warlords from power and you have no pool with which to recruit terrorists.

A developed economy didn't stop Timothy McVeigh and wealth didn't stop Osama Bin Laden. Sorry, but I think it's naive to think that economic poverty is what pushes these people. Listen to what they say. It's their ideology. I see no reason not to believe them. In fact, it only makes sense that they would be pushed to commit such acts because of ideology. After all, there are billions of poor people around the world who don't commit terrorist acts because of it.

 

[BuckNaked]

Image that supposedly 'may' show the gunman at the shooting. This link was posted in another forum.

***Warning: There are what appears to be victims in the image***

http://i51.tinypic.com/k2cwmw.jpg

 

[OCGuy]

...Where'd the gold and oil wealth come from before it got into the hands of their rulers?



You've already made it clear that you like to dismiss opinions you don't like as "liberal college kid bullshit" - as if anyone who disagrees with you is out of touch with reality and too young to know any better. The last time you tried to pull that non-sense with me you ended up looking like a retard and fled the thread. I'll simply ask what knowledge and experiences lead you to think that the solution to the Islamic terrorist problem is to let the Middle East wither on the vine?



Tell that to W and Obama, who've spent trillions of dollars doing squat about it.

I can certainly understand why you spend so much time on this forum. You're not very bright and you have a shitty, overly hostile attitude. You're here because not many people want to spend time with you in person.

None of what you said has anything to do with this. All of your posts have an overtone that we (the West, USA imparticular) cause Islamic terrorism. Like we are a scantily clad female who gets raped.

You might not come out and say "Well, she/we deserved it", but we can read between the lines. And it is sick either way.

As people have pointed out in this thread, there are plenty of poor people who arent killing others. And Osama was far from poor. That argument does not hold water.

If you think we need to help every impoverished country or risk attack, you are in the minority, thankfully.

The last part is just a personal attack that I had figured you were above. I guess not.

 

[Mr. President]

From the sounds of it, it's starting to look like a right-wing extremist was responsible. The Norwegian Labor Party basically translates to 'social democrats' (who are generally more supportive of immigrants) and it was almost certainly a targeted strike against them.

 

[woolfe9999]

From the sounds of it, it's starting to look like a right-wing extremist was responsible. The Norwegian Labor Party basically translates to 'social democrats' (who are generally more supportive of immigrants) and it was almost certainly a targeted strike against them.

Yeah it's starting to look that way. I was already wondering when it turned out the youth center was a labor party organization.

 

[OCGuy]

Speaking of jumping out ahead, you and your douchebag conservative ilk were practically jerking off to killing fundamentalist Muslims and we don't even know all the facts yet. You're a disgusting bunch of shits.

Fixed that for you.

And yes, I can't say I dont enjoy some gun-cam footage of a Jihadi trying to run away from some cannon fire. But then again, you know that people aren't talking about all muslims, only the violent fundis.

But it isnt as cool to acknowledge that as it is to just assume everyone who hates jihadis hates every Muslim.


And I was commenting on a Jihadi group taking credit for the bombing. They have since recanted, but this was a couple hours ago.

 

[spidey07]

Image that supposedly 'may' show the gunman at the shooting. This link was posted in another forum.

***Warning: There are what appears to be victims in the image***

http://i51.tinypic.com/k2cwmw.jpg

I saw that. Dude in lower left is begging for his life and the guy in upper right is already gone.

 

[Gintaras]

We are, as is fortunate, openly supporting to right of free speech and we will keep on doing so, no matter what.

The fundamentalists must be eradicated, but you can't do this at gunpoint. War and suffering will only create more Talibans and more young men ready to be brainwashed and blow themselves up, hiding behind perverted religious beliefs.

Says one, hiding behind perverted beliefs about "democracy", "freedom", "free speech"?
Free speech really does exist, in mental institution, there you can say anything you want...

 

[Craig234]

can't really do anything about crazy people