Fallout 4 - it's official! Coming Nov 10, '15

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Morbus

Senior member
Apr 10, 2009
998
0
0
The visual element in every video game, especially one constructed for the illusion of 3d, I find important. There is a balance, and the original fall-out was dated in its release yet more than enough to carry the imagination of many at that time. Going back to that same game however , by today's standards , the game looks so visually outdated that it detracts from the fun of the game. It actually becomes distracting!
I challenge you to watch me play Fallout 1 and 2 in my channel and marvel at how much I enjoy it.

Seriously, it's all a matter of taste.
NEO Scavenger has worse graphics: my favorite RPG of 2014
FTL has worse graphics: sold by the millions
Minecraft has worse graphics: sold by the millions

Personally, I love Fallout and Fallout 2's graphics. The style, the art direction, the consistency, it's head and shoulders above many AAA games of today, including Fallout 3. Sure, the graphical fidelity isn't as good, but who cares? Darkest Dungeon and Don't Starve are both 2D as well, and I consider them to be very pretty games.
 

dave1029

Member
May 11, 2015
94
1
0
Not necessarily, and what's your point anyway? Skyrim's Gamebryo wasn't the first iteration of Gamebryo by a long shot, and it still sucked.



No one with half a brain is going to take sharpening post filters into the equation when comparing one engine's visuals to another. I don't even use sharpening in TW3 in the first place. Not a fan of SweetFX post processing band-aids either. The fact that you seem to think that a sharpening filter can make the difference between a game looking good or not does little for your credibility. TW3's sharpening filter is garbage, and the game looks better with it disabled unless you like over-sharpening artifacts. SweetFX can never make up for an engine that's lacking in the fundamentals (eg. faces, distant landscapes, minimal visual disturbance as new areas are loaded). That much is made pristinely apparent in all the SweetFX Skyrim screenshots everyone's always so eager to share.
A lot of those things have nothing to do with the engine. And as far as TW3 goes, I don't know what monitor you're using, but if I don't have sharpening on high on my 4K monitor, my eyes bleed. We haven't seen a Bethesda game use DX 11... now we'll see. Can we reserve judgement until the game is actually released instead of saying: *gamebyro 23rd edition... still must suck because gamebyro."
 

Regs

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
16,665
21
81
I challenge you to watch me play Fallout 1 and 2 in my channel and marvel at how much I enjoy it.

Seriously, it's all a matter of taste.
NEO Scavenger has worse graphics: my favorite RPG of 2014
FTL has worse graphics: sold by the millions
Minecraft has worse graphics: sold by the millions

Personally, I love Fallout and Fallout 2's graphics. The style, the art direction, the consistency, it's head and shoulders above many AAA games of today, including Fallout 3. Sure, the graphical fidelity isn't as good, but who cares? Darkest Dungeon and Don't Starve are both 2D as well, and I consider them to be very pretty games.

See, there lies the difference. Fallout 3 was meant to be 3d and Fall Out 1 and 2 2D. Different formats! If you're going to break down barriers into 3d, then they can't do it haphazardly. 2d you are looking for a puzzle and challenge, but 3d you are looking for a illusory world.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
It depends on the engine. For example some developers start with textures that are way higher resolution than necessary. Those are scaled down to fit within memory constraints and for performance reasons. That's how Naughty Dog did Last of US for PS4. They went back and used the textures at their original resolution which was much higher than what they used for PS3 when they created the remaster for PS4. They scaled them down because the PS3 didn't have the memory available to use them. This can apply to a developer working on a PC game as well. That's not costing any time or money because the assets are already made. They just don't compress them down as much. I guarantee you that they have no requirement for parity between PC and console so blaming consoles for a game not being as visually impressive as it could be is just an excuse. It's always up to the developer and if they use that excuse as well they are using it as a scapegoat.
That is a good point. Forward looking developers can bring better graphics to the PC (and to future gen consoles) at little cost in some cases. Making and scaling down textures higher than currently needed probably has little additional cost and makes a much more attractive PC option, as well as offering a comparatively low cost remaster to the next gen. Now I'm even more pissed there is no first person PC Last of Us.

It will look a lot better than Skyrim. Check the screenshots. Textures, lighting, looks a lot better.

The stuff in the distance looks kind of the same though. I still expect a lot of pop-in if they aren't careful with how they design things. With such wide open vistas as Fallout 3 had its impossible to hide pop-in.
Honestly, pop-in bothers me more than second rate graphics. Several times in Fallout 3 I missed buildings that later popped in - even though a second before I could clearly see the terrain behind it. That's very immersion-breaking.

A lot of those things have nothing to do with the engine. And as far as TW3 goes, I don't know what monitor you're using, but if I don't have sharpening on high on my 4K monitor, my eyes bleed. We haven't seen a Bethesda game use DX 11... now we'll see. Can we reserve judgement until the game is actually released instead of saying: *gamebyro 23rd edition... still must suck because gamebyro."
Well said. Personally I am reasonably happy with what I've seen so far. I'm more concerned about the voiced protagonist. I could not care less either way about having my selected dialog voiced or not, but I really really hope Bethesda isn't falling into the frustrated movie maker mode of filling a video game with cut scenes to make it "cinematic". Games and movies are very different critters, and trying to force one into the other makes me a sad panda.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I challenge you to watch me play Fallout 1 and 2 in my channel and marvel at how much I enjoy it.

Seriously, it's all a matter of taste.
NEO Scavenger has worse graphics: my favorite RPG of 2014
FTL has worse graphics: sold by the millions
Minecraft has worse graphics: sold by the millions

Personally, I love Fallout and Fallout 2's graphics. The style, the art direction, the consistency, it's head and shoulders above many AAA games of today, including Fallout 3. Sure, the graphical fidelity isn't as good, but who cares? Darkest Dungeon and Don't Starve are both 2D as well, and I consider them to be very pretty games.
Much as I disliked Fallout 1 and 2, that can't possibly compare to the horror of watching someone else play them. However, it occurs to me that my main problem with iPad gaming is the inherently poor control scheme, which is why I play Minecraft on it but wouldn't play Minecraft on my PC, and that turn based combat is ideally suited for tablets. Maybe someone who loves Fallout 1 and 2 will bring them to mobile gaming.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
A lot of those things have nothing to do with the engine. And as far as TW3 goes, I don't know what monitor you're using, but if I don't have sharpening on high on my 4K monitor, my eyes bleed. We haven't seen a Bethesda game use DX 11... now we'll see. Can we reserve judgement until the game is actually released instead of saying: *gamebyro 23rd edition... still must suck because gamebyro."

Sharpening on high introduces artifacts so you are actually seeing an inferior image. Ask anyone who knows about video calibration and they'll tell you that sharpness set too high is bad.
 

Rhezuss

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2006
4,120
34
91
I challenge you to watch me play Fallout 1 and 2 in my channel and marvel at how much I enjoy it.

Seriously, it's all a matter of taste.
NEO Scavenger has worse graphics: my favorite RPG of 2014
FTL has worse graphics: sold by the millions
Minecraft has worse graphics: sold by the millions

Personally, I love Fallout and Fallout 2's graphics. The style, the art direction, the consistency, it's head and shoulders above many AAA games of today, including Fallout 3. Sure, the graphical fidelity isn't as good, but who cares? Darkest Dungeon and Don't Starve are both 2D as well, and I consider them to be very pretty games.

NEO Scavenger look really cool, it's on my wishlist now!
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,184
626
126
From someone that's never played fallout except maybe a few hours of fallout 3 on ps3 I think, would it be worthwhile looking into it will I not enjoy it like borderlands?
 

dave1029

Member
May 11, 2015
94
1
0
Sharpening on high introduces artifacts so you are actually seeing an inferior image. Ask anyone who knows about video calibration and they'll tell you that sharpness set too high is bad.
Please don't tell me what I am seeing. Thank you. If it's less than high, the image is so blurry that whether there is a lack of artifacts or not doesn't matter. You're going to have to take my word on that.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Please don't tell me what I am seeing. Thank you. If it's less than high, the image is so blurry that whether there is a lack of artifacts or not doesn't matter. You're going to have to take my word on that.


Ok if you want to see an inferior image be my guest.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
From someone that's never played fallout except maybe a few hours of fallout 3 on ps3 I think, would it be worthwhile looking into it will I not enjoy it like borderlands?


Have you played skyrim? Imagine that in a different setting with guns.
 

dave1029

Member
May 11, 2015
94
1
0
Once your brain has adapted to the oversharpened image, everything will look blurry by comparison. It's like people who abuse the loudness function on their stereo; after listening to that exaggerated EQ curve for a while, everything sounds 'gutless' by comparison. You should try disabling the sharpness filter and playing for a few days, and see if you can't re-train your brain. You'll probably find that the game doesn't actually look that blurry in reality.

It's widely accepted that aggressive sharpening filters only degrade IQ. It's a cheap trick to try and make it look like there is extra detail where there is none. It's in the same vein as the TVs that try to simulate higher framerates by using interpolation tricks (likewise rejected by anyone who cares about a quality image). In both cases you're trying to generate new information out of nothing, and there are always undesirable side effects/artifacts. The only real solution to juddery low framerate content is to film more frames per second in the first place, just as the only real solution to blurry textures is to have higher res textures in the first place.

That's fair. Just leads me to believe that TW3 has low quality textures that uses sharpening as a form of bandaid.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
From someone that's never played fallout except maybe a few hours of fallout 3 on ps3 I think, would it be worthwhile looking into it will I not enjoy it like borderlands?

FO3 and NV should be on the Steam sale. Grab them now for cheap.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,184
626
126
That's fair. Just leads me to believe that TW3 has low quality textures that uses sharpening as a form of bandaid.
I notice geralt's face is a bit more blurry without sharpening to high. With all other settings set to ultra. But I too will mess with the sharpening to see if I notice anything.
 

Morbus

Senior member
Apr 10, 2009
998
0
0
See, there lies the difference. Fallout 3 was meant to be 3d and Fall Out 1 and 2 2D. Different formats! If you're going to break down barriers into 3d, then they can't do it haphazardly. 2d you are looking for a puzzle and challenge, but 3d you are looking for a illusory world.
Yeah! Like Minecraft!

Much as I disliked Fallout 1 and 2
I guess that says it all, doesn't it?

NEO Scavenger look really cool, it's on my wishlist now!
It's fabulous. And after you're bored with the game and you've finished and whatnot, you can get mods and extend the lifetime of the game even more! It's an absolute gem, for sure!
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I sincerely doubt that would ever happen. Bethesda have numerous flaws, but the overuse of cinematics has never been one of them. Cinematics at an appropriate minimum and no QTEs, they definitely deserve credit for that.
True, and let's hope that continues.

On another note, I tried once again to play the original Fallout. OMG. I made it maybe fifteen minutes, which brings me to perhaps thirty minutes total over three attempts. First I move. I can move eight steps. I counted. However, since I am apparently drunk, dyslexic and blind, those eight steps move me perhaps four steps closer to my goal. Then I stand perfectly still while a bazillion cave rats move. One at a time. Slowly. Then I get to move another eight steps. Rinse, repeat, throw up a little in my mouth. Occassionaly the monotony is broken by, well, another kind of monotony, where a cave rat attacks me. I lose a hit point or two, which apparently is not a big deal to my character (for whom I am feeling zero attachment or empathy and in fact have begun to wish dead) as I continue to stand there. It occurs to me that fighting back, in spite of seeming quite out of character, would at least be something to do, but I have no idea of to accomplish this. In attempting to click on literally everything visible I finally get a message; seems I don't have enough action points to use inventory. Seriously? My screen tells me I am unarmed - evidently our vault is lacking not only firearms, but also knives and blunt instruments. (Other than my character, I mean; I am fairly sure that sending him outside was in fact a mercy killing.) After an interminable time which Steam assures me is a couple minutes but which I am fairly sure can be properly measured only in geological terms, I find my way out, rat-bitten ankles and all.

I am now in Vault 15. Vault 15 is full of - you guessed it - cave rats, including one giant cave rat. The graphics are so bad I literally have no idea at what I am looking, so I am forced to click on different things to be told. All the while I am trailing cave rats. Once again, I move my eight steps, then wait while an uncountable number of cave rats pursue me. One. At. A. Time. Slowly - your reading "One. At. A. Time." is actually compressing the "action" almost beyond recognition. The game is isometric, so I can only look at things on two walls and in fact a significant part of my path is not visible. By this point this is not a problem as I'm hoping for a deep hole with lava at the bottom, but it ensures that any fleeting sense of immersion that might wander by is promptly beaten to death. Well, gently smothered in its sleep anyway; beating it to death would be a totally unacceptable amount of excitement.

I cannot see how anyone ever got to anything remotely atmospheric in this game. By comparison, Rogue (the original from the eighties, with a smiley face attacked by hostile letters) is virtual reality, as I at least immediately knew what was around me and was allowed to move more than 10% of the game. Text-based adventures had better graphics. Solitaire has a deeper story. Were this the first video game I ever played, I quite likely would never have played another and might well have gone on to found a new religion based on ritually sacrificing video game developers.

If your idea of a good time is watching glaciers race or playing Schafkopf with narcoleptics, this may be your game. Otherwise, please join me in thanking G-d for Bethesda, who brought the rich lore of the Fallout universe into a pace suitable for the living.
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
True, and let's hope that continues.

On another note, I tried once again to play the original Fallout. OMG. I made it maybe fifteen minutes, which brings me to perhaps thirty minutes total over three attempts. First I move. I can move eight steps. I counted. However, since I am apparently drunk, dyslexic and blind, those eight steps move me perhaps four steps closer to my goal. Then I stand perfectly still while a bazillion cave rats move. One at a time. Slowly. Then I get to move another eight steps. Rinse, repeat, throw up a little in my mouth. Occassionaly the monotony is broken by, well, another kind of monotony, where a cave rat attacks me. I lose a hit point or two, which apparently is not a big deal to my character (for whom I am feeling zero attachment or empathy and in fact have begun to wish dead) as I continue to stand there. It occurs to me that fighting back, in spite of seeming quite out of character, would at least be something to do, but I have no idea of to accomplish this. In attempting to click on literally everything visible I finally get a message; seems I don't have enough action points to use inventory. Seriously? My screen tells me I am unarmed - evidently our vault is lacking not only firearms, but also knives and blunt instruments. (Other than my character, I mean; I am fairly sure that sending him outside was in fact a mercy killing.) After an interminable time which Steam assures me is a couple minutes but which I am fairly sure can be properly measured only in geological terms, I find my way out, rat-bitten ankles and all.

I am now in Vault 15. Vault 15 is full of - you guessed it - cave rats, including one giant cave rat. The graphics are so bad I literally have no idea at what I am looking, so I am forced to click on different things to be told. All the while I am trailing cave rats. Once again, I move my eight steps, then wait while an uncountable number of cave rats pursue me. One. At. A. Time. Slowly - your reading "One. At. A. Time." is actually compressing the "action" almost beyond recognition. The game is isometric, so I can only look at things on two walls and in fact a significant part of my path is not visible. By this point this is not a problem as I'm hoping for a deep hole with lava at the bottom, but it ensures that any fleeting sense of immersion that might wander by is promptly beaten to death. Well, gently smothered in its sleep anyway; beating it to death would be a totally unacceptable amount of excitement.

I cannot see how anyone ever got to anything remotely atmospheric in this game. By comparison, Rogue (the original from the eighties, with a smiley face attacked by hostile letters) is virtual reality, as I at least immediately knew what was around me and was allowed to move more than 10% of the game. Text-based adventures had better graphics. Solitaire has a deeper story. Were this the first video game I ever played, I quite likely would never have played another and might well have gone on to found a new religion based on ritually sacrificing video game developers.

If your idea of a good time is watching glaciers race or playing Schafkopf with narcoleptics, this may be your game. Otherwise, please join me in thanking G-d for Bethesda, who brought the rich lore of the Fallout universe into a pace suitable for the living.

Guessing you've never played X-COM or any strategic or 4x game before....
 

Ronin13

Senior member
Aug 5, 2001
374
0
76
If you dislike the start of Fallout 1, you'll *really* hate the start of Fallout 2.

Seems fair to say that this kind of game just isn't for you - no biggie.

To me, Fallout 1 is one of the most brilliant things ever commited to a single CD, always giving me a much more immersive gaming experience than any 3D attempt has been capable of.

Different strokes and all that.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
That's fair. Just leads me to believe that TW3 has low quality textures that uses sharpening as a form of bandaid.

Not the case, they added the option because people complained that the image they got didn't match the overly sharpened (and artifacted) preview images and videos. They gave people what they asked for and nothing more.

I played the game the first time with sharpening on high but changed it to medium after a bit. It was much better on medium. The textures aren't the tops by any means, but they aren't low quality either. I'd label them as decidedly above average.
 
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sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,184
626
126
I would hope to like fallout 4 but playing witcher 3 has spoiled me I think. I watched some play through videos of fallout 3 and it seemed so vast and empty. Enemies seemed to take tons of damage too or maybe the guy that was playing was new I don't know. To me it looked kind of boring but we shall see.
 
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