Fallout 3 will stink like Deus Ex 2.

[Dethfrumbelo]

Additionally, RPGs should at least present the player with a few different ways or alternate paths to solve a given problem/mission, either through peaceful means, conversation, trickery, stealth, violence, what have you. The more the better.

Games like Oblivion only allow for one solution: Kill. Oblivion is a 1st-person action game with swords and spells, and under that definition, it accounts for itself quite well. An RPG it is not, however. The Bethesda devs keep insisting it is an RPG, and a 'deep' and 'complex' one at that. You make console action games now, which is perfectly fine, but let's stop pretending it's something it's not.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
Roleplaying is not about stats. It's about the ability to make choices and have the gameworld and/or story altered as a result of those choices. It also helps to have a well-written and imaginative plot and well-developed characters.

That's YOUR definition. You can certainly have a gameworld or story being alterable by the characters without it being RPG.

RPG means that it's not the player skill that determines the strength or skill of the character, but the experience or progression of the character in-game.

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

Originally posted by: Looney

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
Roleplaying is not about stats. It's about the ability to make choices and have the gameworld and/or story altered as a result of those choices. It also helps to have a well-written and imaginative plot and well-developed characters.

That's YOUR definition. You can certainly have a gameworld or story being alterable by the characters without it being RPG.

RPG means that it's not the player skill that determines the strength or skill of the character, but the experience or progression of the character in-game.

That's it? Then I guess I really don't like RPGs after all. By that definition I guess that means NOLF 2 is an RPG.

 

[Mr Smith]

Well I'm so starved of RPGs these days that I've got my fingers crossed that this will be good. I still have installed and still play to this day Deus Ex, SS2, Fallout 1 and 2, BG 1, 2 and ToB, Planescape, IWD and probably a few more I'm forgetting so I'm definitely not a fan of dumbing down games but I guess you just have to accept that this is the way the industry is going.

I thought Oblivion was decent enough, sure it had tons of flaws but I still got more than my moneys worth out of it so even if it does end up as Oblivion with guns, while I'll be disappointed, I will stick pick this up on release day.

People will undoubtedly backlash against Fallout 3 but I'd still rather have a post apocalyptic Oblivion than no Fallout 3 at all.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
Additionally, RPGs should at least present the player with a few different ways or alternate paths to solve a given problem/mission, either through peaceful means, conversation, trickery, stealth, violence, what have you. The more the better.

Games like Oblivion only allow for one solution: Kill. Oblivion is a 1st-person action game with swords and spells, and under that definition, it accounts for itself quite well. An RPG it is not, however. The Bethesda devs keep insisting it is an RPG, and a 'deep' and 'complex' one at that. You make console action games now, which is perfectly fine, but let's stop pretending it's something it's not.

UNtrue or there would be no point to developing stealth in Oblivion ... Oblivion IS RPG --except to D&D snobs.

-did you even play it for more than a few hours?

'Dark Brother' SQ is among the best writing of ANY game ... and it is longer than many FPSes ... there is "depth" in Oblivion ...
.... perhaps NoLF is more your style

 

[fierydemise]

Originally posted by: apoppin
UNtrue or there would be no point to developing stealth in Oblivion ... Oblivion IS RPG --except to D&D snobs.

-did you even play it for more than a few hours?

'Dark Brother' SQ is among the best writing of ANY game ... and it is longer than many FPSes ... there is "depth" in Oblivion ...
.... perhaps NoLF is more your style

As someone who played a pure stealth character for more then 100 hours I have to disagree, stealth rarely gives the player an alternative way to complete a mission. I wouldn't consider myself a "D&D snob" as I've never played D&D in my life and I wouldn't consider it an RPG. The DB quest line is a lot of fun (without a doubt the best part of Oblivion) but saying that has more depth then most FPSs is a bit of a hollow victory, congrats being the skinniest guy at fat camp.

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
Additionally, RPGs should at least present the player with a few different ways or alternate paths to solve a given problem/mission, either through peaceful means, conversation, trickery, stealth, violence, what have you. The more the better.

Games like Oblivion only allow for one solution: Kill. Oblivion is a 1st-person action game with swords and spells, and under that definition, it accounts for itself quite well. An RPG it is not, however. The Bethesda devs keep insisting it is an RPG, and a 'deep' and 'complex' one at that. You make console action games now, which is perfectly fine, but let's stop pretending it's something it's not.

UNtrue or there would be no point to developing stealth in Oblivion ... Oblivion IS RPG --except to D&D snobs.

-did you even play it for more than a few hours?

'Dark Brother' SQ is among the best writing of ANY game ... and it is longer than many FPSes ... there is "depth" in Oblivion ...
.... perhaps NoLF is more your style

60+ hours the 1st time, 20+ hours into Shivering Isles, all the way to completion.

Also played and finished Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind. So...

The TES series from the start has always lacked decent writing and characters, but the gameplay was simplified markedly for Oblivion.

Some people like it, some don't. No two people have to view things the same way. For you, it's a great game, for me, not so much.

I also thought the NWN OC was crap, only partially redeemed by HotU. NWN2 was mediocre as well, IMO. I don't like the D&D rules at all. I find them lacking flexibility and realism, so I don't think D&D snob comes into it.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Shadowknight

You can only do so much with a console. Why cripple a good computer game so you can "double dip" and sell to the console crowd?

Because the console market is bigger than the PC market and they are no fools about money

 

[Whitecloak]

apooping obviously knows more about rpgs than anyone else here.

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: destrekor
why is everyone against change so much. Ever heard of something actually being better with change? It's happened.

What game franchises got better from 2D to 3D?

Final Fantasy 6 -> 7: Worse
Zelda Link to the Past -> Orcarina of Time: Even
Super Metroid -> Metroid Prime: Worse
Super Mario World -> Mario 64: Worse

It seems crazy, especially since they're so hell-bent on revamping everything. Could it work? Sure. Will it work? We'll see soon enough. I just don't see the point in taking something that is regarded as one of the best gaming franchises out there and messing with it. Why mess with success?

Your opinion maybe, but other than metroid prime, those game are considered by many to be some of the best games ever.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
I also thought the NWN OC was crap, only partially redeemed by HotU. NWN2 was mediocre as well, IMO. I don't like the D&D rules at all. I find them lacking flexibility and realism, so I don't think D&D snob comes into it.

Yes, because when I'm playing a level 14 Elf wielding the "Sword of Ass-Whooping" while facing down gremlins and dragons....realism is the first thing I demand!

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: apoppin
you mean the "RPG snobs" ... the 'elitists' who think D&D is the pinnacle of gaming ... well, it isn't

If you are [fix]"cRPG snobs" or 'cRPG elitists' [/fix] you usually have a very low regard of D&D.

http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=18961

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
I also thought the NWN OC was crap, only partially redeemed by HotU. NWN2 was mediocre as well, IMO. I don't like the D&D rules at all. I find them lacking flexibility and realism, so I don't think D&D snob comes into it.

Yes, because when I'm playing a level 14 Elf wielding the "Sword of Ass-Whooping" while facing down gremlins and dragons....realism is the first thing I demand!

Yes, yes. Nice catch. *Applause*

By the way, you wouldn't happen to be an employee of Bethesda or an affiliated marketing/advertising firm, would you?

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: Mr Smith
People will undoubtedly backlash against Fallout 3 but I'd still rather have a post apocalyptic Oblivion than no [/b]Fallout[/b] 3 at all.

This is THE problem I am having with this entire thing:

What does "post apocalyptic Oblivion" have to do with fallout?

Why, in order to make a "post apocalyptic Oblivion" or a post apocalyptic ActionRPG the fallout franchise need to be butchered?

Why not just making a post apocalyptic Oblivion, period!

This is the equivalent of Valve making HL3 TB (not exactly the same since Valve is the original owner of the franchise, it would be more like what if Valve go under and blizzard for some reason decide to buy the franchise and make it a MMO or something of the sort).

Why is 'post apocalyptic' == fallout? Look at STALKER.

If Bethesda doesn't want to make fallout3 a fallout game then why spend all that money on purchasing the rights?

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Your opinion maybe, but other than metroid prime, those game are considered by many to be some of the best games ever.

Well, it's in human nature to be wrong sometimes. They'll live.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
I also thought the NWN OC was crap, only partially redeemed by HotU. NWN2 was mediocre as well, IMO. I don't like the D&D rules at all. I find them lacking flexibility and realism, so I don't think D&D snob comes into it.

Yes, because when I'm playing a level 14 Elf wielding the "Sword of Ass-Whooping" while facing down gremlins and dragons....realism is the first thing I demand!

Yes, yes. Nice catch. *Applause*

By the way, you wouldn't happen to be an employee of Bethesda or an affiliated marketing/advertising firm, would you?

Nope. Just humored at all the belly-aching over a game more than a year away that we know next to nothing about beyond conjectures.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: Queasy
Nope. Just humored at all the belly-aching over a game more than a year away that we know next to nothing about beyond conjectures.

I think I can speak to that. People get really defensive over their memories. For a lot of us, Fallout and Fallout 2 were great games from our past. Almost perfect. Fallout 2 is in my top five list for best video game ever. It's more than just a game, it's a part of my childhood.

The idea of someone radically changing the series is painful. It would be like moving away from your hometown and going back only to find that nothing is the same anymore. I'm sure it sounds stupid to get this worked up over a game, but they are experiences from our past and they are to be cherished.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: kobymu

Originally posted by: apoppin
you mean the "RPG snobs" ... the 'elitists' who think D&D is the pinnacle of gaming ... well, it isn't

If you are [fix]"cRPG snobs" or 'cRPG elitists' [/fix] you usually have a very low regard of D&D.

http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=18961

D&D can be awesome ... but it appears to be poorly implemented in the last few years ... at least in mainstream RPGs ... if the game isn't really polished upon release - like NWN2 - it tends to be a disaster

Bethesda is logically going where the money is ... who cares to make a perfected D&D game that will flop financially?

i guess you will need to look for great D&D RPGs in the indie games ... 800x600 should be really nostalgic for you

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

The D&D system was created for PnP and it simply doesn't translate all too well to the computer. In PnP, the DM has the flexibility to fill in the gaps with his own custom rules and everyone just uses their imagination for the rest.

Limitations with D&D in a strict translation to CRPGs:

Maps are effectively 2D (tabletop)
Time is turn-based
Difficult to mesh with a physics system (in large part because of the above 2 reasons)

Even Feargus has said in several interviews that D&D rules are the most difficult to work with, probably because the license (WotC) demands strict adherence. It really limits what they can do with the game.

G.U.R.P.S. is more flexible, with rules better suited for a CRPG, as seen in Fallout, which uses a variant of this ruleset. The game mechanics are more believable and realistic than those found in D&D.

VtMB used White Wolf's ruleset to an extent, but they kept the combat action-oriented, and that worked fairly well.

It's highly unlikely that FO3 will be turn-based like the previous Fallouts. In order to take full advantage of the physics engine, it needs to be realtime, and I think the majority of gamers (especially consolers) would hate TB, frankly.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: Queasy
Nope. Just humored at all the belly-aching over a game more than a year away that we know next to nothing about beyond conjectures.

I think I can speak to that. People get really defensive over their memories. For a lot of us, Fallout and Fallout 2 were great games from our past. Almost perfect. Fallout 2 is in my top five list for best video game ever. It's more than just a game, it's a part of my childhood.

The idea of someone radically changing the series is painful. It would be like moving away from your hometown and going back only to find that nothing is the same anymore. I'm sure it sounds stupid to get this worked up over a game, but they are experiences from our past and they are to be cherished.

Fallout 1 & Fallout 2 are two of my all-time favorite games as well. I just realize that the guys that made them aren't around anymore (or at least don't hold the license to the game). I'm just not going to get upset over Bethesda trying something different with the series...especially when we don't know if it will be successful or not yet. If they produce a crap game then they'll rightly deserve any crap thrown at them. We just don't know at this point.

 

[Skacer]

Originally posted by: kobymu
If Bethesda doesn't want to make fallout3 a fallout game then why spend all that money on purchasing the rights?

I agree with you, that's been my point all along. There is no requirement to purchase an IP just to make something vaguely similar. They could have made Elder Scrolls V: Armageddon.

But I'm still hopeful, it's kind of sad, I want a new Fallout game so bad that I can't really be negative.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Queasy
Fallout 1 & Fallout 2 are two of my all-time favorite games as well. I just realize that the guys that made them aren't around anymore.

The key fallout 1 and 2 personnel went on to found Troika Games and produced the best FPS ever made, Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines (after you apply the latest official and community patches, bug city!). While I have never played Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (also by Troika), I hear it is an excellent game in the spirit of fallout.

If any of you have not played Vampire: Bloodlines, it is on steam and it is a highly recommended FPS / pseudoActionRPG.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Why, in order to make a "post apocalyptic Oblivion" or a post apocalyptic ActionRPG the fallout franchise need to be butchered?

I think it is premature at this point to say the Bethesda will butcher the Fallout franchise. They purchased the rights to the Fallout IP because it is a recognized and well respected RPG series, with an established mythos and storyline...one that provides the developers with a well defined canvas from which to develop a new game.

Any post apocalypse game is going to borrow heavily from established media on the subject...hell, Fallout borrows heavily from Mad Max for some of its art and character designs...if Bethesda were to create a post-apocalypse America game, it would automatically draw comparisons to Fallout...so why not just make another Fallout game.

Stalker is a nuclear wasteland game, but not really an apocalypse game...and works simply because the developers set the game in Chernobyl.

That being said, I never played through the entirety of either Fallout 1 or Fallout 2...in terms of the isometric RPGs from that time period, I enjoyed the Baldur's gate series and Planescape Torment more...not because Baldur's gate had a superior storyline, but because I enjoyed the gameplay far better...in Planescape's case, the storyline and universe was probably as good if not better than Fallout's, but the pace of the gameplay I found far more engaging.

Quite simply, I wanted to enjoy the Fallout games...but felt the gameplay was lacking...the same can be said for Arcanum...turn based RPGs just don't do it for me...and Black Isle and other developers have proven that you can build very deep RPG experiences without stalling the gameplay with a turn based system.

I am really looking forward to Bethesda's take on Fallout...sure the purists are crying foul, but isometric RPGs have a been there, done that feel to them...an immersive FPS view of the Fallout world could prove rather entertaining and enjoyable.

The Elder Scrolls series, particularly Morrowind and Oblivion, demonstrate that Bethesda is quite capable of developing a rich RPG character creation environment...it seems logical to me that all of the stats and feats from the Fallout games will cross over very nicely into an Oblivion based engine.

Similarly, Morrowind and Oblivion had a very complex and diverse quest based world...the main complaint from both those games is that Bethesda only uses a handful of voice actors for NPCs.

If Bethesda mirrors the depth and wealth of voice actors and dialogue choices from the Fallout series, I think the game will translate just fine.

At the end of the day, Bethesda is developing the next Fallout game...I for one would rather spend my time looking forward to what they create than complain that Fallout 3 will not mirror the antiquated and limited form of gameplay of its first two installments.

 

[Izzo]

Just thought I'd throw my $0.02 in a rambled mismash of thoughts:.

I loved Fallout 1, 2, and Tactics. Each one makes my list for favorite games ever. I played Oblivion and enjoyed it for the most part. But I can't understand why FO3 needs to be like Oblivion. (I know we don't know what FO3 is going to be like, but the info from the devs point to FPS style game like Oblivion).

That's sad, IMO, because there doesn't seem to be much variety in games anymore. I don't see how FPS is an improvement on FO series. Games like X-Com and Fallout tactics were successful because they were fun to play the way they were. They didn't need to be gutted and repackaged as an FPS, or as the FO community likes to throw around: Oblivion with guns. I don't know how Beth can adequately incorporate the SPECIAL system into a FPS style game, other than making your cross-hairs bounce around and randomly missing your enemy. We'll see what they come up with.

In my humble opinon, it seems like Beth was pretty happy with Oblivion and were smitten with their ability to produce a game that had an open and immense environment for you to explore. But considering that nearly all of the landscapes were the same, and that you can call something a fort or a cave or whatever (I mean they were just dunegeons with different floorplans) --- that type of stuff didn't add anything to the game for me. Don't waste all of that time on recycled dungeon after recycled dungeon. Focus more on gameplay, good story lines, dialogue, etc, all of which Oblivion fell short on.

I guess my expecations on what the game will be (0 being awful and 10 being worst game ever) is 6 out of 10. It will probably be a fun game to play and they will probably create a decent post-apoc atmosphere. But I think the gameplay will be too different that I will be disappointed that it doesn't rekindle the memories of the FO predecessors. I guess I'm in the camp of "if you want to make an Oblivion style game in a post-apoc setting, then go ahead and make it. But don't call it Fallout if you aren't going to stay true to the gameplay and essence of FO."

But we'll see come Fall 2008.

edit: just wanted to add that I thought Tactics had the best combat of the FO series (IMO of course). I liked the CTB system a lot and it made the game go faster. (Although the regular TB system in Tactics was horribly slow).

 

[Canai]

I think Bethesda will do a great job with it. I mean, who better to develop it? What better FPS RPGs have come out recently other than Oblivion?