Fatah Gunmen Seize Palestinian Parliament - UPDATED 1-28-06

[Eddieo]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Originally posted by: Aimster
I don't think they want the destruction of Israel.

The state of Israel is simply wrong in many people's eyes.

The Jews got control of a piece of land that is holy in three religions.

Is this fair to the other religions? No.

It should be controlled by the UN.

If you want to argue this with me , explain to me how a religion of 14 million people has rights to a holy land over the Muslims and Christians. The reason it is not a problem with the Christians is because Christians do not live there today.

Muslims and/or Arabs have absolutely no historic "right" to either Jerusalem or Palestine. The Jews conquered it from the Canaanites, and the Philistines tried to steal it from the Jews but failed. The Romans finally took it, from which it passed to the Byzantine Empire, which became officially Christian in the 4th century AD. The Arabs later took it from the Byzantines. When the Muslims again attacked the Byzantines, the 1st Crusade was launched in response, retaking Jerusalem and founding the Crusader States, which lasted until 1291. The Muslims that originally took it and then retook it from the Crusaders were Arabs and Turks, neither of which HAD EVER LIVED THERE previously. However, during the entire period from its conquest by Rome until Israel's refounding in 1948, Jews HAVE lived there...which makes the Palestinians the interlopers and "occupiers", not the Jews (or just like the Jews, if you prefer).

As you can see, both the Jews AND "Palestinians" conquered it by force of arms from other peoples, so if we're going to skim history looking for such a right, the Jews' claim is by far the stronger since its several thousand years older (as is the Christian "claim") than that of the Muslims, and they've lived there the entire time, which the Muslims/Arabs HAVE NOT. So of the religions you mention, Islam has the weakest and shortest claim to it of the 3. Also, it was INDISPUTABLY "holy" to the Jewish religion thousands of years before either of the other two even existed...so if "religion" is to be the basis of a territorial settlement (which IMO is just ridiculous in the 21st century), the Jews win hands down.

Very nice and detailed. I'd like to see someone comment on this or see a palistine point of view.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Originally posted by: Aimster
I don't think they want the destruction of Israel.

The state of Israel is simply wrong in many people's eyes.

The Jews got control of a piece of land that is holy in three religions.

Is this fair to the other religions? No.

It should be controlled by the UN.

If you want to argue this with me , explain to me how a religion of 14 million people has rights to a holy land over the Muslims and Christians. The reason it is not a problem with the Christians is because Christians do not live there today.

Muslims and/or Arabs have absolutely no historic "right" to either Jerusalem or Palestine. The Jews conquered it from the Canaanites, and the Philistines tried to steal it from the Jews but failed. The Romans finally took it, from which it passed to the Byzantine Empire, which became officially Christian in the 4th century AD. The Arabs later took it from the Byzantines. When the Muslims again attacked the Byzantines, the 1st Crusade was launched in response, retaking Jerusalem and founding the Crusader States, which lasted until 1291. The Muslims that originally took it and then retook it from the Crusaders were Arabs and Turks, neither of which HAD EVER LIVED THERE previously. However, during the entire period from its conquest by Rome until Israel's refounding in 1948, Jews HAVE lived there...which makes the Palestinians the interlopers and "occupiers", not the Jews (or just like the Jews, if you prefer).

As you can see, both the Jews AND "Palestinians" conquered it by force of arms from other peoples, so if we're going to skim history looking for such a right, the Jews' claim is by far the stronger since its several thousand years older (as is the Christian "claim") than that of the Muslims, and they've lived there the entire time, which the Muslims/Arabs HAVE NOT. So of the religions you mention, Islam has the weakest and shortest claim to it of the 3. Also, it was INDISPUTABLY "holy" to the Jewish religion thousands of years before either of the other two even existed...so if "religion" is to be the basis of a territorial settlement (which IMO is just ridiculous in the 21st century), the Jews win hands down.

The Jews are the ones who use religion as a basis for their claim.
The whole point of Israel is a state for Jews.

and I don't know my history very well

but have the Palestinians not lived there much longer than the Jews?
Jesus was a Palestinian, no?

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: chcarnage
Hamas has two faces. They're terrorists, but they also offer welfare to the Palestinians in a region where public welfare is close to nonexistant.

So basically Hamas is like the Godfather. Don't know about you but I wouldn't want the mafia doing any favors for me.

 

[ntdz]

This is bad...However I think there is a chance Hamas will give up their militant ways now that they are legitimately elected and don't need to anymore...

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Aimster
The whole point of Israel is a state for Jews.

When the majority of the world wants to kill you, even after your people have contributed so much to the state of civilization, getting like 0.0000000000000001% of the land is not that much to ask for.

Originally posted by: Aimster
and I don't know my history very well

That much is clear, since you wouldn't be making some of these ridiculous claims if you did.

Originally posted by: Aimster
but have the Palestinians not lived there much longer than the Jews?

No.

They are a mix of people who lived there before the Jews, as well as the people who lived there after, as well as many of the invaders, and Jews themselves.

And even if... when did "living" on the land equate to owning it?

Originally posted by: Aimster
Jesus was a Palestinian, no?

No. Jesus was a Jew.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: ntdz
This is bad...However I think there is a chance Hamas will give up their militant ways now that they are legitimately elected and don't need to anymore...

Think so? Go there and start an anti-Hamas campaign and see how long you live. You can't change a leopards spots. They are thugs and will always be thugs.

 

[DeathReborn]

I think we are seeing possibly the final years of Palestine, unless they revoke terrorism and can make peace with Israel. There is more chance of a Israeli government getting elected with Hamas in power than with Fatah. Still, at least it should speed up the conclusion of an ugly war in a region holding so many "religious" sites.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Doboji
Kinda hard to work on a peace agreement with an organization who declares their entire goal as being your destruction. Kinda hard to work with a group who admits, advocates for, supports, enables, and in fact carries out targeted attacks against innocent civillians on a regular basis.

Hamas has made only one public statement condemning the US that I can find and that was after the US vetoed a UN resolution condemning Israeli military attacks against them in Gaza.

You?re having trouble understanding. The publicly stated goal of Hamas is the destruction of Israel. How can you support an organization like this, let alone negotiate with them? The US supports Israel?s right to exist so therefore, how can Hamas be taken seriously?

yup they can't. and never confuse any claims of "recognition" with actual peace. recognition just means they realize the current fact of israels existence, and they will work to change that in the future. what needs to happen is an actual recognition of a right to exist, not just recognition of existence. its this kind of sliminess that works as pr for these groups when they attempt to portray themselves as reasonable. they are not, they always say they want peace, but their terms garrantee it will never happen. and well, the militant groups have always admitted that any palestinian state is just the first step towards the destruction of israel, militant islam is patient, well atleast thats what they claim. so honest broker for peace? no chance. no chance of peace until the palestinians clense themselves of the desease of islamo-nazism

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Jesus was a Palestinian, no?

No, Jesus was a Jew. Hence all the stories about him being the Jewish Messiah.

 

[Aimster]

Why when I do google hundreds if not thousands of results say

"Palestinian Jew"

Explain please. Thanks.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Why when I do google hundreds if not thousands of results say

"Palestinian Jew"

Explain please. Thanks.

The land of Israel was called Palestine. Thus he was called "palestinian". It would be more accurate to call him a Jewish Hebrew from Palestine.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Jews lived in Palestine; Hence they could be considered as Palestinians.

The difference is that later on after the Jewish population was decimated there were many non-Jews still left and they intermingled with the outer "races" that controlled the area.

When the Jews were being driven out of Europe/Russia in the 20's-30's some came to the ME to follow their dream of a Jewish state.

With the Arab nations siding on the wrong side of WWII (Turks/Ottoman/Axis) the British and those "supported" by the British became the target of frustration. And so continues the sage.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: rahvin
The UN couldn't manage themselves out of a box. Why don't you suggest that Inuit should manage it, they could do a better job than the UN.

The Inuit may be a good choice, just as long as America don't get anywhere near it. With all the corruption scandals and Iraqi mismanagment and stolen funds it truely would be a disaster

Under Security Council Resolution 1483, passed on 22 May 2003, ($6 billion left over from the UN Oil for Food Programme) was transferred into a new account held at the Federal Reserve Bank in New York, called the Development Fund for Iraq (DFI), so that they might be spent by the CPA ?in a transparent manner . . . for the benefit of the Iraqi people?.

The auditors have also discovered that $8.8 billion that passed through the new Iraqi government ministries in Baghdad while Bremer was in charge is unaccounted for, with little prospect of finding out where it went.

Where has all the money gone?

Payment was handed over for projects without any official contract being drawn up or checks on the work carried out.

More than 2,000 contracts were found to be at fault.

One US military assistant is said to have gambled away up to $60,000 while accompanying the Iraqi Olympic team to the Philippines.

Cash meant for Iraqis 'misused'

Originally posted by: Meuge
No. Jesus was a Jew.

And in Islam, Jesus is considered one of God's most beloved and important prophets, a bringer of divine scripture, and also the messiah.

Text

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: Aimster
...but have the Palestinians not lived there much longer than the Jews?
Jesus was a Palestinian, no?

Jesus could only be called "Palestinian" because he lived in "Palestine", a name which came from the Philistines, a foreign people that invaded and briefly succeeded in "vassalizing" the native Jewish tribes. The Hebrews eventually united and smashed the Philistines (c.1000 BC), ending their cohesion as a separate people and reducing them to 5 cities on the southern coast. When Israel was dismembered by the Assyrians & Babylonians, the Philistines, already assimilated by neighboring peoples (Israel and Egypt), passed altogether from history. Their only legacy was their name, which was "Latinized" by the Romans, and "Philistine" became "Palestine". Centuries later, the Roman Empire split into two halves, with Palestine going to the Eastern (Byzantine) half. Centuries after that, the Muslim Arabs emerged from the desert (Arabia) and conquered it from the Byzantines. It was not and HAD NEVER BEEN their home; they invaded and took it from the Christians, who had taken it from the Jews.

The name "Palestine" wasn't used again until thousands of years later, when the Ottoman Empire collapsed after WWI, and it was adopted for the British mandate. And THAT is where the current Palestinians get their name. They are NOT related to the Philistines, who were Europeans from the Mycaenean world (probably Crete), and were neither Arabic nor Muslim (Islam didn't even exist when the Philistines did).

So according to historical fact: 1) the current Palestinians are the most recent inhabitants of the area, even behind Christian Europeans! 2) Jerusalem was holy to both Judaism and Christianity before Islam or the modern Palestinian EVEN EXISTED. 3) Today's Palestinians are Arabs that only arrived in the region in the 600s AD when it was taken from Byzantium, and have absolutely no relation to its previous inhabitants.

 

[blackllotus]

The situation in Palestine is alarmingly similar to the situation in Gemany when the nazis got elected, however now the situation is even more disturbing considering Hamas is a known terrorist group that is supported by its own people.

 

[glenn1]

I might be among the minority, but I don't feel this is worth the teeth gnashing that some are engaging in. Fatah set such an extraordinarily low bar, I don't see how Hamas could be much worse. The Palestinian authority will be the same ghetto slumhouse it's always been, only the landlord has changed.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Jesus was a Palestinian, no?

No.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Aimster
Jesus was a Palestinian, no?

No.

Nope Jesus was black. hehe

 

[filterxg]

I might be the only one who thinks this might be a good thing for peace. Hamas, should they eventually choose to accept Isreal's right to exist, would have the legitamacy to make a deal w/o looking like they were pandering. This might be remembered as the rise of the Palestinian Sharon. A real hardliner, hated as a murderer by the other side, which gives them legitimacy on their own side.

 

[Siwy]

What?s funny about this is that people, who oppose Hamas? existence and especially their future role in Palestinian government, had no problem whatsoever with a terrorist and a war criminal being Prime Minister of Israel.

Hypocrisy at it?s best.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Siwy
What?s funny about this is that people, who oppose Hamas? existence and especially their future role in Palestinian government, had no problem whatsoever with a terrorist and a war criminal being Prime Minister of Israel.

Hypocrisy at it?s best.

It is more that Israel is willing to allow the Palestinians to exist along side and within their country. You do not have reports of Israelies shooting up Palestinian villages inside Israel or send bombers into Gaxz or the West bank to blow up markets.

Yet Hamas continues to try and create terror via suicide bombings and artillery attacks.
They refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist and have openly declared a war against them.

If they are able to continue this attitude as offical representitives of the Palestinian people; they are driving their "country" into a war similar to the other Arab wars. The difference between this one may be that the world will have little sympathy for the issue; due to Hamas acting as an official goverment entity and declaring war on another country.

The UN has sat by during all the other Israel/Arab conflicts and only provided lip service when the Arabs were getting their rear-ends handed to them.
With respect to this situation then UN has been shown to be a paper tiger.

Look at their reaction when Arafat was cowering in his compound - Nothing.
Hamas could easily yank the tigers tail one time to many.

The leadership may be a thorn in the side of the opponent; however the actions of the government become the key.

There can be a stalemate (as with Arafat), acceptance and attempts of cooperation (as evidenced over the past year) or the potential for armed/escalation conflict in the future.

All will rest on the Hamas leadership to demonstrate whoch route they will take immediately (not "give me 6-12 months to bring the internal problems under control").

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Aimster
If you believe in religion.. Israel-Arab conflict will be the end of the world..

There will be a time when the Arabs will get powerful and will be able to destroy the small state of Israel. When this time comes.. Israel will use their nuclear weapons... and well..

Israel only has a few million people. 20% of them are not even Jewish.

Israel has 6million+ people.

I'm an athiest. A non-believer as your religion likes to call it, that according to your holy book should be immediatly killed. Anway, back to the subject. Israel nukeing the middle east would hardly be the end of the world. It would be the end of the middle east, but once the energy situation sorts itself out the rest of the world would move on along much better off.

The book of revelations calls the battle you are predicting to be armageddon. In Armageddon the rest of the surrounding nations gang up and attempt to destroy israel. According to the story a few nations will stand with Israel in defense, many people will die, IIRC more than 60% of both sides. In the end the aggressors against Israel will be defeated but not till the nation of Israel is physically destroyed. At the end of the battle Christ returns, dips his robe in the blood of the dead and the proceeds westward destroying all the wicked on the planet.

In a conflict, America will stand with Israel, I have no doubt there will be other Christian nations that believe the battle is Armageddon and will stand with them as well. The religious right in this country have extremely strong support for Israel for this very reason. If they are on the wrong side in the battle of Armageddon many believe they won't be saved.

Many times the word Armageddon is brought up but what does it actually mean?

All the governments of the world gather together under the Antichrist to battle Christ. World armies gather at Armageddon (the Valley of Megiddo, located in Northern Israel, about 25 miles southwest of the Golan Heights)


Revelation 16

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The actual battle

Revelation 19

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Originally posted by: MegaWorks

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Just proves that, despite the illusion held by the Left that the Palestinians just want peace, the real truth is that they are commited to eternal war with Israel and DO NOT want it to end. Your darling Palestianians are really racist religious fanatics and hatemongering terrorists, the kind of people the Left would do everything to stop if they lived in the USA (and rightly so). They're half Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell and half KKK/Neo-nazi skinhead, but since they're overseas and opposed to the Jews, everybody loves them. Its disgusting.

Go ahead and keep blaming the Jews for all the troubles of the ME, even though they're the ONLY democracy in that entire troublesome region, and the only party in this conflict that really desires peace.

And Iraq is what exactly? A theocracy? Your ignorance is amazing!

I just KNEW some idiot would say Iraq.

Even if we agreed it really is a democracy (and I think that has yet to be decided; will it remain one after we leave? Prove it), then alter my statement to "its one of only two democracies..." and it doesn't change my point at all.

Prove what to you? You saw how many Iraqis went out and voted, isn?t that enough to tell you that these people something tells me that you hate want democracy!

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Originally posted by: MegaWorks

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Just proves that, despite the illusion held by the Left that the Palestinians just want peace, the real truth is that they are commited to eternal war with Israel and DO NOT want it to end. Your darling Palestianians are really racist religious fanatics and hatemongering terrorists, the kind of people the Left would do everything to stop if they lived in the USA (and rightly so). They're half Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell and half KKK/Neo-nazi skinhead, but since they're overseas and opposed to the Jews, everybody loves them. Its disgusting.

Go ahead and keep blaming the Jews for all the troubles of the ME, even though they're the ONLY democracy in that entire troublesome region, and the only party in this conflict that really desires peace.

And Iraq is what exactly? A theocracy? Your ignorance is amazing!

I just KNEW some idiot would say Iraq.

Even if we agreed it really is a democracy (and I think that has yet to be decided; will it remain one after we leave? Prove it), then alter my statement to "its one of only two democracies..." and it doesn't change my point at all.

I believe Lebanon had elections recently as well.

 

[Ferocious]

Hamas wins?

talk about those citizens giving Bush the finger.