Facing your own death with belief in no afterlife

[deadken]

I think what is left out here is that the fear of death is instinctive because evolution has selected this trait as beneficial to survival.....

I'm not disagreeing with your statement, but I think you left out EGO. I believe it is a major reason some people are afraid of dying.

 

[WelshBloke]

... WelshBloke, did you find yourself able to give comfort to a dying atheist who was having difficulty in facing their death? Do you have any suggestions for that?

I tend to tread very gently in those situations. It's not my place to offer an opinion on the existence or otherwise of an afterlife.

I deal strictly with the practical sides of it. Dealing with the physical side of ill health and at a push I'll give some advice on sorting out your affairs in time.

I'll be there to sit with someone at the end if they want but I'm not going to tell them what I think happens next.

TBH most people want a hand to hold more than something metaphysical.

 

[HeXen]

I'm not an atheist, and I don't have any problems with those who are. This is not a thread to debate what is atheism and what isn't, or the pros and cons of that, if I may say, but an honest appeal from a theist to gain some insight and information from atheists on how they may approach their own decline and death.

The scenario here is that you have a terminal illness. Your body is in serious decline. You've tried everything that science and pseudo-science can do, and the fact which you're having to face and address is that you're going to die. Not 'someday' in the distant future, but soon, although you don't know exactly when an in what manner your body will ultimately fail. And your body is failing, and making no secret of it. Your mortality is vividly present to your body and mind.

How do you 'deal' with your impending death and non-existence?
What, if anything, might your loved ones say to you or intellectually help you with towards that?

I fail at solving this problem, as I don't have it. I have a view of the universe which includes an afterlife. Death is a part of life, and life continues. But I can't hope to convince a life-long atheist to adopt this view at the end just to make themselves feel better.

So what would you think? How would you deal with it? What would you advise?

lol, deal with what exactly? What is there to fear about being dead whether you are religious or not. There are more tools to calm your nerves about the unknown than just religion.
Not everyone is afraid of death when it is at hand.

 

[Madwand1]

There are others such as learning to accept that death is a natural part of life, that it involves no pain after it has occurred, and that therefore there is nothing to fear from it. Either of these approaches can succeed or fail in assuaging the fear. It may depend on how strong the instinct is with a given individual as well as how successful they are in using these cognitive strategies to suppress it.

Thank you for your answer. I think that if we address the fear, which is possible intellectually at least, and are able to 'let go' of well, everything, then we are prepared for death. But when that 'letting go' involves letting go of your body which you identify with yourself, I think it's harder to do so, as you're letting go of your very self. I think in this view, that I have a new-found respect for those who maintain a strong atheistic position and composure in facing death.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I'm not an atheist, and I don't have any problems with those who are. This is not a thread to debate what is atheism and what isn't, or the pros and cons of that, if I may say, but an honest appeal from a theist to gain some insight and information from atheists on how they may approach their own decline and death.

The scenario here is that you have a terminal illness. Your body is in serious decline. You've tried everything that science and pseudo-science can do, and the fact which you're having to face and address is that you're going to die. Not 'someday' in the distant future, but soon, although you don't know exactly when an in what manner your body will ultimately fail. And your body is failing, and making no secret of it. Your mortality is vividly present to your body and mind.

How do you 'deal' with your impending death and non-existence?
What, if anything, might your loved ones say to you or intellectually help you with towards that?

Some atheists believe in reincarnation. No gods required. That's just the way the world is, to them.

I fail at solving this problem, as I don't have it. I have a view of the universe which includes an afterlife. Death is a part of life, and life continues. But I can't hope to convince a life-long atheist to adopt this view at the end just to make themselves feel better.

So what would you think? How would you deal with it? What would you advise?

I'd remind myself that I literally know nothing about what its like to die, having never experienced it before, so any and all fears I might have about it are completely unfounded.

 

[WelshBloke]

Some atheists believe in reincarnation. No gods required. That's just the way the world is, to them...

I'm not sure that I'd call someone who believes in reincarnation an atheist. I suppose you could make a literal argument for it but it seems a bit of a stretch.

 

[nanette1985]

Interesting thread - thanks all.

One - I already went through this once. Coma for two weeks, then brain surgery with complications. As far as I'm concerned, I died. I sure as heck haven't been like I was before. I'm still of the same mind as concerns religion. Also, I've had some bad health news recently. So it might be death number two soon. If there IS anything after death, I'll just deal with it - like I've dealt with all the other stuff in my existence. Because there isn't anything else I can do.

Two - my father developed stomach cancer when I was a teenager. He had been raised in an intensely religious family. When he realized how serious his cancer was, he suddenly became extremely religious. That lasted a month or so. Then he became his normal non-religious self and was much happier He was very nice to his religious relatives, but told them that it was all wrong. He died peacefully.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I'm not sure that I'd call someone who believes in reincarnation an atheist.

What about reincarnation necessitates a god-belief?

I suppose you could make a literal argument for it but it seems a bit of a stretch.

When we're dealing with academic words, are there any other types of arguments but literal ones?

Bottom line -- call them whatever you like. The fact is, there are reincarnation-believers that are not god-believers. Squabbling over semantics won't profit either of us very much.

 

[justoh]

No, I'm referring to the fear which is experienced when you think that death is at hand. I don't care if you're a war hero or whatever, I expect that everyone would have some fear when they think that death is approaching if they have the time. This is not really a point for debate or a question of a challenge of faith. I think that it's valid to consider that this is a universal condition, and I brought it up not because I am afraid, but because you mentioned it as a response of some possible comfort to someone who is facing death -- perhaps telling them that there is nothing to fear, especially if in their view death is simply non-existence.

What I observe however is that there is fear. Let's try this: What would you, as atheist parents who have brought up a child who is terminally ill who says: "Mommy, I'm afraid of dying" say? It's probably more of a "do". You'd hug the child and tell them that everything is going to be OK. You may or may not bring up the idea that there will simply be non-existence afterwards; it probably wouldn't help. Now for an adult atheist who's dying, what could you do or say? You might do the same. On what grounds? This is an adult, explain to them how everything's going to be OK.

But please understand that I'm not trying to create an artificial debate of some sort. I'm looking for sincere thoughts and advice, and understand fully if the question leaves people without a good answer, as that's where I started.

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that i absolutely don't fear death itself. I promise? hehe

If you're happy with life then It's like attending a party you happen to really enjoy. You don't want to leave, but you don't fear the hour that necessitates your departure, so when death taps you on the shoulder and tells you that the party is going on, but that you have to leave, you can still be upset or otherwise emotional about it, but not fearful.

The religious want to believe that instead of being tapped on the shoulder and told you have to leave the party, you're instead told that (1) the party is going on forever, and (2) you can't leave. I think hitchens said that. I thought it was pretty funny. Not the worst person to bring up since he just went through this.

What about hell though (assuming you're christian)? Seems like it's arguable that only the religious should fear death.

 

[WelshBloke]

... What about hell though (assuming you're christian)? Seems like it's arguable that only the religious should fear death.

That's a good point.

If I thought that I was going to be judged on an arbitrary set of rules and the punishment was as bad as it gets AND I wasn't entirely sure what those rules where and whether they had changed at all I'd probably worry about death more than I do.

 

[justoh]

What about reincarnation necessitates a god-belief?


When we're dealing with academic words, are there any other types of arguments but literal ones?

Bottom line -- call them whatever you like. The fact is, there are reincarnation-believers that are not god-believers. Squabbling over semantics won't profit either of us very much.

The point he was probably trying to make is that a "proper" atheist isn't simply a non-god believer, but someone who recognizes that there is no proof for the existence of gods. If that's the case then why would this person accept something similarly lacking evidence?

I think the problem is all these silly distinctions people still insist on making between what they call different version of atheism or between atheism and agnosticism, when there's really no point. In a post einstein/heisenberg world, nothing can be certain. So it's functionally indistinguishable.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

The point he was probably trying to make is that a "proper" atheist isn't simply a non-god believer, but someone who recognizes that there is no proof for the existence of gods.

Great, but that's totally irrelevant.

If that's the case then why would this person accept something similarly lacking evidence?

Ask them. Maybe because it makes them feel good. Maybe because they had a convincing experience like an out-of-body or near-death experience. The point is, whatever they believe, and for whatever poor reasons they believe them, if they do not believe in a god or gods, they are not theists, so they are atheists.

I think the problem is all these silly distinctions people still insist on making between what they call different version of atheism or between atheism and agnosticism, when there's really no point.

The odd thing is that is you who is trying to make a distinction between "real atheists," and "technically atheists." I'm not making any distinctions at all.

In a post einstein/heisenberg world, nothing can be certain. So it's functionally indistinguishable.

Einstein and Heisenberg were physicists. This has nothing to do with physics.

 

[WelshBloke]

What about reincarnation necessitates a god-belief?

Depends on your definition of god and the type of reincarnation I suppose.

When we're dealing with academic words, are there any other types of arguments but literal ones?

Bottom line -- call them whatever you like. The fact is, there are reincarnation-believers that are not god-believers. Squabbling over semantics won't profit either of us very much.

I suppose my main thought was that for reincarnation to occur then there'd have to be something analogous to a soul. If you believe that a consciousness can exist outside of the physical realm (or indeed that anything exists outside of the physical realm) then the existence of gods is going to be one of semantics rather than logic.

It's not really something that enters my world view really. I just tend to rely on the "does that sound a bit daft to you?" line of philosophy then shrug and get on with life.

 

[justoh]

Great, but that's totally irrelevant.


Ask them. Maybe because it makes them feel good. Maybe because they had a convincing experience like an out-of-body or near-death experience. The point is, whatever they believe, and for whatever poor reasons they believe them, if they do not believe in a god or gods, they are not theists, so they are atheists.


The odd thing is that is you who is trying to make a distinction between "real atheists," and "technically atheists." I'm not making any distinctions at all.


Einstein and Heisenberg were physicists. This has nothing to do with physics.

Their discoveries have philosophical implications.

I think it's meaningful to distinguish between someone who simply denies the existence of gods with no investigation or reflection and someone who makes the reasonably limited claim that there's no evidence for gods, the former probably deserving to be treated as almost a religious belief as well.

Why do you think it isn't meaningful?

It's relevant because the considered atheist would use that same process to dismiss the reincarnation claims.

Why do you think it's not relevant?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

This is veering too far off topic. I made my point, and it isn't important to me that either of you two agree with it. I'm content to agree to disagree on this subject, at least in this thread.

 

[Agent11]

I believe that when I die I will be in the same state as I was before I was born.

Quite simple really. Not scary at all. The world was here before I got here. The world will be here after I'm gone. I took part (albeit, a somewhat small part) in this world for the entire time I spent alive on this planet. Hmm... Seems fair enough.

I did find it odd / revealing the way you stated "and the fact which you're having to face and address is that you're going to die". I know you went on after that, but frankly, that really clinched my view of where you are coming from. Personally, I know that I'm gonna die. In fact, EVERY single one of is going to die. I don't find it scary or worrisome. I don't know or particularly care if it is going to happen tomorrow or a few decades. Could I miss out on a things that I'd love to see (grand kids, retirement, etc...), sure. But death is natural. Completely natural. I'd say it is typically as equally as natural as life. I say typically, because there are things that can potentially make it slightly less as natural as life (IE: Random Murder). Freak accidents are still natural, someone else cutting your life short because of an interaction (such as road rage) would still be natural (well: a natural outcome for that set of unusual circumstances, but still natural).

"How do you 'deal' with your impending death and non-existence?"

Simple: Live life while you are alive. Be sure to remember to take pleasure when you slack off. Live in a way that others would like to model (set a good example for others to follow). Don't worry much, it really doesn't help things. Be humble (Someone here has a signature that says something like this: The entire world is made up of others, except for one trifling exception).

In your scenario: A person has a failing body (a warning that death is coming), it is an event that reminds one of their mortality. Now, if you aren't aware of your mortality already the thought of that warning could be scary. But, if you are, it might be considered a blessing to know that the end is definitely near. Of course, being aware my mortality I try and be at peace with my loved ones and try to always keep in touch with those who are important but not in my daily life. Knowing that there was certainly a limited amount of time left, would let me be sure not to go without saying goodbye or having a hard feeling between me and someone I cared about. In that way, it could be a blessing.

So, I'd suggest that everyone make peace with their life while they still have one. I'm pretty comfortable with my belief that when I'm gone everything in my brain will come to a halt. All that made me who I am will no longer be. I'm fine with that. I believe it has been like that for the duration that life existed on this planet. I'm not saying that I won't live on in memories of the people I've touched while here, just that I know I will no longer 'be' when I die.

Well said.

 

[Madwand1]

As I wrote in the OP, I don't really want this thread to degenerate into yet another what is or isn't atheism discussion, or the attendant what proof is there for theism etc. That's really not the point here. I concede, and apologize for using the term atheism too loosely -- what the thread is about might be more akin to materialism, but I didn't want to use that term either, as that's also a charged word, and its rejection might be a way out for some who do not believe in anything approaching theism.

I don't try to categorize or describe atheists at large. In this context, it may be sufficient to interpret the problem in terms of someone who doesn't believe in any form of afterlife; to whom death will be the end of existence.

 

[justoh]

As I wrote in the OP, I don't really want this thread to degenerate into yet another what is or isn't atheism discussion, or the attendant what proof is there for theism etc. That's really not the point here. I concede, and apologize for using the term atheism too loosely -- what the thread is about might be more akin to materialism, but I didn't want to use that term either, as that's also a charged word, and its rejection might be a way out for some who do not believe in anything approaching theism.

I don't try to categorize or describe atheists at large. In this context, it may be sufficient to interpret the problem in terms of someone who doesn't believe in any form of afterlife; to whom death will be the end of existence.

Well, yes, quite. It should have probably been called it, "facing your own death as someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife."

But since you did ask atheists i think it's reasonable for me to make the distinction urged previously, because if it is simply someone who thoughtlessly rejects gods, then they could very well still believe in an afterlife, or anything else - they could simply believe that they will not die, for example.

Thus it seems like discussing what it means to be an atheist is not only not off topic but essential to making the thread intelligible.

 

[Madwand1]

Hitchens was mentioned in this thread, so I looked up some of what's been said of his death. Some of his own final words are here:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/fighting_words/2012/08/christopher_hitchens_mortality_the_unpublished_jottings_of_the_late_great_writer_and_thinker_.html

On another facing death, he wrote:

rightly, he admitted cowardice and panic alongside curiosity and occasional courage. His account sounded completely authentic: this was what living with cancer entailed; nor did being ill make you a different person, or stop you having rows with your wife

That sounds authentic to me as well, and in this context, an authentic reflection on Hitchens himself.

Also:

Brave? Hah! Save it for a fight you can't run away from..

What does that mean? That he was human, not a boast on the internet.

This video, of his wife as well, recounts however that he was working and optimistic to the end, and that he was still hopeful for a cure.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57508197/christopher-hitchens-widow-on-his-death-god-never-came-up/

Did he really give his impending death its due? I suppose the question doesn't really matter. He lived life successfully by common and presumably his own measures, fought to the end, and left something of a more lasting legacy.

That's good, that's great. I suppose most people would be more than happy with that situation, and I can't really argue against it. Some others however don't have the luxury of having cutting-edge treatment options being offered to them to the end, and have to face a tougher realization that they're actually going to die, soon.

 

[Madwand1]

I've had some bad health news recently. So it might be death number two soon. If there IS anything after death, I'll just deal with it - like I've dealt with all the other stuff in my existence. Because there isn't anything else I can do.

Thank you for your contribution to this thread; condolences on the bad news, but two's still a small number; try for a few more.

 

[IronWing]

I guess my thought is that fear of death is hard-wired as a survival mechanism. As mentally healthy folks we aught to be afraid of dying. Comforting thoughts don't really override this but maybe serve to distract us from our fate.

 

[Kadarin]

I'm not going to invent or adopt a set of arbitrary beliefs in order to make myself comfortable with the ultimate inevitability. Whatever happens happens, and I just hope the process itself isn't painful.

 

[GreenMeters]

I guess my thought is that fear of death is hard-wired as a survival mechanism. As mentally healthy folks we aught to be afraid of dying. Comforting thoughts don't really override this but maybe serve to distract us from our fate.

No, as a survival mechanism it makes sense for us to have--to some extent--a fear of things that can kill us. Of course, there's risk/reward factors that have to be balanced as well. But it doesn't make sense to be afraid of death in the abstract.

 

[shadow9d9]

Yes, that view is the right one (in my perspective), and even the atheist might have a good laugh afterwards. My question is however about life, when you're facing death in your own body and mind in the present.

You may HOPE that it is the right one... but either there is or isn't. Atheists and non atheists will end up having the same consequences to death. Being sure that your fantasy is reality won't make it come true.

Some people just aren't comforted by make believe. I, for example, can't be comforted by it because it doesn't pass the test in my brain... I can't trick myself into believing something so preposterous, even if I wanted to...

 

[JD50]

I think an Atheist would have an easier time dealing with death than a theist. As an Atheist, I don't have to worry about going to hell. Out of the thousands of different gods and religions, are you sure that you picked the right god to worship? Are you sure that you did everything that you're supposed to do in order to get into heaven? Are you sure that your interpretation of $RELIGIOUS_TEXT is correct? Sounds kinda nerve wracking to me.