Facing your own death with belief in no afterlife

[fskimospy]

I don't believe I technically qualify to comment on this subject but it seems to me that there's a question that begs an answer in my opinion..."Why should someone who doesn't believe in the afterlife be afraid to die...especially since they believe that there is no "unknown" to be afraid or anxious about?" In other words, what is there to be afraid of?

I imagine that's why so many religions have a prohibition of sorts on suicide. I mean if heaven is supposed to be the best place ever, why waste time on Earth?

Overall I think the idea that people love me and will miss me would provide me a measure of comfort, but I think that would be at best a modest comfort.

 

[Caravaggio]

This point has been raised earlier, and while it is valid, I consider it off-topic in this thread.

If it is valid it might just be worth an answer?

I've discussed it further myself, going years back, in this forum.

I was not here then. Must I recall all of your posts to take part here?

To be clear -- from an anti-hell position if that mention helps to reduce additional distraction.

Any discussion of hell only adds obfuscation. The onus is on you to demonstrate that such a thing as "hell" exists. Once you have done that we can continue using your proven terms.

I'm specifically asking about those who have a belief in no afterlife, as a real problem, not as an argument for entertainment.

You must realise that question is oxymoronic. How can someone with no theological beliefs have a belief in "no afterlife".
You are being lazy. It is for you to demonstrate to us that such a thing as an "afterlife", meaning , I assume, a state more than just being dead, even exists.

And finally, I was not being entertaining, I was mocking the absurdity of your position. Since no person responding to your thread has come close to your perfect answer, perhaps you could tell us what features such an answer might have?
Or we're you just shooting the breeze by trying to score a few cheap points against atheists?

 

[Madwand1]

I don't believe I technically qualify to comment on this subject but it seems to me that there's a question that begs an answer in my opinion..."Why should someone who doesn't believe in the afterlife be afraid to die...especially since they believe that there is no "unknown" to be afraid or anxious about?" In other words, what is there to be afraid of?

Fear doesn't have to be rational, and as some have suggested, can have a subconscious origin. It's a fact that fear is present (to some if not all) at the approach of death, including some who hold that there is no afterlife. Of course non-existence or death is held by most to be painless -- we casually write and say RIP, but that doesn't mean that the transition to death, giving up existence itself in the minds of those who hold that belief, need be easy.

 

[RampantAndroid]

I imagine that's why so many religions have a prohibition of sorts on suicide. I mean if heaven is supposed to be the best place ever, why waste time on Earth?

Overall I think the idea that people love me and will miss me would provide me a measure of comfort, but I think that would be at best a modest comfort.

If you look up existentialism, and specifically Kierkegaard, you'll find that people who don't believe in religion just add meaning themselves. I want to live because there's some I have feelings for. Because I want to finish planning and build a headphone amp. Because I have friends, and I'm best man at someone's wedding.

In other words, I create the meaning to live.

From wikipedia on Kierkegaard:

He proposed that each individual—not society or religion—is solely responsible for giving meaning to life and living it passionately and sincerely ("authentically").

 

[Madwand1]

I think I have an ultimate answer to my question. If you are not ready to face death, the long process of dying will itself prepare you for it, at the simplistic level of becoming a preferable alternative to the pain and suffering, but even when pain is being controlled also at a more profound level of giving you more experience of dying as a loss of your life and body.

 

[Via]

My grandfather was an incredibly lucky man.

He lived a long, full life to the age of 88, all while retaining the sharpness and wit of a 40 year old (I'm not exaggerating about that). And yet: when the time came for him to go he wasn't ready.

I wasn't there. I'm so fucking glad I wasn't there. From the accounts I heard he was scared shitless, alternately yelling at people to leave and crying for a priest. I'm pretty sure the implications of his non-existence were too much for him to bear.

It scares me still to this day, because I'm a very similar person to him. When my time comes will I face it with courage? Will I make my passing easier on those who care about me and are sorry to see me leave? Will I be brave?

These are all uneasy questions.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

My grandfather was an incredibly lucky man.

He lived a long, full life to the age of 88, all while retaining the sharpness and wit of a 40 year old (I'm not exaggerating about that). And yet: when the time came for him to go he wasn't ready.

I wasn't there. I'm so fucking glad I wasn't there. From the accounts I heard he was scared shitless, alternately yelling at people to leave and crying for a priest. I'm pretty sure the implications of his non-existence were too much for him to bear.

It scares me still to this day, because I'm a very similar person to him. When my time comes will I face it with courage? Will I make my passing easier on those who care about me and are sorry to see me leave? Will I be brave?

These are all uneasy questions.

I wonder why he asked for a priest. Hmm. Perhaps he saw some visions which were terrifying.

 

[Via]

I wonder why he asked for a priest. Hmm. Perhaps he saw some visions which were terrifying.

I don't think so. From what I understand he was torn about being administered his last rites and finally decided to go through with it.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

I don't think so. From what I understand he was torn about being administered his last rites and finally decided to go through with it.

Smart man. He remember and asked for Jesus at the end. I pray you'll do the same if given the chance.

 

[bradly1101]

How do you 'deal' with your impending death and non-existence?

There is a path some take that recognizes that everything is temporary, and that getting attached to anything is not skilful. And that this desire leads to suffering.

Detaching from these temporary things is something everybody does a lot. We can't start feeling happy when we're angry unless we let go of the anger.

Truly letting go of a relationship that has ended, or a flooded home, or a car is such a perfect, empty and serene experience.

Isn't death then the ultimate experience of detachment?

I think of letting go of it all and the permanent emptiness and serenity that I may not experience after my brain dies, but on the way there I hope to know the stillness of ultimate detachment. And there will be an end to desire and therefore suffering.

So to me there are things to look forward to in death, but I won't be accelerating down the road that leads there.

 

[Madwand1]

Smart man. He remember and asked for Jesus at the end. I pray you'll do the same if given the chance.

Sorry, but this is off-topic in this thread. Please start your own if you wish and be respectful of the intended purpose of this one.

I hoped to have made clear from the beginning that this was, whether or not a successful method for others, not applicable in this thread.

 

[flexy]

First, let's please define what an "atheist" is? (Or agnostic for that matter).

Those two terms are also rather stereotypical so I simply reject them.

Why? Because I, as a halfway 'smart' human being very well have a BELIEF, but this belief has nothing to do with any institutional church like Christianity etc. So..for such people I might be an "atheist" simply because I don't believe in a diety or THEIR idea of a god? Nonsense.

I have recently read many, many good books which cover the subjects of NDEs, afterlife and reincarnation (check the books by Michael Newton, they are really good) but also old classics which I re-discovered like the "Seth" books.

So..you could say that I am "spiritual" but really not in a naive, stereotypical way.

According to my own philosophy and many of those spiritual schools, I now *STRONGLY* believe that our consciousness (or 'soul') is independent from our physical bodies. Our physical body is only a temporary means for our "over-ego" to be able to live physicality. Consciousness is FAR more. The funny thing is that modern sciences are more and more tending to agree with this type of thinking, almost to a point that it is speculated that "reality" is actually really created/a part of our consciousness.

After a lot of my own ideas and reading a lot of good books there is a lot more evidence for a duality of body/"ego" where the mechanistic view that "the brain produces consciousness" or "when we die everything ends" is helplessly outdated...this has actually been proven multiple times already.

The funny thing here is..look at the term atTHEIST and you calling yourself a THEIST. The believing in an afterlife does NOT require a God. In fact, reading a-plenty of interesting books on the subject the idea of God comes actually rarely up!! Or "revelations" and experiences happen which have not a lot to do with our traditional idea of god...

What I am saying...being an a/anti-theist does in no way automatically imply that the idea of the afterlife is being rejected.

What do you want? You want to "have someone adopt your view"..aka..walking from door to door and selling bibles? Or telling him that YOUR view is better because you heard something "from your priest in church"...and now you wonder why you have difficulties to convince someone? That's pretty funny.

I have no clue what your theism is based on..whether you "belong" to some church and now you are attempting to make the other guy to believe.

The key difference between spiritual ideas and religion is that spiritualiy requires PERSONAL EXPERIENCE while religion is a 3rd hand experience where you are "taught" to believe in something because "someone tells you so". This is an extreme difference.

You are not obliged to teach him anything and for GOD'S SAKE (pun) don't preach someone else some 3rd hand religious teachings because it won't achieve anything but you coming along as being annoying.

For me, the "spiritual process" (if you will) in believing what I believe now has nothing to do with what others (schools, church etc.) taught me, but more from logical reasoning and seeing patterns and making conclusions.

Go read some books on NDEs, for example...or wonder why many older, native beliefs have so many common elements...or why even Christianity IN ITS EARLY ROOTS was actually spiritual with similar elements like reincarnation (Christ comes back to earth etc. while now of course they reject the idea...<-- lol ) , etc....there is a pattern there in many beliefs and religions.

And in time, the so called "out there" spiritual beliefs about a consciousness which is independent from a brain are far more credible than the materialistic views.

Whether "your friend" or whoever will ever get there (by thinking, learning, experiencing etc..) I don't know. But you can start giving him some books to read and get him to think.

You might want to start there:

http://www.amazon.com/Chris-Carter/e...304923&amp;sr=8-19

Those are good books on the subject of afterlife/NDE, Newton and the Seth books might still be a little too "far out"

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

How does any of this matter after you're dead?

It's true for a little bit, but then everyone is forgotten eventually. For me death isn't so much an issue as lack of an underlying purpose. "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity" is a quote from the KJV meaning everything is pointless. I choose not to believe that.

 

[hans030390]

How do you 'deal' with your impending death and non-existence? What, if anything, might your loved ones say to you or intellectually help you with towards that?

As an atheist, you don't "deal" with death. You live your life and you eventually die, and that's that. And you know what? I'm perfectly OK with that. There is nothing inherently good, bad, sad, or happy to deal with in that. "Dealing with death" is only an idea that goes through the mind of those that believe in some sort of afterlife.

Having come from a strong religious background (I was a Christian for the first 19-20 years of my life, which is the vast majority of it), I can understand why you would think this way. But, as an atheist, I found that all of these ideas and fears I had were simply wiped away when I dropped my religious beliefs and philosophy. They were simply no longer applicable to my thinking and my reality.

But, the best answer I have is that when I'm dead, I'll be too dead to know and care about anything else.

 

[woolfe9998]

After a lot of my own ideas and reading a lot of good books there is a lot more evidence for a duality of body/"ego" where the mechanistic view that "the brain produces consciousness" or "when we die everything ends" is helplessly outdated...this has actually been proven multiple times already.

The funny thing here is..look at the term atTHEIST and you calling yourself a THEIST. The believing in an afterlife does NOT require a God. In fact, reading a-plenty of interesting books on the subject the idea of God comes actually rarely up!! Or "revelations" and experiences happen which have not a lot to do with our traditional idea of god...

What I am saying...being an a/anti-theist does in no way automatically imply that the idea of the afterlife is being rejected.

What do you want? You want to "have someone adopt your view"..aka..walking from door to door and selling bibles? Or telling him that YOUR view is better because you heard something "from your priest in church"...and now you wonder why you have difficulties to convince someone? That's pretty funny.

I have no clue what your theism is based on..whether you "belong" to some church and now you are attempting to make the other guy to believe.

The key difference between spiritual ideas and religion is that spiritualiy requires PERSONAL EXPERIENCE while religion is a 3rd hand experience where you are "taught" to believe in something because "someone tells you so". This is an extreme difference.

You are not obliged to teach him anything and for GOD'S SAKE (pun) don't preach someone else some 3rd hand religious teachings because it won't achieve anything but you coming along as being annoying.

For me, the "spiritual process" (if you will) in believing what I believe now has nothing to do with what others (schools, church etc.) taught me, but more from logical reasoning and seeing patterns and making conclusions.

Go read some books on NDEs, for example...or wonder why many older, native beliefs have so many common elements...or why even Christianity IN ITS EARLY ROOTS was actually spiritual with similar elements like reincarnation (Christ comes back to earth etc. while now of course they reject the idea...<-- lol ) , etc....there is a pattern there in many beliefs and religions.

And in time, the so called "out there" spiritual beliefs about a consciousness which is independent from a brain are far more credible than the materialistic views.

Whether "your friend" or whoever will ever get there (by thinking, learning, experiencing etc..) I don't know. But you can start giving him some books to read and get him to think.

You might want to start there:

http://www.amazon.com/Chris-Carter/e...304923&amp;sr=8-19

Those are good books on the subject of afterlife/NDE, Newton and the Seth books might still be a little too "far out"

Could you please site some scientific evidence of the mind/body duality, meaning from someone with an actual scientific background?

 

[v-600]

After reading the first couple of pages and skimming the last few I have to question the assumption that atheism implies a lack of anything beyond death. There's decomposition for one thing

I kind of agree with the suggestion that an atheist can believe in reincarnation. Its taken me a while to realise/decide that I do not believe in a monotheistic creator god and am quite happy with my life. There are aspects of reincarnation that I disagree with but if we assume we all live in a world where reincarnation happens, then you don't need a god for that any more than you need a god for gravity to function. Its just one of those things you have no control over. Similarly, if there is an afterlife full of carousing, cavorting, alcoholism sans hangovers, nubile maidens and rock concerts, then I don't see how any belief in it on my part will change that any more than, like the previous example, changing the strength of gravity just because I believe in it.

I remember my mother facing cancer, and eventual death, which brought home the acceptance that this will happen to me too (though I often joke that past behaviour isn't an infallible indicator of future behaviour). It is something that has happened to the vast majority of people so far and will continue to happen to everyone alive at present.

I have had no otherworldly input from my great great great grand uncles nephew, or anybody else's relations for that matter. If there is an afterlife, it doesn't affect my living day to day life now.

On the other hand, I am still affected by my mothers, grandparents, uncles actions while they were alive. They are in part responsible for my sense of humour, my morals and beliefs, the actions I take and the job I have. Without them and the actions/interactions/ideas they had while alive my life would not be the same.

Finally responding to the OP of how do I deal with my impending death. I damn well carry on doing the same thing I am doing now trying to improve the world around me, helping those that need help and making sure my friends and family remember me and benefit from my company. In my view this far better than preparing to ah heck off up the wazoo, saying woe is me but thankfully there is an afterlife for me, and letting the rest of the world go hang.

 

[flexy]

Could you please site some scientific evidence of the mind/body duality, meaning from someone with an actual scientific background?

Read the books by Carter.

There have been plenty of studies where already 1000s of people were asked about their NDE experiences, that's just one example.

Those many thousand of people report, in essence, the same thing.

Scientists are often trying to explain it away, after some scrutiny, is just ridiculous. One often give "explanation" is that NDEs are a result of a "dying brain" and the experiences are triggered by the release of DMT in the brain.

This WOULD actually work as an explanation - problem is only that some people have NDEs without being in mortal danger or without any physical ailment.

There are examples of people having NDEs in the seconds before a potential (!) car accident, eg. the example of the woman who had an NDE when her car veered out of control. (One theory is that in such situations the "soul" leaves the body if it knows that death is imminent. In that case, the woman has your classic NDE and then is given a choice, returns to her body and the accident is actually avoided).

There is another classic case where a woman undergoes surgery where her entire body is literally pumped blood-less and "frozen" where she undergoes a certain brain surgery that can only performed that way. She is literally brain-dead while she is undergoing this surgery.

And of course many re-incarnation accounts, often by children. (The theory is that the memory of a former life persists up to the age of 5 or so but is later on forgotten. This is the reason there are many astonishing reincarnation memories by children)

SOME of those studies have been conducted by serious scientists, it's not ALL "hocus pocus new age" science.

Mind you I am always trying to separate the less credible books/authors because there IS a lot of bad literature out there as well..but eg Carter (above link) is really a good start for more serious investigation.

This is also good:

http://thepiratebay.sx/torrent/8724...he_Evidence_for_the_Afterlife_-_Victor_Zammit

(This is a FREE ebook which can be shared, so don't mind the torrent or the source I put it on. I converted this from a PDF/online version into Mobi/Kindle).

Somewhere in those books is a line which goes like "To prove that white horses exist all it needs is ONE white horse."

I personally think that the evidence we have eg. from NDEs etc. is overwhelming...and now add certain spiritual schools and beliefs...and start to see the underlying pattern. As I said earlier, even Christianity at its roots actually had common spiritual ideas, pretty much the same. Of course, it's wrong that there is only "one afterlife" and "judgement" later on "in heaven"...but on a certain level those are semantics of course which somehow become irrelevant.

By the way, read the books by Newton (Journey of Souls, Destiny of Sould) there is some really "far out" and startling/puzzling accounts in regards to who/what God is.