Fallout 3 will stink like Deus Ex 2.

[kobymu]

The Elder Scrolls series, particularly Morrowind and Oblivion, demonstrate that Bethesda is quite capable of developing a rich RPG character creation environment...

Umm... S.P.E.C.I.A.L. isn?t a character creation environment S.P.E.C.I.A.L. is a rule-set, it is one of the most important (if not the only) underlined AND surface level fundamental aspects of gameplay, it is the base structure of the gameplay if you will, and S.P.E.C.I.A.L. is a rule-set that resolve combat in turns.

...it seems logical to me that all of the stats and feats from the Fallout games will cross over very nicely into an Oblivion based engine.

There isn?t a any game company out there that can magically turn the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. rule-set and make it if realtime, S.P.E.C.I.A.L. is designed from the ground up as a turn based gamepley system.

That?s like saying that because Bethesda is a good automobile company it can the take sport car engine and make a great truck with it.

Let me illustrate: lets review the perks for example (now lets use only the perks from fallout 1, sifting through the entire fallout will be a just a waste of our time).

http://www.falloutvault.com/wiki/Fallout_1_Perks (total: 53)
http://duckandcover.cx/fallout/perks/index.php (same thing different layout)
http://www.falloutvault.com/wiki/Categoryerks (total: 181)

Now let's list the perks that don?t work in realtime gameplay:

Action Boy - WTH?!? How the hell a game can be considered a fallout game without Action Boy it like one of fallout symbols.

Bonus Rate of Fire ? out of the character hand and into the player.

Dodger ? same as Bonus Rate of Fire.

Earlier Sequence - same as Bonus Rate of Fire.

Heave Ho! - same as Bonus Rate of Fire yet again.

Pathfinder ? another one bits the dust.

Quick Pockets ? in real time?!

Scout ? in real time travel? how will Bethesda implement this? Are they going to artificially limit your LOD or viewing distance?

Sharpshooter ? auto aim ?

Sniper ? ohh man, first Action Boy and then this .

Fallout3 is going to suck as a Fallout game

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: fierydemise

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I loved the atmosphere of the original Fallout games, but hated the top down perspective and turn based combat.

Keep the dialogue, atmosphere and violent nature of the Fallout world, and ditch the static turn based gameplay for a more dynamic environment.

I will be quite happy if Bethseda delivers an Oblivion like gameplay experience in the Fallout universe.

Thing is a lot of the RPG fans who really like Fallout don't want oblivion like gameplay, they feel it is shallow and watered down, I think this review sums it up pretty nicely.

you mean the "RPG snobs" ... the 'elitists' who think D&D is the pinnacle of gaming ... well, it isn't

Most of these games take hours to unfold and take forever to get interesting. If there are any flaws or the game is "rushed', it destroys the immersion. And there are lost of us who like to just kill things and get right into the action.

i am *hoping* it is more like Oblivion than NWN2. There hasn't been a good module or expansion for NWN2 in over 7 months ... otOh within 6 months, Oblivion was completely *perfected* by its fans and many dozens of hours of excellent plugins were created for it.

Sounds like you're the snob honestly... there are people who like that kind of gameplay because they like it, not because they are elitist or snobbish.:roll:

 

[apoppin]

sounds like you only read one of my posts and missed the context of the conversation completely

as usual

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: apoppin
sounds like you only read one of my posts and missed the context of the conversation completely

as usual

Check your hearing.

 

[apoppin]

your opinion

thanks ... now i am free to disregard it again

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: Pugnate
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6...tag=latestnews;title;0

Game Informer posted the cover for its July issue, which confirms that Fallout 3 will indeed arrive on the PC, PS3, and 360 in 2008. Sources close to Bethesda said the information on the GI cover was accurate, but would not go into further details.

The GI cover also added ammo to the theory that Fallout 3 would be a major departure from previous PC Fallouts and the widely despised console spin-off, Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel. The magazine claims that Bethesda's goal has been to "reinvent" the RPG, which was originally a top-down turn-based title, into an all-new "open-ended RPG." Both Fallout and Fallout 2 offered open-ended gameplay with many side quests inside a larger, linear storyline--as did Oblivion.

This is f!%!% bull@$%t. Where have I smelled this crap before? Oh yea, Deus Ex 2.

Oh and reinvent sounds like, we can't design anything other than what we are used to.

Fallout is a top-down turn based RPG, nothing like Oblivion.

It may seem like I am overreacting, but I've stopped giving console developers the benefit of the doubt.

Honestly, what I liked about fallout was the open ended d&d style gameplay and the atmosphere. I don't give a crap about the view point, heck I'm not even concerned about it being turnbased
Oblivion was a damn fine game, and if they take the fallout theme and put it into that mold, with better AI and a tighter story, I'd love it. Oblivion's the closest game to recapturing the glory of fallout in years, and I hope that's the path fallout 3 takes.
Oh, they better not put in that auto leveling thing oblivion had.
Judging by oblivion though, I doubt their ability to give fallout the story, humor, and character it deserves. Oblivion was nearly a very pretty single player mmorpg, which is ok (I've loved games like that in the past, shadowrun on the genesis for example, but for a game to make me want to play it end to end it has to have a tight story and a cohesive world.

brotherhood of steel was on console? i played it on PC..

Different brotherhood of steel. The pc one was a decent tactics game, the console one was a crappy diablo style hack and slash that had nothing in common. They did the same thing to baldur's gate on the console. They made absolutely no effort with the fallout console game though, it was just baldur's gate (the console version) with a sci-fi motif instead of a fantasy. Even close range combat still featured prominently, rather than adapting the dominating presence that long range weapons should have had.

BTW, I don't consider fallout a party oriented game, though it was more so than oblivion. Still, fallout 1 was the best of the series and party members in that game were nearly worthless after the start. From what I recall, the only party members worth crap were dogmeat (cause he's a dog and thus usually charging the enemy while the rest of your team got blown up by that rocket launcher) and ian (smg with burst fire).

Oh, and it's a must that you can kill/loot anything in the fallout game. Oblivion half assed that and limited the looting and made the killing neigh impossible.

Action Boy - WTH?!? How the hell a game can be considered a fallout game without Action Boy it like one of fallout symbols.

Bonus Rate of Fire ? out of the character hand and into the player.

Dodger ? same as Bonus Rate of Fire.

Earlier Sequence - same as Bonus Rate of Fire.

Heave Ho! - same as Bonus Rate of Fire yet again.

Pathfinder ? another one bits the dust.

Quick Pockets ? in real time?!

Scout ? in real time travel? how will Bethesda implement this? Are they going to artificially limit your LOD or viewing distance?

Sharpshooter ? auto aim ?

Sniper ? ohh man, first Action Boy and then this .

Fallout3 is going to suck as a Fallout game

Think active turn-based rather than real time.
Action boy? Increase the amount of fatigue you can handle before having to slow down/recharge.
Bonus rate of fire - duh, just make them capable of firing faster or add multiple shots per shot
Dodger - make the person physically move faster
Earlier Sequence...heck, they can just about all be made to work in real time in someway.

 

[kobymu]

"Think active turn-based rather than real time". <-> "Dodger - make the person physically move faster"

"Action boy? Increase the amount of fatigue you can handle before having to slow down/recharge."
That's not Action boy.

Bonus rate of fire - duh, just make them capable of firing faster or add multiple shots per shot


"Earlier Sequence...heck, they can just about all be made to work in real time in someway." :light:

You are forgetting that this is only a partial list, I haven't mentioned fallout 2 perks or for that matter traits, or even skills, what is the point in having combat skills (Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons, Unarmed, Melee Weapons, and Throwing)? Who/what will determine if a shot is successful? The player (oblivion) or the character, because if it is the player it is not fallout! It would just be yet another FPS.

Fallout is a game you role-play the character (Arcanum, BG, Planescape: Torment), oblivion is a game you ARE the character (Diablo, GTA, WOW), it is not just TB, it is everything that come with it!

I mean come on, Fallout is, for a LOT of people, a game that does NOT need to be reinvented! It is near perfect the way it is! Can it be improved? Yes it can, but does it need to go over the drastic changes that Bethesda is planning for it? No, it certainly does NOT!

WHY!? Why kill the the fallout Series with a post apocalyptic FPS?

All fallout need is just some love and tenderness not major surgery.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: kobymu
"Think active turn-based rather than real time". <-> "Dodger - make the person physically move faster"

"Action boy? Increase the amount of fatigue you can handle before having to slow down/recharge."
That's not Action boy.

Bonus rate of fire - duh, just make them capable of firing faster or add multiple shots per shot


"Earlier Sequence...heck, they can just about all be made to work in real time in someway." :light:

You are forgetting that this is only a partial list, I haven't mentioned fallout 2 perks or for that matter traits, or even skills, what is the point in having combat skills (Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons, Unarmed, Melee Weapons, and Throwing)? Who/what will determine if a shot is successful? The player (oblivion) or the character, because if it is the player it is not fallout! It would just be yet another FPS.

Fallout is a game you role-play the character (Arcanum, BG, Planescape: Torment), oblivion is a game you ARE the character (Diablo, GTA, WOW), it is not just TB, it is everything that come with it!

I mean come on, Fallout is, for a LOT of people, a game that does NOT need to be reinvented! It is near perfect the way it is! Can it be improved? Yes it can, but does it need to go over the drastic changes that Bethesda is planning for it? No, it certainly does NOT!

WHY!? Why kill the the fallout Series with a post apocalyptic FPS?

All fallout need is just some love and tenderness not major surgery.

I agree.
It's not like they couldn't just start a new series of post apocalyptic FPS/RPG games if they wanted to, I just don't see the need to put the Fallout stamp on it if it's not going to be Fallout in anything but name and environment.
Leave that for someone else who wants to actually make a new Fallout, not a total conversion of Oblivion.

 

[apoppin]

Leave that for someone else who wants to actually make a new Fallout, not a total conversion of Oblivion.

since that is NOT going to happen ... ever ... i want to see what Bethesda does with it

heck i liked DE-IW ... but then i wasn't bitching that it wasn't exactly like the original

 

[Starbuck1975]

There isn?t a any game company out there that can magically turn the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. rule-set and make it if realtime, S.P.E.C.I.A.L. is designed from the ground up as a turn based gamepley system.

All of the perks you mentioned could easily translate into an Oblivion type environment.

The combat feats of the Fallout series all work in a real time environment...think Fallout Tactics...all of the feats from Fallout 1 and 2 were there, but you had the option playing Tactics either in turn based or real time mode.

In real time mode, the turn based nature of Fallout still works, but running in the background...as opposed to "you go" "I go" turned based play which, IMO, adds a layer of interface that only removes the player from what should otherwise be an immersive experience.

 

[Fox5]

You are forgetting that this is only a partial list, I haven't mentioned fallout 2 perks or for that matter traits, or even skills, what is the point in having combat skills (Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons, Unarmed, Melee Weapons, and Throwing)? Who/what will determine if a shot is successful? The player (oblivion) or the character, because if it is the player it is not fallout! It would just be yet another FPS.

You can have real time and still have skill with weapons.
Add new capabilities with the weapon/better accuracy as you level up the skill. For instance, initially the aim of a gun shouldn't be very steady (maybe they can get off one shot well, but not multiple) and leveling it up could bring it to the point where eventually the movement of the mouse and the gun are completely tied. Maybe going even higher would add auto aim.

WHY!? Why kill the the fallout Series with a post apocalyptic FPS?

After brotherhood of steel (both the pc and console versions), I'd say the series has been pretty maimed. An oblivion style rpg is a step up.

Additionally, the fallout license has gone outside of turnbased rpg before, so it's not solely an rpg series already. (and if you limit it just to fallout 1 and 2, it's not much of a series) If they can stay true to the atmosphere and story of fallout that stays at least somewhat close to its roots (a bit closer than oblivion is), I'd consider that a true fallout game that is worthy of the name. If they mess up the atmosphere and story though, then it's not fallout.

 

[incompleteunit]

Originally posted by: Fox5

You are forgetting that this is only a partial list, I haven't mentioned fallout 2 perks or for that matter traits, or even skills, what is the point in having combat skills (Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons, Unarmed, Melee Weapons, and Throwing)? Who/what will determine if a shot is successful? The player (oblivion) or the character, because if it is the player it is not fallout! It would just be yet another FPS.

You can have real time and still have skill with weapons.
Add new capabilities with the weapon/better accuracy as you level up the skill. For instance, initially the aim of a gun shouldn't be very steady (maybe they can get off one shot well, but not multiple) and leveling it up could bring it to the point where eventually the movement of the mouse and the gun are completely tied. Maybe going even higher would add auto aim.

This is exactly what Deus Ex did - worked really well. You could use a sniper rifle if you were untrained, but it was hard to line up the shot, and the huge recoil would mean extra time to line up the next one. Not to mention the fact that the damage changed as you trained in a weapon type.

I think there's lots of room for perks in a real-time system.

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: incompleteunit

Originally posted by: Fox5

You are forgetting that this is only a partial list, I haven't mentioned fallout 2 perks or for that matter traits, or even skills, what is the point in having combat skills (Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons, Unarmed, Melee Weapons, and Throwing)? Who/what will determine if a shot is successful? The player (oblivion) or the character, because if it is the player it is not fallout! It would just be yet another FPS.

You can have real time and still have skill with weapons.
Add new capabilities with the weapon/better accuracy as you level up the skill. For instance, initially the aim of a gun shouldn't be very steady (maybe they can get off one shot well, but not multiple) and leveling it up could bring it to the point where eventually the movement of the mouse and the gun are completely tied. Maybe going even higher would add auto aim.

This is exactly what Deus Ex did - worked really well. You could use a sniper rifle if you were untrained, but it was hard to line up the shot, and the huge recoil would mean extra time to line up the next one. Not to mention the fact that the damage changed as you trained in a weapon type.

I think there's lots of room for perks in a real-time system.

Well, considering that turn-based is just a simplified version of real time (with steps assigned to a pre-determined length of time rather than a continuous flow), pretty much anything that can be done in a turn-based system should be doable in real time. The exception to that would be time manipulation; a turn based system, by its very nature, allows you an infinite amount of time to do whatever you're capable of, whereas in real time, if you can't accomplish something as fast as it can be done, you've effectively 'lost' that turn. I'd say the advantage of turn-based over real time there is more evident in a strategy game over an rpg, though. I can't remember employing any strategies in fallout that couldn't either:
A. Be planned for by scouting out the area before attacking/stealthing
B. Be thought of in real time since they were obvious, like make a beeline for that cover from enemy fire or "****, he's got a rocket launcher! scramble!"

It's really only when you give a person control of multiple entities that you benefit from turn-based, and in that case you're not role playing, you're a god. Actually, this could somewhat come into play in a deus ex like game where theoretically your guy should be able to move around on his own while using nanomachines to interface and control computers/robots.

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

There isn?t a any game company out there that can magically turn the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. rule-set and make it if realtime, S.P.E.C.I.A.L. is designed from the ground up as a turn based gamepley system.

All of the perks you mentioned could easily translate into an Oblivion type environment.

The combat feats of the Fallout series all work in a real time environment...think Fallout Tactics...all of the feats from Fallout 1 and 2 were there, but you had the option playing Tactics either in turn based or real time mode.

In real time mode, the turn based nature of Fallout still works, but running in the background...as opposed to "you go" "I go" turned based play which, IMO, adds a layer of interface that only removes the player from what should otherwise be an immersive experience.

WTH!?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...:_Brotherhood_of_Steel

Combat in Fallout Tactics is more complicated than in the previous two Fallout games. Unlike those, which featured an individual turn-based system, Fallout Tactics features three modes of combat: Continuous Turn-Based (CTB), Individual Turn-Based (ITB), and Squad Turn-Based (STB). In CTB, everyone can act at the same time, and action points are regenerated at a rate based on Agility. ITB is the system used in the original games. STB is a variation of that; each turn is given to a squad. Other changes include the ability to change stance, modifiers for height, and setting sentry modes, which let characters shoot automatically in CTB upon encountering an enemy.

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: Fox5
Well, considering that turn-based is just a simplified version of real time (with steps assigned to a pre-determined length of time rather than a continuous flow), pretty much anything that can be done in a turn-based system should be doable in real time. The exception to that would be time manipulation; a turn based system, by its very nature, allows you an infinite amount of time to do whatever you're capable of, whereas in real time, if you can't accomplish something as fast as it can be done, you've effectively 'lost' that turn.

the only I disagree with in this part is the wording, TB isn?t simplified RT its abstracted RT. And I really don?t think it is simpler, quite the contrary (X-COM, Jagged Alliance, Civilization, HoMM and CHESS ) but that?s just MHO.

I'd say the advantage of turn-based over real time there is more evident in a strategy game over an rpg, ...

It's really only when you give a person control of multiple entities that you benefit from turn-based, and in that case you're not role playing, you're a god.

As I have said earlier, I distinguish between 2 kinds of role-play (In CRPG), you ARE the character (including FPSs and Oblivion), and you ROLE-PLAY the character (Fallout), if you want to role play the character TB helps you in the sense that there is a better separation between character and player, in TB you don?t DO in behalf of the character, (move, swing the sword, aim, fire, lock pick, sneak), you just tall it what to do and the character does its own thing, if it is successful or not is in the character hand not yours (Oblivion, again), and Fallout is a game you role-play the character.

 

[Fox5]

As I have said earlier, I distinguish between 2 kinds of role-play (In CRPG), you ARE the character (including FPSs and Oblivion), and you ROLE-PLAY the character (Fallout), if you want to role play the character TB helps you in the sense that there is a better separation between character and player, in TB you don?t DO in behalf of the character, (move, swing the sword, aim, fire, lock pick, sneak), you just tall it what to do and the character does its own thing, if it is successful or not is in the character hand not yours (Oblivion, again), and Fallout is a game you role-play the character.

I really don't see the distinction. All that stuff doesn't have to be blatant in your face to exist. Wouldn't a wavering hand of your character be a much more subtle interpretation of weapon skill than a % indicator? A game can be real time and first person and still limit your ability with a weapon, whether they do it fallout style (% chance to miss) or just increase difficulty of using the weapon (sluggish movement, unsteady hand). Higher levels of skill could even give autoaim. And sneaking in fallout was already implemented in a real time fashion.

 

[kobymu]

Wouldn't a wavering hand of your character be a much more subtle interpretation of weapon skill than a % indicator?

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

A game can be real time and first person and still limit your ability with a weapon, whether they do it fallout style (% chance to miss) or just increase difficulty of using the weapon (sluggish movement, unsteady hand). Higher levels of skill could even give autoaim.

Who is aiming, the player or the character?

And if I take the Dodger perk, who will dodge, the player or the character? If I am in the middle of running from point A to point B (or aiming/firing) and the game mechanic will decide that I am successful in dodge attempt, will it interfere with my movement/action?

And what about Bonus Rate of Fire or Action Boy perk for example, in you are going to infuse REALTIME character control with all these modifiers, controlling the character will be a weird in not downright frustrating.

Distorting real-time control of the character with attributes, skills, traits and perks is just ... it goes against the idea of having real-time control to begin with. I think EVERYONE will hate that kind of game play. Most FPS gamer will resent the interference, and RPG fans would just prefer the classical TB.

edit
And btw, aim shots, one of fallout most beloved feature, how will that work in realtime?

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: kobymu

Originally posted by: Fox5
Well, considering that turn-based is just a simplified version of real time (with steps assigned to a pre-determined length of time rather than a continuous flow), pretty much anything that can be done in a turn-based system should be doable in real time. The exception to that would be time manipulation; a turn based system, by its very nature, allows you an infinite amount of time to do whatever you're capable of, whereas in real time, if you can't accomplish something as fast as it can be done, you've effectively 'lost' that turn.

the only I disagree with in this part is the wording, TB isn?t simplified RT its abstracted RT. And I really don?t think it is simpler, quite the contrary (X-COM, Jagged Alliance, Civilization, HoMM and CHESS ) but that?s just MHO.

Those games are good examples of games that would suck if they were made as real time games.
I don't think Fallout is quite as dependent on being TB, but I still think real time is a REALLY bad idea for Fallout.

Oh and yeah, I thought Oblivion was really boring, which might have something to do with my skepticism, just for the record

 

[Starbuck1975]

WTH!? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...:_Brotherhood_of_Steel

What? Have you even played tactics?

Under Continuous Turn Based Mode, the game plays exactly as this mode sounds...the turn based combat resides in the background and doesn't interrupt the flow of the game.

And if I take the Dodger perk, who will dodge, the player or the character? If I am in the middle of running from point A to point B (or aiming/firing) and the game mechanic will decide that I am successful in dodge attempt, will it interfere with my movement/action?

Very easy...if you choose the dodge perk for your character, it means that when enemies shoot at you, there will be a modifier in place that will determine if they hit you or not...it doesn't have to manifest itself as a graphical representation on the screen, either for the player or the character in game.

And what about Bonus Rate of Fire or Action Boy perk for example, in you are going to infuse REALTIME character control with all these modifiers, controlling the character will be a weird in not downright frustrating.

Again, very easily fixed by a continuous play turn based FPS perspective combat system.

And btw, aim shots, one of fallout most beloved feature, how will that work in realtime?

Most FPS games achieve this same effect with a scope or aimed shot feature, which reduces rate of fire and tends to restrict periperal vision, but provides for more accurate shots.

Also you have to remember...the Fallout feats were meant to mirror or simulate behaviors or abilities from an isometric perspective. A FPS perspective enables players to achieve these feats real time as a reflection of their own gaming skills, rather than skills artificially created in game.

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

WTH!? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...:_Brotherhood_of_Steel

What? Have you even played tactics?

Under Continuous Turn Based Mode, the game plays exactly as this mode sounds...the turn based combat resides in the background and doesn't interrupt the flow of the game.

And if I take the Dodger perk, who will dodge, the player or the character? If I am in the middle of running from point A to point B (or aiming/firing) and the game mechanic will decide that I am successful in dodge attempt, will it interfere with my movement/action?

Very easy...if you choose the dodge perk for your character, it means that when enemies shoot at you, there will be a modifier in place that will determine if they hit you or not...it doesn't have to manifest itself as a graphical representation on the screen, either for the player or the character in game.

And what about Bonus Rate of Fire or Action Boy perk for example, in you are going to infuse REALTIME character control with all these modifiers, controlling the character will be a weird in not downright frustrating.

Again, very easily fixed by a continuous play turn based FPS perspective combat system.

TB can take many form but Bethesda said in an interview in (IIRC) gamespot they don?t do turn base!

Most FPS games achieve this same effect with a scope or aimed shot feature, which reduces rate of fire and tends to restrict periperal vision, but provides for more accurate shots.

Also you have to remember...the Fallout feats were meant to mirror or simulate behaviors or abilities from an isometric perspective. A FPS perspective enables players to achieve these feats real time as a reflection of their own gaming skills, rather than skills artificially created in game.

That is exactly the point!!!

That's what the (original) Fallout game designer where trying to accomplish. To give the character these capabilities, everything is at the discretion of the player, if the player wants his character to be a mean and lean fighting machine or diplomatic con man, it is for the player to choose. What am I a broken record?

That is why they CHOOSE the isometric perspective, nobody force them to use it. They wanted it because it helps to separate between the character capability and the player capability. They wanted the character to accomplish!

These are two completely different game play, if not the exact opposite.

If you want to BE THE CHARACTER, ask Bethesda for post apocalyptic oblivion with guns.

The problem with Bethesda making Fallout3 has 2 major drawbacks:

1) Because it will be real RT, it won't be a Fallout game.

Fallout (among other things) == S.P.E.C.I.A.L. == TB combat (in game mechanic).

2) Trying to fit S.P.E.C.I.A.L. into oblivion environment will be like trying to fit a square in a circle. It will prevent Bethesda from making a good game. It would be a fundamental design flaw!

Instead of creating a new system or modifying oblivion system (which compliment the oblivion game-play), they are using S.P.E.C.I.A.L. which will have to be lobotomized and mutilated in order for it to "work" in an Oblivion environment, simply put it would ruin it, it would only be S.P.E.C.I.A.L. on the surface, not in actual game-play or game mechanic. This will, subsequently, prevent Bethesda from making a good game like they know how.

What Bethesda should have done is make a Fallout spin-off, a pure RT game, both in game-play and mechanic, forget the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. rule set and do their own thing.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I think you are too passionate about S.P.E.C.I.A.L, which wasn't all that special anyway.

Fallout 3 will be more than Oblivion with guns...there are some people out there who found the Fallout mythos and universe appealing, but the turn based combat a nuisance...I never thought S.P.E.C.I.A.L. was all that and a bag of chips.

I could care less if I get to be Action Boy or Bloody Mess...but if I can go head to head with some super mutants in FPS, I will be a happy camper.

Bethesda, in taking over the Fallout franchise, can essentially incorporate all of the story and atmosphere elements that made Fallout great, but adapt them to a new game medium...that is not a bad thing.

 

[fierydemise]

You can do RPG and skills with real time, see Deus Ex and if Fallout 3 ended up like Deus Ex I'd be very happy.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

I'd say DX was more of a fps-rpg hybrid then a simple rpg, but I do agree I'd be happy to have a fallout 3 like that. It wouldn't be a true fallout, but the world needs more quality dx style games.

Catch is, it won't. Bethesda has over their history proven repeatedly they simply cannot make a game with graceful play mechanics. Oblivion's leveled enemies, Morrowind's stupidly broken alchemy, the horrifically counterintuitive stat leveling up used in both games.......well, I'm still waiting for something approaching a well designed system out of Bethesda.

Hopefully though, the FO fans will put their money where their mouths are, and mod the suck out of FO3, they way the ES fans have had to do.

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I think you are too passionate about S.P.E.C.I.A.L, which wasn't all that special anyway.

Fallout 3 will be more than Oblivion with guns...there are some people out there who found the Fallout mythos and universe appealing, but the turn based combat a nuisance...I never thought S.P.E.C.I.A.L. was all that and a bag of chips.

I could care less if I get to be Action Boy or Bloody Mess...but if I can go head to head with some super mutants in FPS, I will be a happy camper.

In other words you want to play oblivion in the fallout universe ?

I will be quite happy if Bethseda delivers an Oblivion like gameplay experience in the Fallout universe.

Bethesda, in taking over the Fallout franchise, can essentially incorporate all of the story and atmosphere elements that made Fallout great, but adapt them to a new game medium...that is not a bad thing.

*sigh* And we are back at square one, fallout greatness is the story atmosphere only! the rest is junk.

Here is the tricky bit, story and atmosphere isn?t graphics and sound effects, the Fallout designers managed to convey that atmosphere and story through character, not player, it is in the way you character interacts with the world, it is about the choices you take and their consequences. It is in the writing, in the game design, in the quest and in the game-play system.

The name Fallout name isn?t some kind of fiery dust you sprinkle over you computer that will magically make the story good and the atmosphere compelling.

If fallout was all about post apocalyptic setting and atmosphere and dark humor, but with sucky rule-set and game-play, you think it would still reached a lot of players (including some players that aren?t even cRPG fans.) top games list of ALL TIME?

No it wouldn?t because fallout is MUCH more then just dark humored post apocalyptic cRPG. There are SO MANY elements that converged together to make fallout what it is, its all link together, it is about the sum of its parts.

If you are going to take large parts out of it, don?t be surprised that at the end of the day all you are left with is some kind of post apocalyptic GTA wannabe, only with a superficial story*, and immersion through graphics.

*Hay, the oblivion and fallout3 chief game designer said it himself (GameInformer's magazine):

Fantasy, for us, is a knight on horseback running around and killing things", says Howard excitedly

Story? I don?t think so.

But then again I get the feeling that this is what you want. Just another mah game that will be obsolete once its graphics will be obsolete. Strip away oblivion from its shiny graphics and it would be reduced to nothing more then uninspiring virtual LARPing.

Fallout 1 & 2 as it stands now is timeless and people will still play it another 10 years from now just like they are playing it now, 10 years from its original conception. Oblivion has yet to stand that test, and IMHO, it wouldn?t do half as well as fallout. Go to oblivion forums and ask how many people REplayed Oblivion and Morrowind from start to finish more then twice, and then go to No_Mutants_Allowed and Duck_and_Cover, two very active forums considering the fact that they revolve around a game that is 10 years old, and ask them the same question about Fallout.

Then go to:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=8 - Fallout General Modding ? it is still being modded and supported by the fallout community as humanly possible (considering they are just modders). 10 years after.

http://www.fanmadefallout.com

http://www.fifengine.de/

About FIFE:
FIFE stands for Flexible Isometric Fallout-like Engine. Just like the name of our project suggests we work on a new open source engine for all kinds of isometric games. The people working on it got a RPG background but it should be possible to customize the engine so it even works for other ISO games like RTS. The engine started as a Fallout-only project but we recognized very fast that it offers the potential to be used as a general 2d ISO engine for the development of cross platform RPGs.

and last but not least:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/
* http://rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=18

And maybe you will start to understand just how deep of an impact fallout series had on computer RPGs fans. And anyone that think that the Fallout series would have died if Bethesda didn?t purchased the right for it, dosnt really know what they are talking about.

It is a shame that the Fallout 3 will be turn to yet just another superficial, graphically amazing but hollowed shelled CRPG. It was a sad day to CRPG when Bethesda bought the Fallout license, and I will miss what Fallout 3 could have become (link below).

http://nma-fallout.com/content.php?page=vanburen
http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=35862

 

[Skacer]

When I was a kid, I used to think every game should be an FPS. Sports game? Make it an FPS and let me run around throwing the pass, kicking the ball. Adventure game? Make it an FPS. Strategy? Make it an FPS. Sidescroller? That should be an FPS. As I grew up, I realized and learned to appreciate other genres because I simply had enough FPS games and didn't need everything to be that. I wanted the other games to focus on something different, to give me another experience and a different challenge.

When I read some people's posts, I'm reminded of my old viewpoint from long ago. People who wouldn't mind if anything got turned into an FPS as long as they got their fix. I could see them posting the same about Mario "I don't really care about the Mario gameplay, but I always liked the little plumber and I can't wait to control him in first person and shoot some koopa troopas". These people will eventually realize that not everything works great as an FPS, and in the process they lost what made a game great.