F22/35/16 vs. MiG's SU's and other flying crap - Updated Plane Thread

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lizium

Senior member
Jul 17, 2002
285
0
0
Well, lets not get into the whole "if they would have never given/sold this or that, this would never happen". Remember that it was also some "dumb" Russian scientist (he was executed in the 80's i believe) who sold the formula for rocket fuel to US which is still used today, so who knows, maybe we wouldnt have any Space Shuttles if it wasnt for Russians.

I agree totaly, Russia doesnt have the funds to upkeep a fleet of 100's of Su-47's, but they will have a few dozens if not more, and i dont think they are foolish enough to sell a large quantity to China...
 

Desslok

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2001
3,780
11
81
Originally posted by: lizium
Well, lets not get into the whole "if they would have never given/sold this or that, this would never happen". Remember that it was also some "dumb" Russian scientist (he was executed in the 80's i believe) who sold the formula for rocket fuel to US which is still used today, so who knows, maybe we wouldnt have any Space Shuttles if it wasnt for Russians. I agree totaly, Russia doesnt have the funds to upkeep a fleet of 100's of Su-47's, but they will have a few dozens if not more, and i dont think they are foolish enough to sell a large quantity to China...

What do you mean " not foolish enough to sell them in large quantities"? The Chinese will either buy a couple and reverse engineer them or buy the rights like they have done on all the other aircraft models they have in service.

 

Nefrodite

Banned
Feb 15, 2001
7,931
0
0
Originally posted by: RanDum72
As for the ceiling, the 'official' ceiling of the SR-71 is 85,000 but a lot of people know it can fly much higher than that.

What is with you? I'm not arguing that the other aircraft is 'superior' than the other. I'm merely staing a fact that the Mig-25 can fly higher than the SR-71, even for short periods. I also stated the fact that the Mig-25 is almost as fast as the SR-71. The published 'specs' of Soviet aircraft are not cast in stone and probably the SR-71 as well. But the fact remains that the Mig-25 has officially reached almost 124,000 feet and almost 123,000 ft with a 2000 kg payload, and the SR-71 has not, not even close.



the 25 was the foxbat right? i forget didn't it burn out its engines if it did go that fast?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: RanDum72
As for the ceiling, the 'official' ceiling of the SR-71 is 85,000 but a lot of people know it can fly much higher than that.

What is with you? I'm not arguing that the other aircraft is 'superior' than the other. I'm merely staing a fact that the Mig-25 can fly higher than the SR-71, even for short periods. I also stated the fact that the Mig-25 is almost as fast as the SR-71. The published 'specs' of Soviet aircraft are not cast in stone and probably the SR-71 as well. But the fact remains that the Mig-25 has officially reached almost 124,000 feet and almost 123,000 ft with a 2000 kg payload, and the SR-71 has not, not even close.

I am merely stating that the mig-25 has flown higher than the published ceiling of the SR-71, not necessarly higher than what the SR-71 could do. Above 100k feet, it is really a moot point. There is not enough control to do anything other than follow the parabolic ballistic path until you get back into denser atmosphere.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Nefrodite
Originally posted by: RanDum72
As for the ceiling, the 'official' ceiling of the SR-71 is 85,000 but a lot of people know it can fly much higher than that.

What is with you? I'm not arguing that the other aircraft is 'superior' than the other. I'm merely staing a fact that the Mig-25 can fly higher than the SR-71, even for short periods. I also stated the fact that the Mig-25 is almost as fast as the SR-71. The published 'specs' of Soviet aircraft are not cast in stone and probably the SR-71 as well. But the fact remains that the Mig-25 has officially reached almost 124,000 feet and almost 123,000 ft with a 2000 kg payload, and the SR-71 has not, not even close.



the 25 was the foxbat right? i forget didn't it burn out its engines if it did go that fast?

That is correct.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: lizium
I did read the article, and a couple of other ones. The MiG 144 project has been scrapped in favor of Su-47.

We cant afford the 144, so we will build something even more expensive!
 

lizium

Senior member
Jul 17, 2002
285
0
0
Russians have sold plenty (this goes into thousands) of MiG's in the past, but they still had the most, along with all the rights. So i dont think the Su-47 is purely for China.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: lizium
Russians have sold plenty (this goes into thousands) of MiG's in the past, but they still had the most, along with all the rights. So i dont think the Su-47 is purely for China.

Tell me again when/if this will reach a production stage?
 

Desslok

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2001
3,780
11
81
In the Soviet Union? Probably never unless they go back to the old ways. They will probably sell the plans to the highest bidder who will most likely be China. North Korea is to poor to feed its own people.
 

Ben50

Senior member
Apr 29, 2001
421
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison

The cost is worth the advantage. It is a cat and mouse game, we improve our stealth tech, and they have to improve their detection tech. This is not a new game.

You are going to really flip when you hear they are wanting to incorperate stealth features into the next gen carriers. How do you hide something that is over a 1000 feet long

Actually any navy ship is relatively easy to mask from radar because it is extremely low to the ground. The curve of the earth will block any radar from picking up a ship so you have to be either high above the earth or relatively close to acquire a ship on radar.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,930
261
126
You have to realize that the X-45 technology will more resemble the current U.S. Navy theories with ships than any previous air system designs. The X-45's are going to be in swarms for mainly one reason - their low cost in comparison to fighters.

Each drone will not be emitting a radar signal, but rather they'll use a combination of passive and active participants to build a network of coverage to supplement airborne and ground-based radar detectors. Lets say they have a dozen on combat station, only two or three will fly with their radar emitting. The rest will be on silent service duty where stealth will be emphasized. The actual missile launches will come from the silent service type of units whereas the enemy will likely have no idea before launch where those units were at. The surprise factor will increase the effectiveness of the force, just as the USN currently boosts the effectiveness of its ships with the same strategy.

I'm willing to be that the drones will fly some sort of scientifically managed pattern to maximize their coverage and possible launch points during interception, too. A human-piloted vehicle would literally be flying into a hornet's nest when they try to break through the patrol of stelath drone interceptors.
 

lizium

Senior member
Jul 17, 2002
285
0
0
Qestion for those who might now... According to this the Russian AA-9 Amos ATA Missile is the fastest to date, at mach 4.5. Now, if planes like the Blackbird and the MiG 25/31 can reach speeds of Mach 6+ cant they just outrun the fastest ATA missiles? If they detect them of course...
 

Desslok

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2001
3,780
11
81
The Soviet have tried and tired to knock down a Blackbird and probably the Auroa too. Even with a reported range of 80 nauctical miles all the pilot has to do is push the throttles up and the missle will run out of fuel before it can get to the target.
 

lizium

Senior member
Jul 17, 2002
285
0
0
Thats what i though too, makes scense...

But the B-2 Spirit is in trouble since it can only do Mach 1, if detected that is
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
The Mig-25 radar is so powerful that it's known for killing rabbits when being tested on the ground
Hahaha, the Foxhound is the Mig-31, the Firefox was a fictional Russian aircraft in a Clint Eastwood movie. The movie was called "Firefox", I believed. A very entertaining moving if not very accurate
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,930
261
126
When you try to predict the energy it requires to propel a missile 80nm then you have to plan for a 3-dimensional flight path that evolves thrust from the motor and actual lift from the missile body, two design limits for the missiles size and shape. Too much lift and the missile requires more thrust. Too little thrust and the missile falls well short of the mark. More thrust requires either more volatile fuel or more quantity of fuel, both paths requiring substantial boosts in the missile weight in size.

The design could be launched at a higher speed to boost its energy without requiring more fuel or energy, but that puts new constraints on other parts of the plane for tracking and whatnot. One interesting note about AMRAAM is its reported 50% boost in range when used by the F-22 in supercruise flight due to its higher launch velocity. As a side note, the F-22 will likely roam at a combat ceiling far in excess of current fighters which will only add to its survivability.

Larger missiles are less manueverable and require either a larger sensor to track its target or a preprogrammed flight path within the vicinity of the target. (The AMRAAM uses inertial guidance with periodic flight corrections from a datalink.) You are pretty well confined to active radar homing seekers for the missile as infrared and post-optical sensors would become far too stressed in even only 30nm of flight to be of any usefulness at the effective range of a 80nm missile. The more command guidance from the launch aircraft the more vulnerable the missiles accuracy if the launch aircraft is interupted - such as by a counter threat. (One of the reasons the Sparrow missile had a 10% chance of kills in its early life was precisely due to the pilots unable to maintain missile lock in a high threat environment.) Modern USAF and USN systems do not require the launch aircraft to remain locked on the missile, rather the missile is commanded by a vast system wide datalink. You don't want to rely too much on external command because what happens when you don't have GCI or AWAC information in the combat zone?? Plain and simple you lose almost any chance of survival!

The reason the SR-71 was never officially shot down has more to do with politics than with actual ability of the Russians or Chinese to down them. I don't know where you get the idea that a plane can survive Mach 6+ flight in anything but a one-way trip to hell, its hard to say. The truth is the SR-71 was too vulnerable to SAM technology by the mid-1980's to operate them over several Third World countries, let alone the Soviet Union or China! (Even more laughable is your assertion that they merely push the throttle up... ROFL! Too funny.) The CIA and USAF lost a fair share of them to probable unfreindly fire, although some were too mishaps. You'd never expect to have the USAF admit that their pride and joy was vulnerable to the evil empire, would you!?! Then again the CIA would never admit they even operated them...

I've seen the B-2 in real flight. As soon as it takes off you have less than a minute of visibility. The pilot makes a series of quarter-turns every five to six seconds, on his way to his cruising altitude, and with each jink it becomes increasingly difficult to maintain eye contact. And this is well under 10,000 feet in broad daylight! The truth is that the B-2 is one nimble and powerful machine for being only "subsonic"!
 

Desslok

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2001
3,780
11
81
MadRat show me an article that says we lost an SR-71 to enemy fire. You think the Air Force could keep the loss of an SR-71 secret? We NEVER lost a SR-71to enemy fire. IF this even happened don't you think the country that got a 71 would go public? I think so a chance to show up the US and show that they got the plane that couldn't be touched. So before you are so fast to laugh you might want to be able to back up your points. If a 71 pilot saw that he was being painted by radar he would make a minor course correction and with such high speeds that would amount to thousands of miles very quickly.

I remember reading an interview with Kelly Johnson and he said "...Not one SR-71 has ever been shot down and well over a 1000 SAM's have been launched trying to.."

So you are saying Kelly Johson who is quite possible one of themost brilliant aerospace enginneers ever is lying?

 

lizium

Senior member
Jul 17, 2002
285
0
0
Well, i dont see why something like the Blackbird cant outrun a live missile. Maybe its not as easy as "a push of the throttle button" as AMDTechGeek has stated, but i would think this is possible... I am not saying that Mach 5+ speeds are a pleasant ride, but when you got a 1000lb flying kill machine on your tail, you take your chances... The Blackbird still uses afterburners which tent to be VERY hot, so i dont know how often pilots have actually done this.
 

Desslok

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2001
3,780
11
81
No I do not think the airframe could handle that stress. From all that I have read on the 71 the top speed is said to be 3.2 mach, granted they probably sandbagged that number so who knows what the actually top speed is.
 

lizium

Senior member
Jul 17, 2002
285
0
0
Well, if Aurora is real (which we dont know) it could certanly reach mach 5 speeds with ease, since the top speed is rumored to be Mach 6.0+.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: AMDTechGeek
No I do not think the airframe could handle that stress. From all that I have read on the 71 the top speed is said to be 3.2 mach, granted they probably sandbagged that number so who knows what the actually top speed is.

Apparently NASA took a sr-71 to mach 3.6 for a brief period of time. The airframe is probably at its limits at that speed. But the general public may not ever know.
 

Desslok

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2001
3,780
11
81
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: AMDTechGeek No I do not think the airframe could handle that stress. From all that I have read on the 71 the top speed is said to be 3.2 mach, granted they probably sandbagged that number so who knows what the actually top speed is.
Apparently NASA took a sr-71 to mach 3.6 for a brief period of time. The airframe is probably at its limits at that speed. But the general public may not ever know.

I also found out that NASA helped test the IDRIDIUM(sp) system by using one of their 71's to carry the anntena's aloft to find the best design before they launched. To bad the company folded faster than a dot com.
 
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