F-22 is suck

SONYFX

Senior member
May 14, 2003
403
0
0
GAO Asks Pentagon to Justify Fighter Jet

Report Cites Cost, Delays on F/A-22

By Greg Schneider
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 16, 2004; Page E12


The General Accounting Office yesterday called on the Pentagon to do a better job of justifying why it needs the F/A-22 fighter plane, a Lockheed Martin-built Air Force program that the agency said continues to suffer from delays and escalating costs.



Coming in a climate when tight budgets and debate over future military needs has already led to the cancellation of one major weapons program, the Comanche helicopter, the GAO report renewed calls from opponents for an end to the F/A-22, which has already cost some $40 billion and could cost another $40 billion to complete.

"Congress needs to act swiftly and eliminate this platinum-plated boondoggle," Keith Ashdown of Taxpayers for Common Sense said in a news release.

A spokesman for Lockheed Martin Corp.'s factory in Marietta, Ga., that builds the plane said many of the problems identified in the GAO report have been addressed. "Overall the program is healthy. It's technically sound, and it remains the Air Force's highest modernization priority," spokesman Greg Caires said.

The GAO, which is the investigative arm of Congress, said the program's costs have climbed so much that the Air Force won't be able to buy as many of the radar-evading fighter planes as it wants. The service plans to buy 277 planes but could afford only 218 at current costs, the report said.

It said the per-plane price of the F/A-22, not counting the cost of development, has risen to $153 million from the $69 million envisioned by the Air Force when the program began in the late 1980s. The plane's technology is still being developed even though the Pentagon has already ordered 52 planes -- with preliminary orders for 22 more. Development costs have risen as well -- by 127 percent, the report said.

What's more, the Air Force plans to add extra air-to-ground missions to a plane designed for air-to-air combat, which could push costs up another $8 billion or more, the report said.

The GAO said it was concerned that glitches have caused so many delays that the Air Force will not have enough time to complete testing before it is scheduled to decide whether to start full-scale production of the plane in December.

For instance, the agency said the Air Force originally wanted to see the plane's sophisticated avionics, or electronics gear, achieve 20 hours of uninterrupted flying time without a software failure. When the plane couldn't achieve that, the Air Force changed its goal to flying five hours without a software failure. As of January, the plane could average no better than 2.7 hours.

In addition, the plane's microprocessor is an obsolete model no longer manufactured. The Air Force plans to switch to a newer type, including one created for the upgraded F-16 fighter jet, a type of plane far older than the F-22 but also built by Lockheed Martin.

The GAO also found that the F/A-22's computer-based maintenance system has suffered glitches that cause the plane to miss a significant amount of test-flying time. The Air Force had hoped to get the plane to fly nearly two hours between maintenance events by this point in the program, but has been unable to do better than an average of 30 minutes, the report said.

Caires said many of those problems have eased since January, when the GAO last investigated. The avionics gear is close to flying five hours between failures, he said. While the microprocessors are outmoded, they are ample for current mission requirements, and the plane has plenty of room to add computer gear, he said.


The maintenance system also is improving with use, "learning" how to adjust for real-world experience versus engineering expectations, Caires said.

He said the company was "willing to support" any effort by the Pentagon to look more closely at the costs and benefits of the program, as suggested by the GAO. The Defense Department, in a written response to the GAO report, said it was giving the program a more thorough review as part of the president's next budget submission to Congress.
 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,696
0
76
Talk about a bloated defense budget, I mean seriously with all our firepower... we have trouble killing some backwater camel jockeys in the mountains.

Does anyone else think 600 billion dollar defense spending, and 200 billion dollar dumped welfare state of Iraq isn't getting any results?


 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: charrison
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.

For $153M, you can get 5 Su-30MKI's, which will more than match a singe F-22.
Knowing some people who work at LMCO, the company is very wasteful, and a lot of people get paid to do little or no work.

 

Loralon

Member
Oct 10, 1999
132
0
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: charrison
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.

For $153M, you can get 5 Su-30MKI's, which will more than match a singe F-22.
Knowing some people who work at LMCO, the company is very wasteful, and a lot of people get paid to do little or no work.

So should we buy Su-30s instead?
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: Loralon
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: charrison
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.

For $153M, you can get 5 Su-30MKI's, which will more than match a singe F-22.
Knowing some people who work at LMCO, the company is very wasteful, and a lot of people get paid to do little or no work.

So should we buy Su-30s instead?

Are they stealthy? Can they cruise at Mach 1 without afterburners? We also need to train more pilots if we buy Su-30s instead, I wonder if we can outsource to India...
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: Loralon
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: charrison
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.

For $153M, you can get 5 Su-30MKI's, which will more than match a singe F-22.
Knowing some people who work at LMCO, the company is very wasteful, and a lot of people get paid to do little or no work.

So should we buy Su-30s instead?

It would be a better use of taxpayer money.
Won't happen of course, but it should be obvious to anyone that LMCO is taking the US taxpayer to the cleaners.
153M per fighter plane is ridiculous. Also what is the need for such a plane? How does it fit in with missions that the USAF executes now.
Seems to me we need to invest in unmanned and ground attack aircraft instead of overpriced air superiority fighters modified for ground attack roles.

You do know that the JSF STOVL system is borrowed from a russian plane Yak 141
http://www.russian.ee/~star/air/russia/jak-141.html
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Loralon
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: charrison
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.

For $153M, you can get 5 Su-30MKI's, which will more than match a singe F-22.
Knowing some people who work at LMCO, the company is very wasteful, and a lot of people get paid to do little or no work.

So should we buy Su-30s instead?

Are they stealthy? Can they cruise at Mach 1 without afterburners? We also need to train more pilots if we buy Su-30s instead, I wonder if we can outsource to India...

They are not stealthy. But they have maneuverability advantages. I am not saying F-22 isn't better than Su-30, but it's not 5x better, but is 5x more expensive, and it's not even here yet.
 

SONYFX

Senior member
May 14, 2003
403
0
0
JSF is suck too.

-------------------------------

JSF's first flight pushed back

By Bob Cox

Star-Telegram Staff Writer


The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter won't make its first flight in 2005 after all, Pentagon and Lockheed Martin officials now concede, and a major rewrite of the program's timetable may be announced soon.

Months of work have failed to trim hundreds of pounds of unwanted pounds from the simplest of the three different F-35 versions. So Pentagon officials have decided more time is needed to solve the design challenges.


Lockheed spokesman John Kent confirmed Monday that the first flight of the F-35, which was to have occurred late in 2005, will not happen before spring 2006.


"A lot of that is the weight problems we're working with," Kent said.


When the team of Lockheed, Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems was awarded the $19 billion award to develop the F-35 in October 2001, Pentagon weapons czar E.C. "Pete" Aldridge expressed confidence first flight would occur by late 2005.


But the teams of engineers trying to design a family of aircraft to carry out three very different missions have found the task challenging.


For nearly a year, Lockheed and its partners have been struggling to trim the weight of the aircraft to desired levels. The price of having a too-heavy aircraft is paid in terms of reduced maneuverability, shorter range and reduced payload.


All of which means the aircraft can't perform combat missions as well as expected.


First flight isn't the only important milestone being delayed. A critical design review scheduled for April, which was expected to result in approval of the majority of the aircraft's design work and decisions to begin building more parts and components, has been pushed back until spring 2005.


Instead of go-ahead decisions, F-35 program spokeswoman Kathy Crawford said, there will be review to focus on what else can be done to reduce aircraft weight.


The development delays mean fewer parts for prototype aircraft have been released for manufacturing, both in house or by subcontractors, than originally planned, Kent said. "We're scrutinizing parts in more detail than before" looking for weight savings.


More than 6,000 engineers and other technicians are employed by the three companies, and key subcontractors, performing the design work. About 3,400 of those are working in Fort Worth.


The Pentagon has said it expects to buy some 2,600 F-35s over the next two decades and many foreign countries are expected to order versions of the aircraft to replace existing fighters. Britain has already committed to buy at least 150.


Analysts say the JSF program still has solid support, both within the program and politically, and is in no grave danger of being cancelled. But schedule delays drive up the price of the program.


In January, the Pentagon's budget office delayed plans to buy the first F-35s for one year and cut planned purchases for several years afterwards to save $5 billion. The money was plugged into the development effort, which officials have said is now about $7.5 billion over its original $33 billion budget.


Air Force Gen. Jack Hudson, the program director, is meeting with leaders of the Air Force, Navy and Marines, and senior Pentagon officials, briefing them on the issues and discussing alternative plans, Crawford said.


Several options for restructuring the program are being considered, Crawford said, including focusing on the Air Force's version of the F-35 first and putting off the Marine version, the most difficult, until later.


Despite the lingering weight issues, Crawford said F-35 program officials believe good progress has been made on the design "and the issues we have are not insurmountable."


Engineers now estimate the Air Force version, the farthest along in the design process and the simplest to produce, is about 8 percent above its desired weight of 29,000 pounds, according to Lockheed spokesman Kent.


The other two versions are similarly overweight. The added weight means the short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing version (STOVL) for the Marines, if it were built today, might not be able to fly as far as desired with a full load of fuel and weapons, according to `Inside the Air Force', a defense newsletter.


"The main problem with the F-35 is that it's not a fighter, it's three fighters," said Loren Thompson, a defense analyst with the Lexington Institute. "What you have here is an accumulation of small issues" that are posing a greater than expected challenge.


Military managers are wisely taking a cautious approach, Thompson said, and trying to solve problems now, rather than promise they'll be resolved in the future.


"They've seen what can happen to a program like Comanche when you push a program along and 20 years later you still don't have an operational aircraft," Thompson said, referring to the troubled helicopter program the Army has decided to cancel.


Former chief Pentagon weapons tester Phil Coyle said he would question the wisdom of delaying work on the STOVL version of the aircraft, because that's where the biggest challenges have to be overcome.


In addition, Coyle said, the Marines have the biggest need for a new aircraft so it would make sense to get that one in production first.


Air Force officials have recently said they may also consider buying STOVL F-35s to perform close air support missions for ground forces.


The three versions of the F-35 will share many common components, but each will have major structural and system changes suited for their specific mission.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Cox, (817) 390-7723 rcox@star-telegram.com
 

amok

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,342
0
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: Loralon
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: charrison
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.

For $153M, you can get 5 Su-30MKI's, which will more than match a singe F-22.
Knowing some people who work at LMCO, the company is very wasteful, and a lot of people get paid to do little or no work.

So should we buy Su-30s instead?

It would be a better use of taxpayer money.
Won't happen of course, but it should be obvious to anyone that LMCO is taking the US taxpayer to the cleaners.
153M per fighter plane is ridiculous. Also what is the need for such a plane? How does it fit in with missions that the USAF executes now.
Seems to me we need to invest in unmanned and ground attack aircraft instead of overpriced air superiority fighters modified for ground attack roles.

You do know that the JSF STOVL system is borrowed from a russian plane Yak 141
http://www.russian.ee/~star/air/russia/jak-141.html

I agree with you in large part here. The only air force in the world that is close to a match for ours belongs to the Russians, and last time I checked we are friends now. The F-22 project could be shelved for the time being, and funds diverted to development of craft that better reflects our current military needs. I'm not saying we should abandon air superiority research and testing. Anything is possible, and a need for such planes may come about. However, research and testing, and buying $30B+ worth of planes are two entirely different things.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: Loralon
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: charrison
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.

For $153M, you can get 5 Su-30MKI's, which will more than match a singe F-22.
Knowing some people who work at LMCO, the company is very wasteful, and a lot of people get paid to do little or no work.

So should we buy Su-30s instead?

It would be a better use of taxpayer money.
Won't happen of course, but it should be obvious to anyone that LMCO is taking the US taxpayer to the cleaners.
153M per fighter plane is ridiculous. Also what is the need for such a plane? How does it fit in with missions that the USAF executes now.
Seems to me we need to invest in unmanned and ground attack aircraft instead of overpriced air superiority fighters modified for ground attack roles.

You do know that the JSF STOVL system is borrowed from a russian plane Yak 141
http://www.russian.ee/~star/air/russia/jak-141.html

The upfront cost is high, but it will require fewer planes and manpower down the road to use these. This could possibly save money long term.....
 

DashRiprock

Member
Aug 31, 2001
166
0
76
It's not the Russians we need to look out for...

The Chinese Air Force, known as the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), has become the largest air force in Asia and the third largest in the world, with a total active strength of 400,000 personnel, controlling nearly 4,500 combat and support aircraft, over 1,000 surface-to-air missile systems and few thousand anti-aircraft artillery.

Today, the PLAAF is still primarily a defensive force, but, through the acquisition of systems with longer ranges and more lethal bombs and missiles, is moving gradually toward having an offensive capability. The PLA Air Force aims at the capability of waging high-level long-distance combat, and is steadily towards the capability of conducting joint operations with ground and naval forces.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Thats hard to beleive that the f-22 could only go 2.7 hours without a software failure. I work with a guy that tested software for the f-18 before he came to work where I am now. Just to change a line of code required days of testing. Maybe this was all outsourced.

Even with the strength of the Chinese military, with the planes right now I think we could do okay against any adversary. They perform very well and can be brought up to the 21st century with avionics upgrades. Much cheaper than developing a whole new fighter. Unfortunately it takes maybe a decade to go from concept to operational. So we have to think ahead as to what the future will bring.

The Army was wise enough to end the comanche program (although after spending a few billion to many). No need to have a 15 million+ dollar helicopter thats good at blowing up tanks when other platforms do it better and cheaper.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,232
5,807
126
Originally posted by: rudder
Thats hard to beleive that the f-22 could only go 2.7 hours without a software failure. I work with a guy that tested software for the f-18 before he came to work where I am now. Just to change a line of code required days of testing. Maybe this was all outsourced.

Even with the strength of the Chinese military, with the planes right now I think we could do okay against any adversary. They perform very well and can be brought up to the 21st century with avionics upgrades. Much cheaper than developing a whole new fighter. Unfortunately it takes maybe a decade to go from concept to operational. So we have to think ahead as to what the future will bring.

The Army was wise enough to end the comanche program (although after spending a few billion to many). No need to have a 15 million+ dollar helicopter thats good at blowing up tanks when other platforms do it better and cheaper.

Probably using Win95.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
bah, they always complain about new planes this way. bugs just need to be worked out. look at all our other military vehicles, they get useful in later revisions. b2 bomber? that was supposedly a big dud, now it works ok with smart weaps and stuff
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: rudder
Thats hard to beleive that the f-22 could only go 2.7 hours without a software failure. I work with a guy that tested software for the f-18 before he came to work where I am now. Just to change a line of code required days of testing. Maybe this was all outsourced.

Even with the strength of the Chinese military, with the planes right now I think we could do okay against any adversary. They perform very well and can be brought up to the 21st century with avionics upgrades. Much cheaper than developing a whole new fighter. Unfortunately it takes maybe a decade to go from concept to operational. So we have to think ahead as to what the future will bring.

The Army was wise enough to end the comanche program (although after spending a few billion to many). No need to have a 15 million+ dollar helicopter thats good at blowing up tanks when other platforms do it better and cheaper.

Part of the problem with S/w testing is that the testing is done in a controlled environment. when it is run on the real H/W under operating conditions, the H/W acts up.

The S/W development procedures have a design flaw that either could not be tested or not setup to catch problems generated from the H/W.
H/W engineers claim that the information and equipment will work properly. S/W builds based on what the guidelines are, never putting a lot of effort into handling unachievable/impossible errors.
Those are the ones that bite you.

 

Gravity

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2003
5,685
0
0
Um, can anything match our current fighters or the training of our current pilots?
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Loralon
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: charrison
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.

For $153M, you can get 5 Su-30MKI's, which will more than match a singe F-22.
Knowing some people who work at LMCO, the company is very wasteful, and a lot of people get paid to do little or no work.

So should we buy Su-30s instead?

Are they stealthy? Can they cruise at Mach 1 without afterburners? We also need to train more pilots if we buy Su-30s instead, I wonder if we can outsource to India...

They are not stealthy. But they have maneuverability advantages. I am not saying F-22 isn't better than Su-30, but it's not 5x better, but is 5x more expensive, and it's not even here yet.

Can 5 SU-30s really take down a single F-22? What about the stealth feature, wouldn't the F-22 see the 5 SU-30s before they see him? And he can just launch AMRAAMS and run away?
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Politics, F-22 in Texas & in Georgia, pushed to the hilt by the GOP in their territory.
Same with the F-35 (JSF)
The aircraft that actually won in the competition flyoff was the F23 from McDonnall Douglas,
but politics of that day placed the win in Georgia as the Nunn & Gingrich connection was
a bigger factor then putting it into Missouri with the Gebhardt.

In the JSF bidding, the McDonnell Douglas entry was 'Premptively' eliminated, since there
was a defense industry lawsuit that had been won by McDonnel Douglas over the illegal
termination of the A-12 by Cheney under Reagan/Bush-1. The McDonnel Douglas design
was discarded before Boeing and Lockheed were selected to move onto phase 2 of development.

The Lockheed entry did in fact outperforn the Boeing entry, as Lockheed bet the farm on a new
lift fan mechenism that had not been successful before, but they made it work for the 'Fly-Off'.
Boeing, which had not made a fighter since a failed design from back in 1939
(Which we gave to Russia just to get it out of our inventory) did nothing more that attrempt to
wrap a new skin and package around the AV-8B Harrier Jump Jet - 25 year old technology that
McDonnell Douglas (Which Boieng had bought) was building under liscense for the Marines.
Nothing new - and it didn't even perform to spec.

In retrospect, the JSF design from McDonnell Douglas was superior to either of the competitors
submittal, but between punishment for the previous A-10 program lawsuit win, coupled with Bush
in the Whitehouse, over rode putting the contract into the hands of the best designer/Builder.

After the elimination of the McDonnel Douglas entry in the primary phase, it was a foregone
conclusion throughout the industry that the JSF would be awarded to Lockheed in Texas.
Signed, sealed, and delivered. Oh yeah - by the way, there were terminations and contract
cancellations of many other contracts that were out to McDonnel Douglas still in work at the
time that were politically driven by the A-12 lawsuit win. AV-8B Harrier terminated, F-15 ended,
F/A-18 C & D models terminated (replaced with a low rate F/A-18 E & F derivative) & T-45 Hawk
a trainer was terminated. the C-17 was allowed to finish, and finally got a follow on extention.

Cheney's wife was on the Lockheed Board of Directors back then, yes she did resign, just like
Dick did with Haliburton when he became Vice President, still running, just not seen there.

Perhaps the smarttest thing to do today would to revive the F-15 line and use the engine technology
that is designed for the F-22 to bring that airframe up to date. It has a flawless combat history.
F-15 has NEVER suffered a loss to any other combat aircraft - a perfect kill ratio.
You can get 3 new F-15 for the price of a single F-22, and it is a proven performance vehicle.

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Perhaps the smarttest thing to do today would to revive the F-15 line and use the engine technology
that is designed for the F-22 to bring that airframe up to date. It has a flawless combat history.
F-15 has NEVER suffered a loss to any other combat aircraft - a perfect kill ratio.
You can get 3 new F-15 for the price of a single F-22, and it is a proven performance vehicle.




Trying to get me pulled back into active duty?:Q

The Eagle was a dream to fly in and it was fun taking on F4's and Mirages during training exercises. :evil:
Never had a chance to eat a Tomcat though.
 
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