FBI seeking to expand powers

[Mean MrMustard]

America is safe with Bush, Rice, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld leading the helm.

Last I checked, they were at the helm well before 9/11/01.

Good job there, buddy.:thumbsup:

 

[jackschmittusa]

Passions

Attacks against America after 9/11: 0.

Attacks against America after George W Bush re-elected: 0.

Attacks against America after Patriot Act: 0.

f this is not an effective argument, then I don't know what is.

It is not an effective argument because it does not show cause and effect.

By your measure of anecdotal evidence, Clinton made us safer because there were no foreign attacks for a longer period of time.

 

[Kibbo]

I don't think anyone can write so easily and yet have no grasp of basic logic. I call shens.

 

[Vic]

Time since 9/11 = 3 years, 6 months, 24 days

Time between 9/11 and the terrorist attack on US soil immediately preceeding = 6 years, 4 months, 22 days

Passion logic that we are safe and that USA Patriot Act has worked because of interval of time since 9/11 = 0


edit: And on that note, you would fscking think that a REAL conservative would be strongly against legislation that is in direct violation of States Rights provided in the Constitution, as the USA Patriot Act is. This is only further proof that those people who call themselves conservatives today are in fact not conservatives.

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: Vic
This is only further proof that those people who call themselves conservatives today are in fact not conservatives.

No kidding. Todays 'conservatives' are looking more and more like liberals with the big government and anti-State Rights way of doing things.

If there's one thing I've noticed now a days. It's that just because someone says he's a Republican, doesn't mean he's a conservative. People like Passions sure as hell aren't conservatives. They might support Bush and/or support the Republican party over the Democrats, but conservatives they are not.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Passions
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7388717/

FBI Director Robert Mueller on Tuesday asked lawmakers to expand the bureau?s ability to obtain records without first asking a judge, and he joined Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in seeking that every temporary provision of the anti-terrorism Patriot Act be renewed.


This is exactly what the law enforcement of America needs, MORE POWER! We need to fight this war on terrorism aggressively, not with our agents hands tied to their backs. I highly approve of such a measure. Liberal treemongers will say that this is striping our country of freedoms, but we are at war and measures must be taken to counter it.

I will just state this fact. Ever since 9/11 and the Patriot Act, have you seen any terrorist act in America since? YEAH I THOUGHT SO. Liberals speak words, while Republicans protect our country. RECOGNIZE.

*shakes sarcasm meter*

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: halik
*shakes sarcasm meter*

Given his posting history, I'm pretty sure that wasn't sarcasm. And given his macho "We need to be big and strong attitute" I'm also willing to bet that he's a kid who wouldn't know a conservative if one jumped up and bit him in the A$$.

 

[colonel]

every inch of freedom we give to the goverment will going to hurt our future children. dont let em take our rights!!!

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Passions
Attacks against America after 9/11: 0.
Attacks against America after George W Bush re-elected: 0.
Attacks against America after Patriot Act: 0.

Attacks against America while Bush is in Office: 1

(D'oh!)

 

[Yellow Dog]

How quickly cowards are willing to give up freedoms for a false sense of secruity.
We have become a nation of wimps and cowards like this are only speeding up the loss of freedom for everyone.

 

[Speedy3D!]

Originally posted by: Passions
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7388717/

FBI Director Robert Mueller on Tuesday asked lawmakers to expand the bureau?s ability to obtain records without first asking a judge, and he joined Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in seeking that every temporary provision of the anti-terrorism Patriot Act be renewed.


This is exactly what the law enforcement of America needs, MORE POWER! We need to fight this war on terrorism aggressively, not with our agents hands tied to their backs. I highly approve of such a measure. Liberal treemongers will say that this is striping our country of freedoms, but we are at war and measures must be taken to counter it.

I will just state this fact. Ever since 9/11 and the Patriot Act, have you seen any terrorist act in America since? YEAH I THOUGHT SO. Liberals speak words, while Republicans protect our country. RECOGNIZE.

Wow, this is some kind of parody right? Nobody could possibly be as simple minded as you portray yourself to be with this statement.

However, Since you seem to feel that law enforcement needs "MORE POWER!" let me pose a simple question to you: How far are you willing to let it go?

Personally, I feel that it has gone too far already. However I?d love to see how far you?re willing take it so that you can feel ?secure.? Or is this already far enough?

In the meantime, ponder this quote by a famous American that I feel is highly applicable to this discussion: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Passions


Attacks against America after 9/11: 0.
Attacks against America after George W Bush re-elected: 0.
Attacks against America after Patriot Act: 0.




Whoops, you forgot about the Anthrax.

 

[skull]

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: arsbanned
If Passions can respond to Rainsford intelligently and without resorting to name calling and gross generalizations, I'll be impressed. I'd like to see a reasoned discussion of this issue.

Attacks against America after 9/11: 0.
Attacks against America after George W Bush re-elected: 0.
Attacks against America after Patriot Act: 0.

If this is not an effective argument, then I don't know what is. Spacious Reasoning? Call it anything fancy you want, the truth is there. Maybe it is by pure luck we haven't been attacked, maybe giving the FBI more power is going to create a convoluted mess, but the facts stand. America is safe with Bush, Rice, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld leading the helm.

Prove it wrong. List me terrorist attacks on our homeland after 9/11 please. That's right, you can't. And as much as your blind hatred for our leadership leads you astray, you must admit that your freedom is safer with Republicans in house.

Part of my freedom of being an american is a little thing called the bill of rights. The 4th amendment protects me from unreasonable search and seizure. The powers you want for the FBI infringe on my constitutional rights. Therefore you are not making my freedom safer you are obliterating it. I'm tired of you people telling the tree hugging hippies to move somewhere else if we don't like it. You need to move to soviet russia where you belong.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: arsbanned
If Passions can respond to Rainsford intelligently and without resorting to name calling and gross generalizations, I'll be impressed. I'd like to see a reasoned discussion of this issue.

Attacks against America after 9/11: 0.
Attacks against America after George W Bush re-elected: 0.
Attacks against America after Patriot Act: 0.

If this is not an effective argument, then I don't know what is. Spacious Reasoning? Call it anything fancy you want, the truth is there. Maybe it is by pure luck we haven't been attacked, maybe giving the FBI more power is going to create a convoluted mess, but the facts stand. America is safe with Bush, Rice, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld leading the helm.

Prove it wrong. List me terrorist attacks on our homeland after 9/11 please. That's right, you can't. And as much as your blind hatred for our leadership leads you astray, you must admit that your freedom is safer with Republicans in house.

I don't have to "prove it wrong", you're arguing the wrong point. No one is debating the number of attacks on our homeland, at least I wasn't. I agree that (disregarding the Anthrax for the sake of argument), there haven't been any attacks against America since 9/11, Dubya's re-election or the passage of the Patriot Act. Those are the facts.

But what I do disagree with is your argument that America is safe with Bush, Rice, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld at the helm...mostly because you have no argument. The fact that America is safe at the same time Bush is in charge doesn't mean he has anything to do with it. We might be just as safe without Bush and the Patriot Act. The point of the "Tiger Rock" story is that two things being related doesn't mean one caused the other.

Here's a better example. Shortly after 9/11, I grew a beard. I had just started college and I wanted a new look. It looked good, so I have kept it ever since. Now since we haven't been attacked ever since I've had a beard, I could say "Attacks against America since I grew a beard: 0" and suggest that my having a beard was a magical anti-terrorist shield. We all know that's not true, and we know that because I can't possibly show how have a beard has thwarted any terrorist attacks or reduced international support for terrorism. Without that logical explanation, simply showing two things are related proves nothing. Maybe Bush and the Patriot Act have made us safer, so tell me how. Where's the link?

You're wrong about me blindly hating our leadership, my only motive here is to think about the expansion of government powers using a logical approach. And it's not because I want to bash Bush or the Republicans, it's because "tiger rock" solutions are very expensive, often have negative side effects without actually making us any safer, and distract us from doing things that will really protect us. It's that last one that really gets me, because we're not looking for security theater here, we are actually trying to protect this country.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Passions
Attacks against America after 9/11: 0.
Attacks against America after George W Bush re-elected: 0.
Attacks against America after Patriot Act: 0.

Attacks against America while Bush is in Office: 1

(D'oh!)

American deaths from terror attacks while the Propagandist was in office:
~2,900

American deaths from the Propagandist's "war on terror":
Iraq: 1,752
Afghanistan: 166


Total American blood on the Propagandist's hands:
4,818

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Passions
Attacks against America after 9/11: 0.
Attacks against America after George W Bush re-elected: 0.
Attacks against America after Patriot Act: 0.

Attacks against America while Bush is in Office: 1

(D'oh!)

American deaths from terror attacks while the Propagandist was in office:
~2,900

American deaths from the Propagandist's "war on terror":
Iraq: 1,752
Afghanistan: 166


Total American blood on the Propagandist's hands:
4,818

People like Passions don't care about deathtolls. They really don't. They're blood-thirsty mongrels. They like killing "towel-heads" and it doesn't have to be the right ones. The GOP has mastered the art of appealing to the lowest common denominator.

 

[Passions]

So are you telling me that the Bush administration is out to nail everyday Americans? That the FBI is ripping the Constitution to shreds and imposing their own will on the people? :roll: You guys think this is the Third Reich in 2005 America.

Please educate yourselves.

http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/

Read the clip of the Declaration of Independence they put up there. "...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted..." EXACTLY. MY. POINT. Governments are put into place to secure the rights of people and protect us. You guys just want to let all the terrorists frolick in America and play in the forests with minks. The Patriot Act PROTECTS America. The FBI PROTECTS Americans.



The Department of Justice?s first priority is to prevent future terrorist attacks. Since its passage following the September 11, 2001 attacks, the Patriot Act has played a key part - and often the leading role - in a number of successful operations to protect innocent Americans from the deadly plans of terrorists dedicated to destroying America and our way of life. While the results have been important, in passing the Patriot Act, Congress provided for only modest, incremental changes in the law. Congress simply took existing legal principles and retrofitted them to preserve the lives and liberty of the American people from the challenges posed by a global terrorist network.

 

[conjur]

Save the BS propaganda for your postings at hannity.com

 

[Abraxas]

Passions, you just don't get it. They are saying you have yet to make the case it does protect America. Just because there has not been another attack since the Patriot Act does not mean it is actually preventing attacks. The fact that here not having been another terrorist attack since I started drinking Orange Juice regularly means that my Orange Juice consumption is magically defending us. You have established correlation, not causation.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Abraxas
Passions, you just don't get it. They are saying you have yet to make the case it does protect America. Just because there has not been another attack since the Patriot Act does not mean it is actually preventing attacks. The fact that here not having been another terrorist attack since I started drinking Orange Juice regularly means that my Orange Juice consumption is magically defending us. You have established correlation, not causation.

Does your oj have added calcium?

 

[Abraxas]

It does!

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Abraxas
It does!

TADA! Thank you for saving me from OBL!!!

 

[MonkeyK]

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: arsbanned
If Passions can respond to Rainsford intelligently and without resorting to name calling and gross generalizations, I'll be impressed. I'd like to see a reasoned discussion of this issue.

Attacks against America after 9/11: 0.
Attacks against America after George W Bush re-elected: 0.
Attacks against America after Patriot Act: 0.

If this is not an effective argument, then I don't know what is. Spacious Reasoning? Call it anything fancy you want, the truth is there. Maybe it is by pure luck we haven't been attacked, maybe giving the FBI more power is going to create a convoluted mess, but the facts stand. America is safe with Bush, Rice, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld leading the helm.

Prove it wrong. List me terrorist attacks on our homeland after 9/11 please. That's right, you can't. And as much as your blind hatred for our leadership leads you astray, you must admit that your freedom is safer with Republicans in house.

Attacks against America since Apple introduced the iPod: 0.
The iPod is our most effective tool in the war against terrer!

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: MonkeyK

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: arsbanned
If Passions can respond to Rainsford intelligently and without resorting to name calling and gross generalizations, I'll be impressed. I'd like to see a reasoned discussion of this issue.

Attacks against America after 9/11: 0.
Attacks against America after George W Bush re-elected: 0.
Attacks against America after Patriot Act: 0.

If this is not an effective argument, then I don't know what is. Spacious Reasoning? Call it anything fancy you want, the truth is there. Maybe it is by pure luck we haven't been attacked, maybe giving the FBI more power is going to create a convoluted mess, but the facts stand. America is safe with Bush, Rice, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld leading the helm.

Prove it wrong. List me terrorist attacks on our homeland after 9/11 please. That's right, you can't. And as much as your blind hatred for our leadership leads you astray, you must admit that your freedom is safer with Republicans in house.

Attacks against America since Apple introduced the iPod: 0.
The iPod is our most effective tool in the war against terrer!

lol, the little MP3 player that could

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Passions
So are you telling me that the Bush administration is out to nail everyday Americans? That the FBI is ripping the Constitution to shreds and imposing their own will on the people? :roll: You guys think this is the Third Reich in 2005 America.

Please educate yourselves.

http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/

Read the clip of the Declaration of Independence they put up there. "...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted..." EXACTLY. MY. POINT. Governments are put into place to secure the rights of people and protect us. You guys just want to let all the terrorists frolick in America and play in the forests with minks. The Patriot Act PROTECTS America. The FBI PROTECTS Americans.



The Department of Justice?s first priority is to prevent future terrorist attacks. Since its passage following the September 11, 2001 attacks, the Patriot Act has played a key part - and often the leading role - in a number of successful operations to protect innocent Americans from the deadly plans of terrorists dedicated to destroying America and our way of life. While the results have been important, in passing the Patriot Act, Congress provided for only modest, incremental changes in the law. Congress simply took existing legal principles and retrofitted them to preserve the lives and liberty of the American people from the challenges posed by a global terrorist network.

Bullsh!t. Everything about USA Patriot and the FBI is to target domestic "threats" inside the US while our borders remain WIDE open under the Bush Admin.
If anything, USA Patriot provides a false sense of security, as your attitude clearly reflects.
Were Al Queda to attack US soil again, I'm sure they would find it easier than ever before. But God protect the US citizen who happens to check the wrong book out of the public library!

And your quoting of the DoI is a crock of sh!t. Jefferson is rolling in his grave at your hypocracy.