Fat loss - how to lose the bulge and gain the ripples

[SociallyChallenged]

If you'd like to continue debating this topic, either start a new thread or PM me. You're thread crapping, which is against the forum rules. Moderators will be contacted.

 

[Paleo]

So let me get this straight... The first law of thermodynamics doesn't apply... and then you say calories in vs calories out does? Either you're not explaining yourself well or you're making some seriously contradictory statements.

Also, what does the CV system have to do with this? We don't talk about the cardiovascular system burning the majority of calories during exercise. We talk about skeletal muscle, since that requires most of the energy utilized in movement.

And now you spout off irrelevant information? Talking about glucose, a carbohydrate derivative... Which is not created by gluconeogenesis, except in EXTREME conditions. You don't seem to understand the conditions under which GNG occurs. It's called starvation. Marathon running. Not everyday life. People survive via ketogenesis on KETONE BODIES, not exactly a preferable source compared to glucose.

The rest of your post made no sense at all. I have no idea what you were trying to say.

... another blubbering post by Mr. Ding Dong

No, you said calories count....i said it doesn't.

You don't even know why the first law of thermodynamics doesn't pertain to humans...LOL....you probably don't even know what it is.

 

[Paleo]

If you'd like to continue debating this topic, either start a new thread or PM me. You're thread crapping, which is against the forum rules. Moderators will be contacted.

Below IS thread crapping

Let's see if I can first clarify some things for you. When you begin exercising, your body utilizes the phosphagen pathway, then the glycolytic pathway (carbs only), and then the oxidative pathway (carbs and fats). The oxidative pathway starts up after about ONE minute of exercise. That means fats begin to get burned almost as soon as you start exercising. During physical activity after that, you will burn a skew of both fats and carbohydrates - at lower intensities, you'll mobilize more fat and use that while at higher intensities, you'll utilize almost entirely carbohydrates.

There's a huge problem with thinking that, if you work out a lower intensities, you'll burn more fat. In all technicality, you will. However, there are many several sources of fats, primarily free fatty acids, muscular fat stores, and then finally adipose tissue (which is typically what people are concerned about). If you're eating at caloric maintenance, all fat stores and glycogen stores utilized will be restored. If you're eating in a caloric deficit, there's a order or priority for the body to restore certain compounds before others. Typically when recovering from endurance exercise, glycogen is the first to be restored, then fat stores, and then muscle tissue is repaired. If an individual is only doing aerobic exercise, then both the glycogen and fat stores will be restored first and foremost. This is why people CAN lose so much muscle while only doing cardio. Muscle repair is a low priority compared to fat stores and glycogen availability, since these are so necessary for good cardio.

However, if you engage in strength training, the load initiates genetic pathways for hypertrophy. This skews the order of priority quite a bit. Glycogen restoration is still very important, but muscle repair becomes one of the body's main focuses. Body fat restoration is less important at that point since there is no benefit for it during strength training. This sounds like I'm saying the body recognizes what's best during each situation: it's not that simple. As you engage in certain activities, there are specific genetic markers, enzymes, and compounds that are expressed that benefit development in response to a stress. This is why I mention to start on a strength training program while losing weight. It will help with fat loss a great deal more, while cardio's effects depend a bit more on genetics.

Now to approach which zone to work in. I feel everybody should work at high, moderate, and low intensities to mix things up. All of them will work to decrease the body fat percentage of an individual in a caloric deficit, especially if the individual is on a strength training program. Eating enough protein, being in a caloric deficit, and working out will be more than enough to burn fat. In my experience, cardio isn't typically where body fat % is decreased the quickest - strength training is. Hope that helps....SociallyChallenged

Again Diest Law of Thermodynamics doesn't pertain to humans....we are not close end systems, we are open end.

 

[Paleo]

Whey protein, nor any other supplement, will push you through a plateau. Whey is a supplement for a reason. It's typically used for its ease (compared to eating a chicken breast right after training) and its cost effectiveness. The first thing to look at is your training program. What kind of program are you doing? How many sets and reps? What weights are you using? What's your height, weight, age?

Denatured vs. Undenatured whey protein....whats the difference?

 

[Paleo]

No, high rep training works like aerobic training. It stimulates catabolism to a greater degree than low rep training. Because of this, protein degradation increases and muscle is burned as an energy source. At low reps and high weight, the load (and therefore repair response) is much greater. The body is forced to maintain the muscle mass, rather than degrade it, resulting in body fat being the primary energy source (if the individual is in a caloric deficit). High rep workouts don't quite work the same. They're middle ground in between general cardio and low rep weight work. Low reps, high weight is the most effective for maintaining muscle mass.

Hypertrophic pathways increase protein synthesis over protein degradation. This is important because it allows for muscle maintenance (or sometimes growth) even in a caloric deficit. Cardio is an ineffective way to lose body fat because it results in everything being burned - muscle, fat, and glycogen. With cardio alone (and no dietary modifications), research has shown time and time again that oxidative ability and fitness increase, but body fat does not change. With cardio and a caloric deficit, you lose muscle. With heavy weightlifting alone, beginners will often reduce their body fat % and increase lean muscle mass. In a caloric deficit, weightlifters have shown to lose predominantly fat compared to those participating in endurance exercise.

Therefore, weightlifting is actually a better means of losing weight than cardio. It stimulates pathways that maintain muscle mass and metabolize fat stores. Endurance pathways metabolize everything, resulting in catabolism of everything. With dietary modifications, weightlifting is always the best way to lose weight. Always.

Again, the problem your making is that aerobic metabolic pathways can in fact be isloated from the rest of the metabolism. That metabolism is an UNINTERRUPTED whole that is tied together. The aerobic machinery is fueled by the substrate pyruvate, which can be produced only thruogh the anaerobic pathway.

 

[Paleo]

First, we need to address some issues. You are overweight because you DO overeat (or have in the past). The types of food you eat aren't as important in weight gain as overall calories. Even if you're eating a 500 calorie surplus of fruits and veggies, you will still gain weight. It's thermodynamics.

If you want to exercise, go ahead and exercise. That will be a great step toward improving your health and losing weight. I suggest nutritional intervention before exercise because most people are concerned with weight before their health. You can start with either exercise or dietary changes alone, but I would suggest only starting with one. You don't want to overburden yourself and get tired of the whole weight loss process. Some people can do it, but I truly believe chances of success are greater if an individual slowly modifies their overall lifestyle.

You can do whatever you like, to be honest. Just make sure you aren't overdoing it. Read the entire fat loss sticky and follow it. You'll start seeing progress no matter what. Also, I don't quite suggest seeing a personal trainer, as you've mentioned in your other thread. Personal trainers typically have minimal certifications and are unqualified to truly write a program for you. I think you'd be wasting your money.

Think! If insulin levels are high even in the face of a calorie defecit, hormone sensitive lipase will be inhibited and and fat out of the adipocytes will become impossible. Metabolism at a Glance

Insulin ia a trump trump hormone....it trumps several other metabolic hormones necessary for fat moblization: epinephrine, grwoth hormone, glucagon...all shut down by elevated levels of insulin. ITS NOT ABOUT CALORIES CONSUMPTION! If an obese person ate lot of calories couldn't it be said that a 7-2 person also ate a lot of calories and became tall?!?! :hmm:

 

[SociallyChallenged]

... another blubbering post by Mr. Ding Dong

No, you said calories count....i said it doesn't.

You don't even know why the first law of thermodynamics doesn't pertain to humans...LOL....you probably don't even know what it is.

Would you like to explain why the law of thermodynamics, which applies to all things in the physical universe, doesn't apply to humans? The fact is that it does - you just aren't including enough variables.

Let's think about this - for an average human being, they will acquire very similar calories from a given volume/type of food. They will also burn a given amount of calories per day, depending on their body's makeup (height, weight, age, body composition defining resting metabolic rate), what foods they eat (affecting the thermic effect of feeding), and what activities they participate in (affecting the thermic effect of activity). There are varying degrees of thermogenic ability, which may partially explain why some individuals tend toward obesity by default. So that's RMR + TEF + TEA + thermogenesis that defines our energy utilization. The first law of thermodynamics DOES apply here. Hormonal state doesn't magically disembowel the first law of thermodynamics, it modifies one of these variables (low thyroxine modifies RMR, genetic predisposition modifies thermogenesis).

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Denatured vs. Undenatured whey protein....whats the difference?

I honestly don't understand what context you're asking this in. This is a fat loss sticky. Individuals trying to lose weight should eat their calories if at all possible to increase hormonal response, resulting in satiation.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Think! If insulin levels are high even in the face of a calorie defecit, hormone sensitive lipase will be inhibited and and fat out of the adipocytes will become impossible. Metabolism at a Glance

Insulin ia a trump trump hormone....it trumps several other metabolic hormones necessary for fat moblization: epinephrine, grwoth hormone, glucagon...all shut down by elevated levels of insulin. ITS NOT ABOUT CALORIES CONSUMPTION! If an obese person ate lot of calories couldn't it be said that a 7-2 person also ate a lot of calories and became tall?!?! :hmm:

...Yet obese individuals (who have decreased insulin sensitivity and increase basal levels of insulin) have a much increased basal level of fatty acid flux when compared to thin individuals. In theory, what you're saying might have merit (minus epinephrine because that trumps all). In research, that's not what is shown.

And your metaphor is silly. They both had to consume excess calories to grow. A baby doesn't get to be 6 feet tall without eating a severe caloric surplus. So yes, someone did eat extra calories in the process of getting tall. You're putting into the wrong context though. The tall individual's body maintained genetic expression while working symbiotically with nutritional status to increase size. The obese individual's nutritional status directed affected gene expression, which led to increased adiposity. One was completely environmentally induced (obesity) while the other was only environmentally enabled (height).

 

[Koing]

Paleo, can you please stop derailing this Sticky. It makes it much harder for a beginner to read it.

If you want to discuss please create a new thread and discuss there. Thanks,

Kind Regards,
Koing

 

[Paleo]

My sincere apologies to the forum members and SociallyChallenged

 

[Aztech]

Are two 15-minute cardio sessions as good as one 30-minute one? I recall reading that it was just as good, but that was a while back in Men's Health, I think.

I'm finally starting to exercise again, and I prefer to break up the cardio since I get bored quite easily on a cardio machine. I've been doing a 15-minute warm-up on an elliptical, then doing some weights, then finishing with a 15-minute stationary bike. I've been working out for a couple of months with no noticeable results and it's getting discouraging. I haven't controlled my eating, so I know that's a big part of it, and I'm gonna start an eating journal today. But I do want to maximize the results of my gym time as well.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Are two 15-minute cardio sessions as good as one 30-minute one? I recall reading that it was just as good, but that was a while back in Men's Health, I think.

I'm finally starting to exercise again, and I prefer to break up the cardio since I get bored quite easily on a cardio machine. I've been doing a 15-minute warm-up on an elliptical, then doing some weights, then finishing with a 15-minute stationary bike. I've been working out for a couple of months with no noticeable results and it's getting discouraging. I haven't controlled my eating, so I know that's a big part of it, and I'm gonna start an eating journal today. But I don't want to maximize the results of my gym time as well.

For health benefits and caloric expenditure, two 15min sessions are similar to the results of one 30min session. There are certain things, like benefits to cholesterol that are duration dependent and may be more affected by one 30min session. However, if you are increasing the intensity during those session since they're shorter, you may even have better results for calorie burn.

Don't get discouraged. Buy a scale, buy some measuring cups, and record everything you eat. This is the biggest part of trying to lose weight.

 

[jackanderson]

Hi,
Thanks for this article.It contains great and unique information. Thanks............

 

[KIAman]

I just wanted to say thanks for the work you put into this very informative post. The P90x diet plan is similar in theory to what you suggest but they never go into much details on why it works.

I do have a question and if it was already asked and answered in a previous post, I'm sorry.

My questions are...

1. When is best time to work out in general? Mornings? Evenings?

2. What effect does sleep have on overall fat loss?

3. I'm currently at around 400 calorie deficit but I'm getting shakey all the time from being hungry. Even if I eat a lot of filling fiber and my stomach feels full, I can't stop the shaking and slight headache from eating less than usual. What can I do about this?

4. How is the fat that is stored internally around your heart and other organs affected from this guide?

Thanks again!

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Hi KIAman,

1) There is no real best time. Sure, hormones fluctuate throughout the day, but the time that you have available to workout is the best one. Research really doesn't show increases in progress based on exercising at a particular time. Just work out at some point

2) Sleep has a lot of effects. If you're not getting enough, it can decrease your resting metabolic rate, suppress your immune system, delay recovery, etc. You should definitely try to get 7-8h. Some people don't need as much as others though so if you feel completely refreshed on something like 6h then more power to you.

3) Well, what are you actual sources of calories? For me, I eat some homemade trail mix if I ever start feeling that way and it helps quite a bit. I throw some apricots, raisins, raw sunflower seeds, and roasted almonds in together. It always perks me up.

4) Visceral body fat (the fat you're talking about) will decrease as you reduce your overall body fat. I haven't read any studies that have ever focused on reduction of visceral fat in particular. Just know that if you decrease your subcutaneous fat levels, you also decrease your visceral fat as well. Also, after you actually lose weight, the goal is to be more active socially and aerobically. This guide is just to improve your health via fat loss and, considering high body fat percentage correlates with many, many other diseases (diabetes, hypertension, dyslipidemia, atherosclerosis, etc), this guide does its job.

 

[Powermoloch]

I'm adding jogging/running into the mix with my strong lifts routine. Is it okay to jog before resistance training ?

I'm shooting for 4 miles per workout and so far it's going great.

Thanks again

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I'm adding jogging/running into the mix with my strong lifts routine. Is it okay to jog before resistance training ?

I'm shooting for 4 miles per workout and so far it's going great.

Thanks again

Are you jogging directly before lifting? It'll affect your strength pretty significantly as you're lifting due to the muscle fatigue. It's fine, but keep that in mind. Typically, if you're going to lift and run on the same day, you want to run in the morning and lift at night to give your body ample time to recover for a proper lifting session. I know not everyone has that amount of time though. Just be careful. Lifting while fatigued can be dangerous if you don't know your limits.

 

[Powermoloch]

Are you jogging directly before lifting? It'll affect your strength pretty significantly as you're lifting due to the muscle fatigue. It's fine, but keep that in mind. Typically, if you're going to lift and run on the same day, you want to run in the morning and lift at night to give your body ample time to recover for a proper lifting session. I know not everyone has that amount of time though. Just be careful. Lifting while fatigued can be dangerous if you don't know your limits.

thank you, i'll keep this in mind and adjust my routine :thumbsup:

 

[Powermoloch]

oh social,

I forgot to ask, with the same topic in mind. Will it be better if i just start my lift and then run ? I know it sounds silly

thanks again !

 

[SociallyChallenged]

oh social,

I forgot to ask, with the same topic in mind. Will it be better if i just start my lift and then run ? I know it sounds silly

thanks again !

Well, lifting and doing cardio in the same session is a tricky subject. If you lift and then run, the running actually inhibits hypertrophy (or building up of muscle) via genetic processes. If you run and then lift, you're too weak to get an appropriately stressful load that will induce hypertrophy. If you're interesting in gaining muscle, these both create problems. However, if you're just looking to get stronger, neural gains can still be made when you lift, then do cardio.

If you wanna gain muscle though, staggering lifting and cardio days is more optimal.

 

[Powermoloch]

Well one thing for sure, I notice a big difference with my squats and deadlifts w/o the jogging. So i'll just jog in between my strong lifts.

I'm really excited with the experience and want to maximize my workout routine.

Today i found out my max deadlift is 225 lbs ! (including the olympic bar). All i have to do is starting to get the technique right and consistent.

I really appreciate your input and thought into this social.

 

[thatsright]

Specifically to SC:

Where did you learn all of this info? Its great and I know helped many people achieve their goals (or on the right track to them). Are you a nutritionist, doctor or go to med school?

You've given great tips about my situation so far, and I thank you!

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Well one thing for sure, I notice a big difference with my squats and deadlifts w/o the jogging. So i'll just jog in between my strong lifts.

I'm really excited with the experience and want to maximize my workout routine.

Today i found out my max deadlift is 225 lbs ! (including the olympic bar). All i have to do is starting to get the technique right and consistent.

I really appreciate your input and thought into this social.

Gotcha. Yeah 3 days of lifting and 3 days of running will be more than enough to improve your fitness on all fronts Keep me posted on your progress. Good luck, bud.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Specifically to SC:

Where did you learn all of this info? Its great and I know helped many people achieve their goals (or on the right track to them). Are you a nutritionist, doctor or go to med school?

You've given great tips about my situation so far, and I thank you!

Well, I have a B.S. in Exercise Biology, with a minor in psych plus plenty of nutrition classes. Mainly, I'm a research junkie. I read up on a lot of research that pertains to muscle gain, fat loss, strength gains, supplements, biomechanics, nutrition, etc. I've had access to almost any journal you can think of since I was 17 due to the perks of being at universities. On top of that, I'm a first year in a Doctorate of Physical Therapy program so I keep learning relevant and interesting info in reference to functional human anatomy, physiology, pathology, etc. Thought about med school, but I like having a life so I decided against it. Made sure I had the grades for it though.

And it's my pleasure. Most people don't have access to the resources I do. I like spreading important info and encouraging people to think about what they do, eat, etc critically. I've been given a lot so this is my way of giving back. I'm glad it's helpful