Fallout 4 - it's official! Coming Nov 10, '15

[Morbus]

Perhaps I should be more clear. I wouldn't claim that no one wants to play games like that. I WILL claim that not enough people want to play games like that to justify the investment required for a AAA title by a major developer/publisher. Especially given the indie market - turn-based games are much more easily developed by indie developers than real time 3D games, so turn-based games are more and more the province of indie developers. (RTS games are still somewhat of a difference, obviously.) Games like The Witcher 1-3 are obviously exceptions though, so your point is well taken.

I agree with you.

But, as I said, Fallout was never meant to be a AAA title. It was created with exactly that in mind. Everyone was playing Quake and Tomb Raider. Fallout wanted to NOT do that.

This is all I'm saying.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. But while my side won the Fallout debate, as you point out your side still has plenty of games with old-style Fallout-like mechanics, including Wasteland which I think we'd both agree is closer to the first two Fallout games than is either Fallout 3 or New Vegas. Vive variety.

Sure, I'm perfectly fine with how things are. But I think "your side" didn't win Fallout. "Your side" is simply much stronger. If it were to be called Shadowrun and not Fallout, Fallout 3 would have had just as much success, if not more. If it were called Deus Ex 3 instead, same thing, even more, most likely. If it were System Shock 3, even more...

Bethesda's fanbase is just too damn big and strong, and I should know, I've been there for years, modding, discussing, spending hundreds of hours playing their games.

I wouldn't say I agree with most of their views, but they're just too big not to "win" any fight they get into. Because they basically swallow everything else.

Except Call of Duty. Activision would eat Bethesda for supper if they acquired The Elder Scrolls. They're a whole different game.

I have summed up Fallout 3 as "Oblivion with guns" myself, and that is basically what I was saying in my last couple posts. So we are clearly miscommunicating.

 

[rivethead]

So do you play as that German Shepard? That was 90% of the trailer so I'm guessing so...

 

[Maximilian]

Oh please have a new engine... not gamebryo again! I know they called it something different for skyrim but its still gamebryo.

 

[Morbus]

It's always gonna be GameBryo.

Most of the workforce over there works almost exclusively with their content creation system.

Creating a new engine would have to include creating a new content creation system as well.

 

[sweenish]

I agree with you.
Everyone was playing Quake and Tomb Raider. Fallout wanted to NOT do that.

So, no other cRPG's on the market at the time? Really? Maybe I'm just entering the discussion too late, having not read the previous pages, but that statement just screamed "hurr durr" to me.

 

[Morbus]

So, no other cRPG's on the market at the time? Really? Maybe I'm just entering the discussion too late, having not read the previous pages, but that statement just screamed "hurr durr" to me.

At that time? You had dungeon crawlers and rogue-likes, for the most part, nothing like Fallout at all. At least not anything recent, no.

But then again, I was 10 when it came out, so what the hell do I know of anything?
Maybe Might & Magic? But, again, that's a totally different game. First person, party based, fantasy...

Seriously, it's no wonder Fallout was such a huge success and still is (the originals). It's just absolutely great, refreshing and good.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Fallout and Fallout 2 were not a success, which is surprising, but they weren't. They garnered a cult following with PC gamers over time.

Most gamers were playing PSX at the time - when FFVII came out.

 

[Morbus]

Fallout and Fallout 2 were not a success, which is surprising, but they weren't.

Check your history mate.

Fallout 1 was such a success that Interplay, who regarded Fallout as a side-project, nothing that would ever sell, immediately took over the development of the sequel (which ultimately led to the exit of the creators because they didn't agree with the corporate policy of Interplay - which, incidentally, led to the edn of Interplay six years later) and rush Fallout 2 out the door a single year later.

Not only was it generally well received by the critics, and, as you say, garnered a cult following around the world, but it sold more than most of the competition, despite the much lower budget.

Most gamers were playing PSX at the time - when FFVII came out.

Yeah, and most people were watching Friends on TV.

:EDIT:
Aditional proof. Fallout 1 was not developed by Black Isle. Black Isle Studio was founded in 1996, a year before Fallout 1 came out.
Of course, Fallout 2 bears the familiar logo in its opening cinematic. Think of that what you will.
Remember that Interplay was a very powerful game house back in the day. They grew from about 50 people working there in 1992 to around 600 in 1997 and they kept growing still.
Of course, the shame that was Fallout Brotherhood of Steel was only a reflect of how rotten their money grubbing policies were, and it's a good thing they died a fiery death. Shame Van Buren never say the light of day, but it's more of a shame that the post-apoc game Troika was developing never saw the light of day either.
Not the same market, not the same market at all.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Check your history mate.

Fallout 1 was such a success that Interplay, who regarded Fallout as a side-project, nothing that would ever sell, immediately took over the development of the sequel (which ultimately led to the exit of the creators because they didn't agree with the corporate policy of Interplay - which, incidentally, led to the edn of Interplay six years later) and rush Fallout 2 out the door a single year later.

Not only was it generally well received by the critics, and, as you say, garnered a cult following around the world, but it sold more than most of the competition, despite the much lower budget.


Yeah, and most people were watching Friends on TV.

:EDIT:
Aditional proof. Fallout 1 was not developed by Black Isle. Black Isle Studio was founded in 1996, a year before Fallout 1 came out.
Of course, Fallout 2 bears the familiar logo in its opening cinematic. Think of that what you will.
Remember that Interplay was a very powerful game house back in the day. They grew from about 50 people working there in 1992 to around 600 in 1997 and they kept growing still.
Of course, the shame that was Fallout Brotherhood of Steel was only a reflect of how rotten their money grubbing policies were, and it's a good thing they died a fiery death. Shame Van Buren never say the light of day, but it's more of a shame that the post-apoc game Troika was developing never saw the light of day either.
Not the same market, not the same market at all.

I did - prior to ever posting about it, and everything says neither were a big success, they weren't flops, but they weren't hits by any stretch. And they stated exactly what I said about FFVII as a reason. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but there was no "pc vs console" crowd back then. Most people had a combination or only consoles, and PC being the in thing wasn't big then. ---sorry I was looking for all the articles that popped up after the FO4 announcement but I can't find the ones I am referring to.

I bought Fallout 1 the day it was released. Have yet to ever finish it :/ -- but that is on me. I own every Fallout game..haven't finished a single one

 

[Morbus]

Really. Interesting.

I seem to remember those days being the height of the strategy games. The dawn of the FPSs too.

And those were PC only.

In fact, back in those days is when we EVER had a PC vs console war, because the genres hadn't yet melted down to the moronic mess we see today, and there was still a very clear distinction between what you played on console and what you played on PC.

If you don't see that, I'd rather not keep arguing, sorry.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Really. Interesting.

I seem to remember those days being the height of the strategy games. The dawn of the FPSs too.

And those were PC only.

In fact, back in those days is when we EVER had a PC vs console war, because the genres hadn't yet melted down to the moronic mess we see today, and there was still a very clear distinction between what you played on console and what you played on PC.

If you don't see that, I'd rather not keep arguing, sorry.

There was no war, for the very reason you suggested. The war came much later when the shift turned to making games for console first. I'm not arguing that. I agree on most of what you are saying, only one detail and that is that consoles were selling many many more games than PC. I too was surprised to find that Fallout was not really a success. According to many Bethesda saved the franchise by it's changes (although a 3rd one was already in the works prior to being shut down). Obviously that is a matter of opinion, but there is no denying it is more popular now more than ever.

 

[Morbus]

And besides, Final Fantasy VII is not a real RPG. It's basically a dungeon crawler. There are no choices and consequences.

But alright. I can see where you're coming from.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

So do you play as that German Shepard? That was 90% of the trailer so I'm guessing so...

I bet there will be a mod to play as the dog

 

[tidy]

.

 

[shortylickens]

That is incredibly promising. All I want is a proper engine that uses at least 4 cores. Modders can add on content, visuals, shaders, all sorts of good stuff. But modders can never go back and re-architect the engine to work on more cores.

Bingo.

Theres only so much you can do in Oblivion or New Vegas. The game just cant handle super high poly counts or massive textures. Nor can it do all kinds of cool lighting and particle effects. Skyrim is a little better especially with dynamic lighting, but we need something even better this time around.

And Bethesda can always release optional hi-res DLC for free a little later. They did it once and I dont think too many people had serious complaints.

 

[tidy]

.

 

[escrow4]

That sounds like a bad excuse for them to cling on to that engine. CDPR started with a brand new platform after 2007, and look at what they're accomplishing now.

Logically they should use RedEngine 3 from the Witcher III. CD Projekt created the engine from scratch simply because there wasn't (and still isn't) an engine out there suited to fat epic RPGs with multiple meandering quest lines combined with high quality graphics. Mass Effect used UE3, Oblivion and Skyrim and Fallout 3/NV are all on creaky old Gamebryo. CryEngine is too heavy; RedEngine logical choice.

 

[pathos]

For most people whichever Elder Scrolls game was your first is the one that you feel was the best/most revolutionary. The first time being exposed to that kind of open world leaves an impression.

I can say with absolute certainty that anyone who felt Oblivion was the best in the series never played Morrowind first

Well, kind of

My first game was Arena. My favorite is Daggerfall (but, mostly for nostalgia).

Realistically, my favorite would probably be Morrowind, since it's kind of hard to compare "fairly" modern games with games designed to run on 486's.

I do miss alot of gameplay mechanics from arena and daggerfall, however. You know, running through a dungeon at level 5, and suddenly hearing that noise that meant there was a lich capable of 1 shotting you just around the corner, coming straight for you, and you've forgotten to save for the past hour...now what do you do?

Also, the game world was much, much, much larger for the first 2 games. The bad part was much of the dungeons were randomly created, but you could literally explore forever in those games.

edit - I'm sure i'll buy the game, and play it.

But, I'm waiting on the inevitable bunny ear and large chest mods.

What? I'm talking about the dudes.

 

[Silverforce11]

@Mandres
Might & Magic had the open world RPG covered. Also Daggerfall, I wasted countless hours of my youth in those games.

Fallout needs a really good return to its isometric TBS roots.

Same for Syndicate & S Wars.

For those saying its a niche, not really, its just no good isometric TBS games have been made for a long time.

Even Shadowrun & Dragonfall did really well and it was an indie development, lacking AAA quality & polish.

 

[Borealis7]

its just no good isometric TBS games have been made for a long time.

wut??
Divinity: Original Sin
Wasteland 2
Dragon Age: Inquisition
Banner Saga
there's more but all can be played top down, TBS (or pause-able) and are RPGs.

 

[werepossum]

That is incredibly promising. All I want is a proper engine that uses at least 4 cores. Modders can add on content, visuals, shaders, all sorts of good stuff. But modders can never go back and re-architect the engine to work on more cores.

That's an excellent point. Assuming Bethesda properly supports modders on whatever engine it is using, the engine is determining the ceiling for modders at least as much as the appearance of the vanilla game.

There was no war, for the very reason you suggested. The war came much later when the shift turned to making games for console first. I'm not arguing that. I agree on most of what you are saying, only one detail and that is that consoles were selling many many more games than PC. I too was surprised to find that Fallout was not really a success. According to many Bethesda saved the franchise by it's changes (although a 3rd one was already in the works prior to being shut down). Obviously that is a matter of opinion, but there is no denying it is more popular now more than ever.

I think you and Morbus may both be correct. Obviously neither of the first two Fallout games would be considered a success for a major game developer/publisher, but for Interplay it was a major success and part of the reason for Interplay's very rapid growth and almost-maturation into a true front line developer capable of developing true 3D games. (Especially given that most of Interplay's other successes had IP royalties to be paid from the profits, meaning they could sell more but net Interplay less profit.) By that measure we can't simply compare sales figures against the high-selling games of the day any more than we can say the AMX wasn't a success for American Mothers because it sold so much less than did the Corvette. Had Interplay's sports games and forays into publishing (and later, into console games) gone as well, Interplay today might well be a major developer and/or publisher rather than the non-entity we occasionally remember isn't quite dead. In fact, had Interplay managed to complete Van Buren before imploding, it might well have saved the company. From what little I've seen of Van Buren, it was easily comparable to major 3D products of the day, and with an atypically good story combined with software's comparatively very low post-development production costs Van Buren might have single-handedly saved the company.

 

[Silverforce11]

wut??
Divinity: Original Sin
Wasteland 2
Dragon Age: Inquisition
Banner Saga
there's more but all can be played top down, TBS (or pause-able) and are RPGs.

Turn based with AP movement/combat system, no real-time pausing RPGs.

Wasteland 2 is good, it was a Fallout successor as well as Wasteland 1.

My point is its not a niche market. Good isometric TBS do well if its good.

 

[werepossum]

Turn based with AP movement/combat system, no real-time pausing RPGs.

Wasteland 2 is good, it was a Fallout successor as well as Wasteland 1.

My point is its not a niche market. Good isometric TBS do well if its good.

Kind of depends on how you define "do well", eh? How long has it been since we've had a AAA, top 10 sales game which is TBS based on an individual or small group? Has there been anything since Diablo? The genre makes more sense if you're running a nation, but seems to me that a TBS game centered on an individual has pretty much fallen to the indie level of funding and sales expectations.

 

[Rakewell]

I bet there will be a mod to play as the dog

There will probably be a mod for a German Shepherd faction

 

[thehotsung8701A]

I have never try any of the fallout 3 and Vegas mod though I'm assuming it on par with Skyrim mod or at least half as good?