FACT: Neocons have gone totally batsh*t insane! ... 7/25 Neocons want Rice Gone!

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,849
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Since the end of the Cold War, the hotspots and trouble areas across the radar screen are concentrated primarily in the Middle East...with North Korea thrown into the mix as well.

Iran...Iraq...North Korea...all were and arguably remain enemies of the United States.

Now in a perfect world, we would be able to engage these nations through diplomacy...but such a mindset assumes that all parties involved are rational actors...the leadership of Iran, Iraq under Saddam and North Korea were and remain completely irrational.

Is that enough justification to go to war...hard to say...precedence would certainly suggest that nations have gone to war over more trivial disagreements.

The NeoCons may be batshit insane, but that doesnt change the fact that there are some truly dangerous regimes in the world today, and perhaps it is in America's best interest to knock them out now before they have an opportunity to truly threaten us.

But I also believe that pre-emption is justifiable under certain conditions.

Since the end of the Cold War as well as during the Cold War the USA has been aiding and abetting dictatorships -- SADDAM HUSSEIN FOR EXAMPLE -- THE SHAH OF IRAN FOR ANOTHER -- that have destabilized the Middle East as well as other regions. Central America for another example. South America with the U.S. aided and abetted assassination of a democratically elected leader, Allende, that led to the military dictatorship of the USA installed Pinochet who oversaw the "disappearance" of THOUSANDS of Chileans during his brutal reign.

The USA and Soviet Union were the forces behind the war in Afghanistan that led to the TALIBAN. The USA aided and abetted OSAMA BIN LADEN.

You live in a fantasy world where the good guys wear white hats and are all good and the bad guys wear black hats and are all bad. You can believe the party line fantasies but please don't expect me to believe them too but the USA has plenty of dirt under its fingernails. And they're getting dirtier all the time.

It all depends what your viewpoint is and how much propaganda you're willing to swallow. For instance, if you actually believe that the U.S. led destruction of Iraq was a good thing there is no hope for you, you're probably too far gone already. Just keep taking your propaganda pills on time and don't forget to wash them down with plenty of that delicious Kool-Aid.


As much as I do not like to admit it, the US has been involved in a great many activities to oust or install political leaders when the climate suits us. The use of force to achieve political gains smacks of terrorism to me. Though as the aggressors, we "always" look out for the best interest (read Natural resources, or appointed Allies) of the countries we are tending to. I think our big problem is that we fear cultures that our not like ours. This causes us to seek out people that are willing for financial or political gain, to become our appointed champions where we are trying to do "The Right Thing?".

I don't think that the US should be the world police, not because it can't but because of the resentment it causes in the rest of the world. We, if needed, should use our military forces to become moderators in the international community. Certainly kicking down doors and killing "terrorists" makes for great new headlines, we are placing our military forces in unncessary danger. Our latest missteps will only add to the amount of people that will want retribution for the acts that have been carried out under the US name. When you let the hate fester for generations, you'll eventually discover precisely the situation we now have. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. If someone is willing to turn on their fellow countryman for personal gains, it will only be a matter of time before they will turn on you if something greater can be aquired.
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Since the end of the Cold War, the hotspots and trouble areas across the radar screen are concentrated primarily in the Middle East...with North Korea thrown into the mix as well.

Iran...Iraq...North Korea...all were and arguably remain enemies of the United States.

Now in a perfect world, we would be able to engage these nations through diplomacy...but such a mindset assumes that all parties involved are rational actors...the leadership of Iran, Iraq under Saddam and North Korea were and remain completely irrational.

Is that enough justification to go to war...hard to say...precedence would certainly suggest that nations have gone to war over more trivial disagreements.

The NeoCons may be batshit insane, but that doesnt change the fact that there are some truly dangerous regimes in the world today, and perhaps it is in America's best interest to knock them out now before they have an opportunity to truly threaten us.

But I also believe that pre-emption is justifiable under certain conditions.

Since the end of the Cold War as well as during the Cold War the USA has been aiding and abetting dictatorships -- SADDAM HUSSEIN FOR EXAMPLE -- THE SHAH OF IRAN FOR ANOTHER -- that have destabilized the Middle East as well as other regions. Central America for another example. South America with the U.S. aided and abetted assassination of a democratically elected leader, Allende, that led to the military dictatorship of the USA installed Pinochet who oversaw the "disappearance" of THOUSANDS of Chileans during his brutal reign.

The USA and Soviet Union were the forces behind the war in Afghanistan that led to the TALIBAN. The USA aided and abetted OSAMA BIN LADEN.

You live in a fantasy world where the good guys wear white hats and are all good and the bad guys wear black hats and are all bad. You can believe the party line fantasies but please don't expect me to believe them too but the USA has plenty of dirt under its fingernails. And they're getting dirtier all the time.

It all depends what your viewpoint is and how much propaganda you're willing to swallow. For instance, if you actually believe that the U.S. led destruction of Iraq was a good thing there is no hope for you, you're probably too far gone already. Just keep taking your propaganda pills on time and don't forget to wash them down with plenty of that delicious Kool-Aid.

What BBond said.

And in a nutshell one can trace the beginnings of modern day Islamic terrorism to the overthrow of the legitimate elected govt of the popular Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh of Iran by the CIA/MI6 (google Operation Ajax 1953 to learn more). They installed the Shah who was unpopular despite the improvements he made to the country.

More to topic, that lead to an increasingly violent opposition which ultimately led to the Iranian revolution and the occupation of the US embassy. Iran also sponsored the fundamentalists among the palestinians who pioneered the norm of suicide bombings.

As BBond pointed out proxy battles have been fought in recent times with the US at some point or the other backing the very groups it denounces as terrorists today.

You reap what you sow.



 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: conjur
1) You're diverting the subject of this thread. But, to answer that baseless claim above, I did not post any contradictions. I bolded and highlighted, TWICE, that the 50% was discretionary funds.
2) You're claiming an association between the standard view from the left and one nutcase caller to a rwingnut talk radio show (where all callers are pretty much off their rocker or else the shows wouldn't get the ratings they do).

Now, how about you stop the diversionary trolling and focus on the subject of the thread? Or is that too much to ask of your youthful ignorance?

Right but in your same drivel you said the Military eats 50% of the fiscal budget. There is a difference between the fiscal budget and dicretionary funds bunkie.

Not once did I associate the entire left with this wingbats comments. I called him a "partisan hack". If you consider "partisan hacks" the norm for the entire left that is your problem, not mine.

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: conjur
1) You're diverting the subject of this thread. But, to answer that baseless claim above, I did not post any contradictions. I bolded and highlighted, TWICE, that the 50% was discretionary funds.
2) You're claiming an association between the standard view from the left and one nutcase caller to a rwingnut talk radio show (where all callers are pretty much off their rocker or else the shows wouldn't get the ratings they do).

Now, how about you stop the diversionary trolling and focus on the subject of the thread? Or is that too much to ask of your youthful ignorance?

Right but in your same drivel you said the Military eats 50% of the fiscal budget. There is a difference between the fiscal budget and dicretionary funds bunkie.

Not once did I associate the entire left with this wingbats comments. I called him a "partisan hack". If you consider "partisan hacks" the norm for the entire left that is your problem, not mine.

It's very easy to see why you insist on ignoring the subject of this thread and posting your usual, tired, useless drivel.

 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
From Starbuck1975-

Now in a perfect world, we would be able to engage these nations through diplomacy...but such a mindset assumes that all parties involved are rational actors...

I'm sure that the rational parties on the other side view the Current US Admin in the same light... much as George Will does.

Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of all of this is that anybody grants the Admin and their sycophants any credibility at all- even with the demonstrable exaggerations and outright lies, the will to believe remains unshaken. It's apparently some as yet un-named form of mass hypnotism and hysteria, a form of denial so strongly rooted that it's almost impossible to overcome... Reminds me sadly of Jonestown and the Branch Davidians... except the likely outcome won't be mass suicide, but rather the Orwellian state of perpetual war and accompanying doublespeak...
 

FrancesBeansRevenge

Platinum Member
Jun 6, 2001
2,181
0
0
As low as my opinion of our population has slid, I still can't imagine the majority of us are blind enough to accept the same drumbeat for Iran that we did for Iraq.
Certainly most of us are capable of recognizing a serious mistake, and when we've been duped, and would try to avoid doing it again.

Then again, if you look at the results of the PIPA survey after the 2004 elections that is mentioned in the RFK Jr. piece,
"75% of the Republican respondents believed that Saddam Hussein bombed the World Trade Center, and 72% believed that WMD had been found in Iraq".

How can you even begin to fight this complete disconnect from reality?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge
As low as my opinion of our population has slid, I still can't imagine the majority of us are blind enough to accept the same drumbeat for Iran that we did for Iraq.
Certainly most of us are capable of recognizing a serious mistake, and when we've been duped, and would try to avoid doing it again.

Then again, if you look at the results of the PIPA survey after the 2004 elections that is mentioned in the RFK Jr. piece,
"75% of the Republican respondents believed that Saddam Hussein bombed the World Trade Center, and 72% believed that WMD had been found in Iraq".

How can you even begin to fight this complete disconnect from reality?

There are some people who are too far gone to ever be brought back to reality but there are those who can still be reached. Just as bush's continual repetition of lies has succeeded in keeping so many Americans in this semi-conscious zombie-like dream state of denial and approval the continual repetition of the truth will keep the rest of us grounded in reality and may even wake some of the zombies from their trance.

With that possibility in mind here is a good strong dose of truth for America from the San Francisco Chronicle, because this nation is most certainly in need of it.

Bush's vision, and the region, appear to be near collapse

Marc Sandalow, Washington Bureau Chief

Wednesday, July 19, 2006

(07-19) 04:00 PDT Washington -- The Bush administration's notion that toppling Saddam Hussein would stabilize a turbulent region is among the casualties of this week's Middle East carnage.

The death toll in Lebanon and Israel, which exceeds 250 in the past week, is a grim reminder that the sectarian violence in Baghdad 500 miles to the east is but one of many hotspots in a region that has been plagued by violence for more than 1,000 years.

The oft-stated hope that a new Iraqi government would swiftly transform the region's fractured politics has been realized with unintended consequences: an emboldened Iran; the victory of Hamas in Palestinian elections; and Syria's departure from Lebanon. The familiar strain has been hatred between the Arabs and Israelis and a widely held assumption that the situation will grow worse before it improves.

"Unless and until you solve the Arab-Israel conflict, you are going to have instability in the region,'' said Steven Cook, a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York.

Some scholars view the situation from the opposite direction. Coit Blacker, director of Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies at Stanford, believes that "there is no answer to the Arab-Israel conflict until the nature of politics within the region changes substantially.''

Yet there is wide agreement that more than three years after attacking Iraq, the administration's mission to build a democracy that would foster stability -- the most often cited reason to go to war after ridding Hussein of his weapons of mass destruction -- is a long way from being accomplished.

"Partly as a result of what's happening in Iraq, the whole region seems to be separating along sectarian lines,'' said Michael Sterner, former U.S. ambassador to the United Arab Emirates and an assistant secretary of state under President Jimmy Carter.

"I haven't seen every clash as being something that portends doom, but it's a trend that is rather dangerous in my opinion. It could really spell trouble,'' Sterner said.


The path from the U.S. invasion of Iraq to this week's clash between Israel and Hezbollah is a matter of conjecture. However, most analysts agree that Syria and Iran are behind Hezbollah's actions, and have been stirred, in part, by the 2003 attack.

"It's an inescapable fact, as uncomfortable as it is, that the ... Iranian position is stronger than it otherwise would be,'' Blacker said. "It's not an accident that on the more traditional Middle East front, things are heating up again. The Iranians are trying to send a concrete signal.''

The overthrow of Iran's Sunni enemies in Iraq has "created an Iranian moment,'' Cook said.


The Syrians, who are largely Sunnis, withdrew from Lebanon last year, a move which was widely hailed as a positive consequence of Hussein's demise. Yet they left behind a government in Lebanon, though democratically elected, apparently too weak to control the violent Hezbollah forces who have been firing missiles at the Israelis and killing scores of its citizens.

This was not the sort of geopolitical shakeup predicted by President Bush when he declared two weeks before the Iraq invasion that "acting against the danger will also contribute greatly to the long-term safety and stability of our world.''

Although such stability in the future is not out of the question, it is clear that the Bush administration expected results far more quickly.

Pentagon adviser Richard Perle, an administration confidant who was among the strongest proponents of the notion that overthrowing Hussein would stabilize the region, insisted at the time the war began that the fruits of Iraq's liberation would come quickly.

"We want to bring real stability to the region,'' Perle said in a 2003 debate sponsored by Foreign Policy magazine. "We will hand over power quickly -- not in years, maybe not even in months -- to give Iraqis a chance to shape their own destiny. The world will see this.''

Perle said the chances for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict "will improve as soon as Saddam is gone,'' and asserted that afterward "we will have a very good opportunity ... to persuade Syria to stop sponsoring terrorism.

"I promise we will be more effective in that if we remove Hussein,'' Perle said, exhibiting the confidence shared by many in the administration.

Three years later, it is the attack on Iraq that many critics cite as the reason that Bush is unable to engage Syria. Rather than directly taking to Syrian President Bashar Assad, Bush told British Prime Minister Tony Blair that he wishes U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan would apply such pressure. It was in the same conversation, which unbeknownst to Bush and Blair was being captured by an open microphone, that Bush said: "The thing is, what they need to do is to get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this s -- and it's over.''


It is uncertain that any amount of diplomacy could have stopped the recent violence. Previous presidents have invested far more time and effort in Middle East negotiations, without lasting results. Yet Bush must now battle the perception, certainly throughout the Arab world, that he has embarked on a policy of failure.

According to Hisham Milhem, Washington correspondent for the Lebanese paper Al-Nahar, there is a sense that "America's moment in the Middle East has come to an end, or to be specific, George Bush's moment in the Middle East is over ... and that the Americans are drowning in Iraq's quicksand, that the American project, the drive to spread democracy in the Middle East, has reached a dead end.''

In the weeks before the war began, Bush said that "old patterns of conflict in the Middle East can be broken. ... America will seize every opportunity in pursuit of peace. And the end of the present regime in Iraq would create such an opportunity.''

Yet the consequences have not been what Bush envisioned.

"Even if you defeat one group, what happens if you create an environment where others will take its place, whether it is in Lebanon or in Syria?'' asked Shibley Telhami, a Middle East expert at the University of Maryland.


 

CptObvious

Platinum Member
Mar 5, 2004
2,500
1
76
sad to see how many people are suckered in to supporting starting new wars based on progressively (regressively?) worse justifications. most (liberals and traditional conservatives) agree that america should only involve itself in wars to defend itself. somehow the neoconservatives in the current administration have stretched this idea of defending america beyond reason to preemptively attacking other countries before they even become an imminent threat.

i couldn't believe the poll numbers when the administration made its case for war in iraq. people were convinced that iraq was an imminent threat and was about to launch nukes on america at any minute based on tenuous intelligence. the regime change argument was on the backburner - it was brought up as sort of a side benefit but it wasn't the main reason. the administration wasn't deluding itself then that it was on some sort of humanitarian mission at the cost of hundreds of billions of dollars and american lives. yet after it became clear that iraq wasn't an imminent threat and probably did not even have wmds, people still accepted the regime change argument hook, line and sinker.

now it doesn't even take an allegation that a country is an imminent threat to get people riled up about invading it. just the possibility that it may develop wmds is enough, along with an argument that the gov't opposes american interests. if this is the new standard we're going by then i guess we'll be in for a very long war against many new countries. somehow i wouldn't be surprised if this list of target countries includes other opec countries like saudi arabia and venezuela in the next few years.
 

straightalker

Senior member
Dec 21, 2005
515
0
0
Watch out for being manipulated into getting yourselves boxed into the phony left-right paradigm.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_newsom_122302_leftright.html

The NeoCons are simply a set of for hire crazzies willing to conduct evil for their employers.

Part of the strategy they employ is based on extremely clever psyops. For instance. They can box in the opposition by controlling the debate. Read the article please.
Famous evil geniuses like Julius Caesar and Adolph Hitler understood that the easiest way to win a war was not to fight one - not physically, anyway. These men understood that the most efficient way to dominate a people is to make them believe there are no other realistic alternatives, or, better yet, to define what is reality itself.
Is everyone in USA Politics either left or right? Liberal or conservative? Is this reality? Or perception control?

Note how "phony conservative" scum like Ann Coulter pound our ears with their perception control. Liberals are our greatest enemy they say. Baloney!

There's just good and evil. Those are the two sides. One side has a sense of decency and the other side are all scum.

Charlie Reese occasional pens an excellent statement. He says in his definition of evil that the worst evil is the willingness to kill innocent people to achieve the goals of your agenda.

The NeoCons are by that difinition extremely evil.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: straightalker
Watch out for being manipulated into getting yourselves boxed into the phony left-right paradigm.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_newsom_122302_leftright.html

The NeoCons are simply a set of for hire crazzies willing to conduct evil for their employers.

Part of the strategy they employ is based on extremely clever psyops. For instance. They can box in the opposition by controlling the debate. Read the article please.
Famous evil geniuses like Julius Caesar and Adolph Hitler understood that the easiest way to win a war was not to fight one - not physically, anyway. These men understood that the most efficient way to dominate a people is to make them believe there are no other realistic alternatives, or, better yet, to define what is reality itself.
Is everyone in USA Politics either left or right? Liberal or conservative? Is this reality? Or perception control?

Note how "phony conservative" scum like Ann Coulter pound our ears with their perception control. Liberals are our greatest enemy they say. Baloney!

There's just good and evil. Those are the two sides. One side has a sense of decency and the other side are all scum.

Charlie Reese occasional pens an excellent statement. He says in his definition of evil that the worst evil is the willingness to kill innocent people to achieve the goals of your agenda.

The NeoCons are by that difinition extremely evil.

You mean like this?

Bush: Beyond Reason

?That?s not the way the world really works anymore,? the Bush aide told the journalist. ?We?re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you?re studying that reality ? judiciously, as you will ? we?ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that?s how things will sort out. We?re history?s actors ? and you, all of you, will be left to study what we do.?

Frighteningly arrogant and ignorant.

Many long dead "empires" undoubtedly felt the same way.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Mag: Conservatives want 'incompetent' Condoleezza Rice transferred to advisory role
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Mag_C...incompetent_Condoleezza_Rice_0725.html
Claiming that President Bush's foreign policy agenda has been "hijacked," some prominent conservatives want the "incompetent" Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice transferred to an advisory role, according to an article in a conservative magazine, RAW STORY has found.

"Conservative national security allies of President Bush are in revolt against Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, saying that she is incompetent and has reversed the administration?s national security and foreign policy agenda," reports Insight Magazine.

Excerpts from the article:
#

The conservatives, who include Newt Gingrich, Richard Perle and leading current and former members of the Pentagon and National Security Council, have urged the president to transfer Miss Rice out of the State Department and to an advisory role. They said Miss Rice, stemming from her lack of understanding of the Middle East, has misled the president on Iran and the Arab-Israeli conflict.

"The president has yet to understand that people make policy and not the other way around," a senior national security policy analyst said. "Unlike [former Secretary of State Colin] Powell, Condi is loyal to the president. She is just incompetent on most foreign policy issues."

The criticism of Miss Rice has been intense and comes from a range of Republican loyalists, including current and former aides in the Defense Department and the office of Vice President Dick Cheney. They have warned that Iran has been exploiting Miss Rice's inexperience and incompetence to accelerate its nuclear weapons program. They expect a collapse of her policy over the next few months.

"We are sending signals today that no matter how much you provoke us, no matter how viciously you describe things in public, no matter how many things you're doing with missiles and nuclear weapons, the most you'll get out of us is talk," former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said.

Aww...the poor widdle war mongers aren't happy with Dr. Lies.

More bombs! More bullets! More blood!



<insert Dean scream.mp3 here>
 

DanceMan

Senior member
Jan 26, 2001
474
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Mag: Conservatives want 'incompetent' Condoleezza Rice transferred to advisory role
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Mag_C...incompetent_Condoleezza_Rice_0725.html
Claiming that President Bush's foreign policy agenda has been "hijacked," some prominent conservatives want the "incompetent" Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice transferred to an advisory role, according to an article in a conservative magazine, RAW STORY has found.

Hijacked, my ass. What the heck was it in the first place? If she's more hard-line than Powell was, and Powell was not as loyal, at what point was the foreign policy hijacked?

This is nothing more than the Frat Boy pinning the blame for his failures on somebody else.


The conservatives, who include Newt Gingrich, Richard Perle and leading current and former members of the Pentagon and National Security Council, have urged the president to transfer Miss Rice out of the State Department and to an advisory role. They said Miss Rice, stemming from her lack of understanding of the Middle East, has misled the president on Iran and the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Man, what two-timing backstabbers. I thought the reason was that she was promoted into Secretary of State was the great job she did as National Security Advisor. So, if they have a problem with her incompetent now, why then was nothing said at her confirmation?
(Note: I'm not defending Rice, because to a certain extent I think she is incompetent, but no more so than President himself)

There's no way that Condi would take an avisory role -- she would have to resign. It would be seen as a demotion.

"The president has yet to understand that people make policy and not the other way around," a senior national security policy analyst said. "Unlike [former Secretary of State Colin] Powell, Condi is loyal to the president. She is just incompetent on most foreign policy issues."

And, this is what the neocons don't yet quite understand about Bush -- you can be incompetet supreme, but so long as you're loyal, that's all that counts. You would think they would understand that now, given Rumsfeld, Cheney at al, but why now ask for accountability? Oh yes, it's not the neocon policy at fault -- it's the people! :disgust:

Eventually, I think they will be able to pin this on Condi. They might even get her to take the blame for Iraq. The interesting thing is that there's little Condi can do about it. Working for Bush is not only a exercise in frustration, but it makes a person toxic -- nobody wants to have anything to do with you. You see that time and time again with former Bush staff and appointees. Condi will be just another scapegoat. Not even the NFL will want to touch her after this!

<insert Dean scream.mp3 here>

I'm having a hard time hearing it over the collective scream of the American people...

 

Termagant

Senior member
Mar 10, 2006
765
0
0
They said Miss Rice, stemming from her lack of understanding of the Middle East, has misled the president on Iran and the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Hahaha maybe we need someone who really understands Iran and Israel, like Chalabi or Pearle. They would never mislead Bush.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
I do find it intriguing that Bush foreign policy has been a disaster since Bush came to office. The list of excuses:

1) Just give it time and everything will work out.

2) Who knew?

3) The UN should solve this problem.

4) We had to do something. It's not like the UN can solve this problem.

5) It's that turncoat, lilly-waisted, limp-wristed dove Powell. Clearly, he doesn't understand diplomacy and the US role in the world.

6) It's that sycophant, egghead Rice with her schoolgirl crush on Bush. Clearly, she doesn't understand diplomacy and the US role in the world.
 

strummer

Senior member
Feb 1, 2006
208
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
I think military action is inevitable and warranted against both Syria and Iran. No boots on the ground, mind you. We can effectively decimate an army and a government from the air just fine. Isreal can do Syria and we'll do Iran. If their proxy armies attack us or our interests, we hit back 3x as hard.


You are delusional. One Iranian Silkworm missile (or their homegrown knockoff) fired at a tanker in the Strait of Hormuz, and we have $10 / gallon gasoline. Not just here but in every single oil exporting nation in the world. Think the Chinese and all the other Pacific rim nations holding our debt would be happy with that? 40% of the world's oil travels through that area, and a single missile would be enough for insurance carriers to pull their maritime coverage. No coverage - no transport. It could concievably cause a world-wide depression.

This is not a game of Risk. Striking Iran means putting 150 - 200 thousand pairs of boots on the ground in the approaches to the Straits alone. That doesn't even account for getting to Tehran or the reactor sites which are hundreds of miles away from that area. And besides that - striking Iran in any form essentially sends Iraq down the sh1tter for good. The fatwahs ordering jihad against American troops in Baghdad and elsewhere in Iraq would be issued before the bombing debris settled to earth.

 

strummer

Senior member
Feb 1, 2006
208
0
0
Originally posted by: Termagant
Hahaha I don't see why you're so surprised. The American people will easily go along with bombing Iran as long as the situation is right. A few terrorist attacks linked back to Iran and we should be good to go.

The belief earlier stated that the US is in a clash of cultures, aka WW 3/4 depending if you count the Cold War, resonates with alot of Americans and they are prepared to fight for the long haul. The low approval of the Iraq War is due to the bad execution by a president who often seems, well, delusional.

We can cut through Iran's air force and air defenses with stealth aircraft, then bomb whatever we please. Iraq, Afghanistan, the Central Asian Rental Republics, Diego Garcia, and four aircraft carriers provide the airbases on all sides. It all works out so nicely.

Isreal can beat down Syria if it tries to do anything, and between Patriots and Arrow 2, Israel should be rather safe from Iran's missiles. Now that Israel is severely weakening Hezbollah and hopefully soon Hamas as well, they can worry less about terrorist reprisals.

The only question is the timing. This must be done before Iran has nukes, but Bush has low credibility. His successor may have a good window to take care of the situation. A good Republican and the light is green. With a Democrat the whole thing is up in the air. But anyone can be persuaded.



You are out of your freakin' mind.

Enlist if you are so gung ho for more war.
 

strummer

Senior member
Feb 1, 2006
208
0
0
Originally posted by: Doboji
Originally posted by: conjur
Kristol Suggests People of Iran Would Embrace U.S. Attack, Triggering Regime Change
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/07/19/kristol-iran/
This morning on Fox, Bill Kristol continued to escalate his calls for war against Iran, stating, ?We can try diplomacy. I?m not very hopeful about that. We have to be ready to use force.? Kristol claimed the people of Iran would embrace ?the right use of targeted military force.? He added that military force could ?trigger changes in Iran,? causing them to embrace regime change. Watch it.

Kristol?s argument is a regurgitation of what he argued would result from the Iraq war. This is what wrote on the pages of the Weekly Standard in the days leading up to the Iraq war:
We are tempted to comment, in these last days before the war, on the U.N., and the French, and the Democrats. But the war itself will clarify who was right and who was wrong about weapons of mass destruction. It will reveal the aspirations of the people of Iraq, and expose the truth about Saddam?s regime. ? History and reality are about to weigh in, and we are inclined simply to let them render their verdicts.

If at first you don?t succeed, try and try again.

Transcript:
KRISTOL: We have to be ready to use military force against Iran, if it comes to that. Think what this crisis would be like given what we now know about the Islamic Republic of Iran, its regime, its recklessness, its close, close ties to terrorist groups. Think what the world wore would be like with an Iran with nuclear weapons. This is a very interesting moment in that respect. You know? We are in a way lucky that Iran has revealed its aggression, its recklessness, its terror ties before they succeeded in becoming a nuclear power. We have to stop them from getting nuclear weapons. We can try diplomacy. I am not hopeful about that. We have to be ready to use force.

QUESTION: You know, the down side, though, you know very well, to all of that being that we?re involved in Iraq and Afganistan. Also that Iran is much different than Iraq. It?s huge and more formidable.

KRISTOL: It is, but also the Iranian people dislike their regime. I think they would be ? the right use of targeted military force ? but especially if political pressure before we use military force ? could cause them to reconsider whether they really want to have this regime in power. There are even moderates ? they are not wonderful people ? but people in the government itself who are probably nervous about Ahmadinejad?s recklessness.

This is why standing up to Iran right now is so important. They?re overreached. They and Hezbollah have recklessly overreached. They got cocky. This is the moment to set them back. I think a setback to Hezbollah could trigger changes in Iran. People can say, wait a second, what is Ahmadinejad doing to us. We?re alone. The Arab world is even against us. The Muslim world is against us. Let?s reconsider this reckless path that we?re on.

Kristol and Ledeen have been soaking their panties with glee over the fighting between Israel and Lebanon. They're champing at the bit to really engage in a full-fledged World War III. These "intellectuals" have been playing a maniacal game of Risk ever since their academic days and have never worn a uniform, much less set foot on a battlefield. They want to establish Israel as a beacon in the Middle East and establish US hegemony over the oil in the region.

These people are literally INSANE and yet they still wield an awful lot of control over US foreign policy due to Cheney's tentacles of influence in every key Cabinet and dept.

Chris Matthews said it best on Hardball tonight. We bomb Iran, and there are 130,000 hostages sitting in Iraq wearing American uniforms.

Fine... let's pull out of Iraq... and nuke both Iraq and Iran until there's a nice smooth sheet of glass covering every inch of those savage ass countries...

and no I'm not being sarcastic



That's a 100 million people you're talking about vaporizing. Interesting that you have a Christ reference in your sig.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,130
5,658
126
Bush already brought regime change once to Iran and that didn't work out too well. Bush, for the sake of the US, needs to start acting like the lame duck President he is.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From Starbuck1975-

Now in a perfect world, we would be able to engage these nations through diplomacy...but such a mindset assumes that all parties involved are rational actors...

I'm sure that the rational parties on the other side view the Current US Admin in the same light... much as George Will does.

Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of all of this is that anybody grants the Admin and their sycophants any credibility at all- even with the demonstrable exaggerations and outright lies, the will to believe remains unshaken. It's apparently some as yet un-named form of mass hypnotism and hysteria, a form of denial so strongly rooted that it's almost impossible to overcome... Reminds me sadly of Jonestown and the Branch Davidians... except the likely outcome won't be mass suicide, but rather the Orwellian state of perpetual war and accompanying doublespeak...

I have often thought it very charitable (not to say hopelessly naïve) of many intelligent and insightful commentators, many of whom are critical of the Bush administration, to take the Bush administrations talking points of "Democratization of the Middle East" at face value. From the neocon track record it is evident the Bush administration is purposefully creating creating a string of failed states rather than strong vital democratically ruled Arab (or Persian) nations. Iraq, Afghanistan are busted and now they are working on Gaza and Lebanon (quick ship more bombs). Syria and Iran have been in the Bush administrations sights all along and are next up for the "treatment".

If the planned redeployment of US troops in Iraq to Baghdad is part of freeing up troops to attack Iran/Syria...



 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: strummer
Originally posted by: alchemize
I think military action is inevitable and warranted against both Syria and Iran. No boots on the ground, mind you. We can effectively decimate an army and a government from the air just fine. Isreal can do Syria and we'll do Iran. If their proxy armies attack us or our interests, we hit back 3x as hard.


You are delusional. One Iranian Silkworm missile (or their homegrown knockoff) fired at a tanker in the Strait of Hormuz, and we have $10 / gallon gasoline. Not just here but in every single oil exporting nation in the world. Think the Chinese and all the other Pacific rim nations holding our debt would be happy with that? 40% of the world's oil travels through that area, and a single missile would be enough for insurance carriers to pull their maritime coverage. No coverage - no transport. It could concievably cause a world-wide depression.

This is not a game of Risk. Striking Iran means putting 150 - 200 thousand pairs of boots on the ground in the approaches to the Straits alone. That doesn't even account for getting to Tehran or the reactor sites which are hundreds of miles away from that area. And besides that - striking Iran in any form essentially sends Iraq down the sh1tter for good. The fatwahs ordering jihad against American troops in Baghdad and elsewhere in Iraq would be issued before the bombing debris settled to earth.

I personally don't think we should be economically held hostage. If carter didn't have ants testicles, maybe Iran wouldn't be doing this again, this time with black goo.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: strummer
Originally posted by: alchemize
I think military action is inevitable and warranted against both Syria and Iran. No boots on the ground, mind you. We can effectively decimate an army and a government from the air just fine. Isreal can do Syria and we'll do Iran. If their proxy armies attack us or our interests, we hit back 3x as hard.


You are delusional. One Iranian Silkworm missile (or their homegrown knockoff) fired at a tanker in the Strait of Hormuz, and we have $10 / gallon gasoline. Not just here but in every single oil exporting nation in the world. Think the Chinese and all the other Pacific rim nations holding our debt would be happy with that? 40% of the world's oil travels through that area, and a single missile would be enough for insurance carriers to pull their maritime coverage. No coverage - no transport. It could concievably cause a world-wide depression.

This is not a game of Risk. Striking Iran means putting 150 - 200 thousand pairs of boots on the ground in the approaches to the Straits alone. That doesn't even account for getting to Tehran or the reactor sites which are hundreds of miles away from that area. And besides that - striking Iran in any form essentially sends Iraq down the sh1tter for good. The fatwahs ordering jihad against American troops in Baghdad and elsewhere in Iraq would be issued before the bombing debris settled to earth.

I personally don't think we should be economically held hostage. If carter didn't have ants testicles, maybe Iran wouldn't be doing this again, this time with black goo.


Erm have you forgotten about Operation Ajax already? The Black Goo happens to be _their_ Black Goo that they are entitled to sell to whomever they want (obviously, according to the US, as long as the whole transaction gets the US Approved Free Trade According To US Interests Only Holy Righteousness Stamp). It is called Free Trade right? lmao at "free trade". The Game is called "US Full Spectrum Dominance".

 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Why do you liberal wingnuts think this is an American issue? Jesus these two countries have been going at it looooong before the founders of our country were a twinkle in their daddy's eye...lets not make this a Republican/Democrat issue, ok?
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
86
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Why do you liberal wingnuts think this is an American issue? Jesus these two countries have been going at it looooong before the founders of our country were a twinkle in their daddy's eye...lets not make this a Republican/Democrat issue, ok?
Why do you neocon wingnuts think we need to continue the same "nuke 'em if they don't follow the same tired crap from monsters like the Bushwhackos and their media mouthpieces like Krystol when their sorry, ego driven ideas already been shown to be an absolute failure time and again? :roll:
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |