Facing your own death with belief in no afterlife

[Madwand1]

I'm not an atheist, and I don't have any problems with those who are. This is not a thread to debate what is atheism and what isn't, or the pros and cons of that, if I may say, but an honest appeal from a theist to gain some insight and information from atheists on how they may approach their own decline and death.

The scenario here is that you have a terminal illness. Your body is in serious decline. You've tried everything that science and pseudo-science can do, and the fact which you're having to face and address is that you're going to die. Not 'someday' in the distant future, but soon, although you don't know exactly when an in what manner your body will ultimately fail. And your body is failing, and making no secret of it. Your mortality is vividly present to your body and mind.

How do you 'deal' with your impending death and non-existence?
What, if anything, might your loved ones say to you or intellectually help you with towards that?

I fail at solving this problem, as I don't have it. I have a view of the universe which includes an afterlife. Death is a part of life, and life continues. But I can't hope to convince a life-long atheist to adopt this view at the end just to make themselves feel better.

So what would you think? How would you deal with it? What would you advise?


Locked at OP's request that the thread was getting derailed


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[justoh]

What is there to fear from death except for any possible associated pain or discomfort? One could be concerned for the people you're leaving behind, or for your own legacy i guess. Most of us will be forgotten, which could concern some people.

The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.

-mark twain

Seems like the best way to look at things. So i suppose loved ones should reaffirm that you've lived a full life? What else could they do? If i had people depending on me i'd be anxious of death for their sake. I would also really like to see what happens to us a few hundred years in the future, or thousands etc., and it bothers me that i can't.

 

[Cerb]

"Death is a part of life, and life continues," is just as true without a belief system that includes an afterlife. It's just their life ending, not all life.

Everyone has to deal with mortality. You can live a life you'll be content with, or you can not. The popular orthodoxies provide a last-minute out on the not side, where atheism doesn't: the rest of the world is having to deal with whatever choices you made, and a last minute, "I believe, and I repent," won't change anything.

I fail at solving this problem, as I don't have it. I have a view of the universe which includes an afterlife.

Is that view the right one? If it is, then no one else has that problem either. They are worrying over nothing, and will probably have a good laugh about it in the afterlife. If that view is not correct, then you do have that problem, but are not facing it.

 

[Madwand1]

What is there to fear from death except for any possible associated pain or discomfort?

That's a good question, and perhaps bears dwelling on further and sharing, but in fact, fear is present and is not a matter of choice. You, and I, are naturally afraid of death when it confronts us, and we can't simply choose not to be afraid. To a great extent I suppose it is a fear of the unknown, whether that be for the fight for your life, or the manner of your dying, or something else. There is also the fear of the loss all that you cherish in life; the converse of the hope that you'll retain it. The answer then seems to be to give up the fight and the hope, and the fear. Rational and correct perhaps, but difficult in practice.

 

[Madwand1]

Is that view the right one? If it is, then no one else has that problem either. They are worrying over nothing, and will probably have a good laugh about it in the afterlife.

Yes, that view is the right one (in my perspective), and even the atheist might have a good laugh afterwards. My question is however about life, when you're facing death in your own body and mind in the present.

 

[soulcougher73]

I dont really think much about it to be honest. One day im here. The next day im not. Just like everyone else. Hopefully people will remember me, but im sure most wont after a while.

Nobody gets out of life alive.

 

[Madwand1]

I dont really think much about it to be honest. One day im here. The next day im not. Just like everyone else

Of course, just like everyone else. But you lose the luxury of not thinking about it when you're facing death.

This is a real question. Especially as we age, we experience death around us -- of our loved ones and eventually ourselves. Most people will have their ordinary griefs and comforts, and be content with some sense of intuition or well meaning, I suppose.

The question I pose is however for those specifically who don't take comfort in that notion. How might we help them? How will you help yourself?

 

[justoh]

That's a good question, and perhaps bears dwelling on further and sharing, but in fact, fear is present and is not a matter of choice. You, and I, are naturally afraid of death when it confronts us, and we can't simply choose not to be afraid. To a great extent I suppose it is a fear of the unknown, whether that be for the fight for your life, or the manner of your dying, or something else. There is also the fear of the loss all that you cherish in life; the converse of the hope that you'll retain it. The answer then seems to be to give up the fight and the hope, and the fear. Rational and correct perhaps, but difficult in practice.

The word "fear" isn't appropriate as it's more anxiety if anything. I don't know what you're really trying to ask here, but wishing for an afterlife isn't going to be an option for any true atheist. There's no general discussion to be had about what might comfort atheists, since it'll be an individual thing. You could ask people individually to reflect upon what most concerns them about the prospect of dying. For me it would be me my almost assured anonymity. I envy people who are famous for almost any reason at all, because they may be remembered, referenced, and talked about in the future. Also what i had said previously about the future. Imagine the 3dmark scores in 2100 CE? I'm going to miss that

It's no fun accepting that we're completely insignificant and that there's probably nothing after death, but that's where we find ourselves. If you have all your crap together and plan for your death then there's nothing to fear.

 

[Cerb]

Yes, that view is the right one (in my perspective), and even the atheist might have a good laugh afterwards. My question is however about life, when you're facing death in your own body and mind in the present.

If that's all, then really, why does it matter, and what's different? Everybody dies. At this point in our development, that is an absolute. Unless you greatly regret your decisions in life, what is there to console? IoW, it is your belief system that makes it scary, because you see it as removing another life, while that's not there for the atheist to begin with.

The question I pose is however for those specifically who don't take comfort in that notion.

Maybe they'll convert on their deathbeds, out of fear? Most atheists will either have already reconciled that, or never had to.

 

[OinkBoink]

I envy people who are famous for almost any reason at all, because they may be remembered, referenced, and talked about in the future.

How does any of this matter after you're dead?

 

[Cerb]

To a great extent I suppose it is a fear of the unknown, whether that be for the fight for your life, or the manner of your dying, or something else. There is also the fear of the loss all that you cherish in life; the converse of the hope that you'll retain it. The answer then seems to be to give up the fight and the hope, and the fear. Rational and correct perhaps, but difficult in practice.

True, but that all works out the same whether you believe in something beyond life, or not. If you die and move on to some other place, you're still losing everything you had in this life. It's being left behind just as much as if you didn't have those beliefs.

 

[justoh]

How does any of this matter after you're dead?

Nothing matters when you're dead. But we're alive, right? What?

 

[WilliamM2]

That's a good question, and perhaps bears dwelling on further and sharing, but in fact, fear is present and is not a matter of choice. You, and I, are naturally afraid of death when it confronts us, and we can't simply choose not to be afraid. To a great extent I suppose it is a fear of the unknown, whether that be for the fight for your life, or the manner of your dying, or something else. There is also the fear of the loss all that you cherish in life; the converse of the hope that you'll retain it. The answer then seems to be to give up the fight and the hope, and the fear. Rational and correct perhaps, but difficult in practice.

I'm confused. If you are so sure there is an afterlife, why do you fear death at all? Sounds like your faith isn't as strong as you thought.

 

[sandorski]

Death is like having a TV Series you have invested time in getting Cancelled leaving a whole bunch of loose ends.

or

The worst part of Death is the not Living.

I don't fear it, I just think living is more interesting.

 

[Agent11]

Really depends on the life you have lived. Everyone will have various regrets, having had children and a full life would help give a sense of accomplishment.

Death is natural. You aren't really an atheist if you cannot come to terms with it.

 

[nephilim2k]

Before I go, I would euthanise myself at a place like dignitas in Switzerland, and have my body donated to medical science. I am going out on my terms then.

 

[Madwand1]

The word "fear" isn't appropriate as it's more anxiety if anything.

No, I'm referring to the fear which is experienced when you think that death is at hand. I don't care if you're a war hero or whatever, I expect that everyone would have some fear when they think that death is approaching if they have the time. This is not really a point for debate or a question of a challenge of faith. I think that it's valid to consider that this is a universal condition, and I brought it up not because I am afraid, but because you mentioned it as a response of some possible comfort to someone who is facing death -- perhaps telling them that there is nothing to fear, especially if in their view death is simply non-existence.

What I observe however is that there is fear. Let's try this: What would you, as atheist parents who have brought up a child who is terminally ill who says: "Mommy, I'm afraid of dying" say? It's probably more of a "do". You'd hug the child and tell them that everything is going to be OK. You may or may not bring up the idea that there will simply be non-existence afterwards; it probably wouldn't help. Now for an adult atheist who's dying, what could you do or say? You might do the same. On what grounds? This is an adult, explain to them how everything's going to be OK.

But please understand that I'm not trying to create an artificial debate of some sort. I'm looking for sincere thoughts and advice, and understand fully if the question leaves people without a good answer, as that's where I started.

 

[nickbits]

I've been in that situation, although it turns out I didn't have a terminal illness, just some brain disease. But when faced with the unknown, I mostly just felt fear and almost cried about it. Some people asked if they could pray for me, I said sure but obviously that is a useless exercise.
After the initial shock and things were still unknown, I had made peace with the situation and was ok with the fact that I might die.

 

[soulcougher73]

No, I'm referring to the fear which is experienced when you think that death is at hand. I don't care if you're a war hero or whatever, I expect that everyone would have some fear when they think that death is approaching if they have the time. This is not really a point for debate or a question of a challenge of faith. I think that it's valid to consider that this is a universal condition, and I brought it up not because I am afraid, but because you mentioned it as a response of some possible comfort to someone who is facing death -- perhaps telling them that there is nothing to fear, especially if in their view death is simply non-existence.

What I observe however is that there is fear. Let's try this: What would you, as atheist parents who have brought up a child who is terminally ill who says: "Mommy, I'm afraid of dying" say? It's probably more of a "do". You'd hug the child and tell them that everything is going to be OK. You may or may not bring up the idea that there will simply be non-existence afterwards; it probably wouldn't help. Now for an adult atheist who's dying, what could you do or say? You might do the same. On what grounds? This is an adult, explain to them how everything's going to be OK.

But please understand that I'm not trying to create an artificial debate of some sort. I'm looking for sincere thoughts and advice, and understand fully if the question leaves people without a good answer, as that's where I started.

I'd say "we'll if that Christian god were real and loving he should step in and save you, or he should never have created disease in the first place". but I'd probably say anything I thought would ease his mind since he is most likely too young to understand death in its entirety. And keep him as pain free as I can.

 

[Madwand1]

After the initial shock and things were still unknown, I had made peace with the situation and was ok with the fact that I might die.

Thank you for your answer. If you would remember and perhaps elaborate on how you came to terms with death, it might help us understand. I see that a lot of it if not nearly everything would be very personal, but would like the thread to focus on aspects which especially relate to an atheistic view, if possible.

 

[WelshBloke]

OP I've dealt with lots of people who are dying and religion has had less to do with how they handled it than their personality.

I've witnessed a nun raging about how unfair things are and lashing out at everyone and everything around her and I've witnessed a chap with no religion deal with his imminent death with the utmost dignity and respect.

I still remember that guy now, he was the person I want to be if I ever find myself in that position.

 

[Agent11]

No, I'm referring to the fear which is experienced when you think that death is at hand. I don't care if you're a war hero or whatever, I expect that everyone would have some fear when they think that death is approaching if they have the time. This is not really a point for debate or a question of a challenge of faith. I think that it's valid to consider that this is a universal condition, and I brought it up not because I am afraid, but because you mentioned it as a response of some possible comfort to someone who is facing death -- perhaps telling them that there is nothing to fear, especially if in their view death is simply non-existence.

What I observe however is that there is fear. Let's try this: What would you, as atheist parents who have brought up a child who is terminally ill who says: "Mommy, I'm afraid of dying" say? It's probably more of a "do". You'd hug the child and tell them that everything is going to be OK. You may or may not bring up the idea that there will simply be non-existence afterwards; it probably wouldn't help. Now for an adult atheist who's dying, what could you do or say? You might do the same. On what grounds? This is an adult, explain to them how everything's going to be OK.

But please understand that I'm not trying to create an artificial debate of some sort. I'm looking for sincere thoughts and advice, and understand fully if the question leaves people without a good answer, as that's where I started.

Many people experience emotions differently than others. Good examples would be people with aspergers or psychopaths. Although how your brain functions has a large part to play in your personality so WelshBlokes point is applicable as well, and I can say I have observed the same.

Personally I would get my affairs in order and try to have a good time with the people I care about until I die. Dwelling on the fear or wallowing in your anxiety would be a waste of time.

Now your brain isn't all of the equation, your life's experiences play a big part. If someone has suffered little grief and not pondered any philosophy I could understand them having to come to grips with how they feel about all that, but I could also understand someone not.

 

[Madwand1]

OP I've dealt with lots of people who are dying and religion has had less to do with how they handled it than their personality.

Thank you for your answer. I'm sure it's true. If the gent you mentioned had been a firm atheist, and perhaps even if not, I'd love to hear how he came by his poise. But I counter that that nun failed her test of faith, and that one can put on a robe for its benefits, or not, for other benefits, and that the question is not so much what religion do you formally subscribe to but rather what in your world view and character, which are not unrelated, allow you to retain your composure when facing death.

WelshBloke, did you find yourself able to give comfort to a dying atheist who was having difficulty in facing their death? Do you have any suggestions for that?

 

[woolfe9998]

I think what is left out here is that the fear of death is instinctive because evolution has selected this trait as beneficial to survival. The question as it pertains to varying degrees of fear is how well the individual has succeeded in suppressing the instinct with higher order thinking and socialization. Religion is one tool, which is my view involves accepting a fictional belief system which tells you that in effect you will never actually die. There are others such as learning to accept that death is a natural part of life, that it involves no pain after it has occurred, and that therefore there is nothing to fear from it. Either of these approaches can succeed or fail in assuaging the fear. It may depend on how strong the instinct is with a given individual as well as how successful they are in using these cognitive strategies to suppress it.

 

[deadken]

I believe that when I die I will be in the same state as I was before I was born.

Quite simple really. Not scary at all. The world was here before I got here. The world will be here after I'm gone. I took part (albeit, a somewhat small part) in this world for the entire time I spent alive on this planet. Hmm... Seems fair enough.

I did find it odd / revealing the way you stated "and the fact which you're having to face and address is that you're going to die". I know you went on after that, but frankly, that really clinched my view of where you are coming from. Personally, I know that I'm gonna die. In fact, EVERY single one of is going to die. I don't find it scary or worrisome. I don't know or particularly care if it is going to happen tomorrow or a few decades. Could I miss out on a things that I'd love to see (grand kids, retirement, etc...), sure. But death is natural. Completely natural. I'd say it is typically as equally as natural as life. I say typically, because there are things that can potentially make it slightly less as natural as life (IE: Random Murder). Freak accidents are still natural, someone else cutting your life short because of an interaction (such as road rage) would still be natural (well: a natural outcome for that set of unusual circumstances, but still natural).

"How do you 'deal' with your impending death and non-existence?"

Simple: Live life while you are alive. Be sure to remember to take pleasure when you slack off. Live in a way that others would like to model (set a good example for others to follow). Don't worry much, it really doesn't help things. Be humble (Someone here has a signature that says something like this: The entire world is made up of others, except for one trifling exception).

In your scenario: A person has a failing body (a warning that death is coming), it is an event that reminds one of their mortality. Now, if you aren't aware of your mortality already the thought of that warning could be scary. But, if you are, it might be considered a blessing to know that the end is definitely near. Of course, being aware my mortality I try and be at peace with my loved ones and try to always keep in touch with those who are important but not in my daily life. Knowing that there was certainly a limited amount of time left, would let me be sure not to go without saying goodbye or having a hard feeling between me and someone I cared about. In that way, it could be a blessing.

So, I'd suggest that everyone make peace with their life while they still have one. I'm pretty comfortable with my belief that when I'm gone everything in my brain will come to a halt. All that made me who I am will no longer be. I'm fine with that. I believe it has been like that for the duration that life existed on this planet. I'm not saying that I won't live on in memories of the people I've touched while here, just that I know I will no longer 'be' when I die.