No, that is not false. The US recognizes its citizens as being only citizens of the US. Have some caselaw to back your propoisiton up? I have several years of being an immigration attorney to back mine up.
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Someone said the US does not recognize dual-citizenship. That's false, the US does.
If you think the US doesn't have spies in Israel, you are severely naive.
Originally posted by: Pers
Originally posted by: Frenchie
Mine do as well, but I prefer to not be a hypocrite.
so in an effort to not be a hypocrite you also prob. want us to not fight terrorism because we've sponsored it in the past? instead of being a hypocrite you're sounding like a moron.
You are letting emotion enter into a foreign relations discussion. Foreign relations have nothing to do with emotion; ie. "friendship" or "gratitude". The US does not give a damn about Israel and Israel does not give a damn about the US. They play each other for their own gain, as they should. They are only concerned with their own country. When it's in the interests of the US to be "friendly" with Israel, they appear so. But don't be naive and assume that there is actualy friendly feelings between the US and Israel. The second that the US government decides that it's not in their best interest to be friendly with Israel they will drop them like a hot potato. And likewise, Israel does what it feels it should do for the good of Israel. There is no "gratitude" in the larger scheme, all that stuff is just the image being projected. The US government understands that, and I'm sure Tel Aviv is chock full of US spies.Originally posted by: kage69
If you think the US doesn't have spies in Israel, you are severely naive.
After they creamed the Liberty, I guess we saw cause to keep an eye on them. Sue us. This isn't the same as biting the hand that feeds/protects you, I think it's closer to 'learning from experience.'
You are letting emotion enter into a foreign relations discussion. Foreign relations have nothing to do with emotion; ie. "friendship" or "gratitude". The US does not give a damn about Israel and Israel does not give a damn about the US
When it's in the interests of the US to be "friendly" with Israel, they appear so. But don't be naive and assume that there is actualy friendly feelings between the US and Israel. The second that the US government decides that it's not in their best interest to be friendly with Israel they will drop them like a hot potato.
nd likewise, Israel does what it feels it should do for the good of Israel. There is no "gratitude" in the larger scheme, all that stuff is just the image being projected. The US government understands that, and I'm sure Tel Aviv is chock full of US spies.
Originally posted by: kage69
You are letting emotion enter into a foreign relations discussion. Foreign relations have nothing to do with emotion; ie. "friendship" or "gratitude". The US does not give a damn about Israel and Israel does not give a damn about the US
It's not about me at all, it's about history and those who have learned by it. Unfortunetly you are wrong, emotions do play a role in foreign politics, would that they didn't though. This is compounded when you have a particulary ideological admin in office as we currently do. I can't say whether or not Israel gives a damn about the US, but I know the US gives more than a rat's ass. Please refer to our history of supporting Israel financially, militarily, and politically, then realize a powerful Jewish-American lobby operates within the US towards the benefit of Israel.
When it's in the interests of the US to be "friendly" with Israel, they appear so. But don't be naive and assume that there is actualy friendly feelings between the US and Israel. The second that the US government decides that it's not in their best interest to be friendly with Israel they will drop them like a hot potato.
Actually, since 2000 the US has backed Tel Aviv on a number of issues that weren't exactly helpful to the US. There are indeed friendly feelings between the US and Israel, although they exist primarily between the military branches, not so much their governments (from what I've read anyway).
nd likewise, Israel does what it feels it should do for the good of Israel. There is no "gratitude" in the larger scheme, all that stuff is just the image being projected. The US government understands that, and I'm sure Tel Aviv is chock full of US spies.
While I'm not arguing that fact that there are US spies in Israel, I don't think it's as many you seem to suggest. Allegiance to faith always seems to override allegiance to states. Sure there are US spies in Israel, and with damn good reason.
Again, I'll have to disagree. I don't think emotion plays a part in anything here. It's all about looking out for the best interests of your country. The emotion is all about projecting the image you want to be precieved in.Originally posted by: kage69
It's not about me at all, it's about history and those who have learned by it. Unfortunetly you are wrong, emotions do play a role in foreign politics, would that they didn't though. This is compounded when you have a particulary ideological admin in office as we currently do.
While many people who are not involved in government affairs will think and say that the US government is stupid, I don't think so. I am not involved either, and I may not agree with policy of the government, but I doubt the government is stupid. Sure, there's a powerful lobby, but I really don't think the US will allow a lobby to lead the country to the detriment of the United States. I know the rabid anti-Israel crowd will say so, but come on, let's be realistic. The US is not dumb or stupid.I can't say whether or not Israel gives a damn about the US, but I know the US gives more than a rat's ass. Please refer to our history of supporting Israel financially, militarily, and politically, then realize a powerful Jewish-American lobby operates within the US towards the benefit of Israel.
Like what? And how can you possibly know if it was or was not in the best interests of the country without being privy to all the information?Actually, since 2000 the US has backed Tel Aviv on a number of issues that weren't exactly helpful to the US.
Military branches do not make policy, governments do. I don't see what the terrible thing is if if the Israeli and US militaries have some sort of comraderie.There are indeed friendly feelings between the US and Israel, although they exist primarily between the military branches, not so much their governments (from what I've read anyway).
Well, Israel would tell you there is damn good reason why they have spies here. Information on Iran is crucial to the continued existance of the State of Israel. Again, I'll argue that there are no loyalties or friendships between countries. Just interests. Every country does what it feels it must do to protect it's own interests. The US does it, Israel does it and so does every country around the world. I really believe that.While I'm not arguing that fact that there are US spies in Israel, I don't think it's as many you seem to suggest. Allegiance to faith always seems to override allegiance to states. Sure there are US spies in Israel, and with damn good reason.
Originally posted by: Frenchie
Originally posted by: Pers
Originally posted by: Frenchie
Mine do as well, but I prefer to not be a hypocrite.
so in an effort to not be a hypocrite you also prob. want us to not fight terrorism because we've sponsored it in the past? instead of being a hypocrite you're sounding like a moron.
Sorry, but at no time did I ever say that any spies in the US should not be prosecuted. To the contrary, I beleive they should. And although we may commit acts which may be considered terrorism, I fully believe that we should likewise fight terrorism. Hmmmm. As to the moron crack, I'll let that slide. Those that dont have ground to stand on typically default to name calling...
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Like what? And how can you possibly know if it was or was not in the best interests of the country without being privy to all the information?
While many people who are not involved in government affairs will think and say that the US government is stupid, I don't think so. I am not involved either, and I may not agree with policy of the government, but I doubt the government is stupid. Sure, there's a powerful lobby, but I really don't think the US will allow a lobby to lead the country to the detriment of the United States. I know the rabid anti-Israel crowd will say so, but come on, let's be realistic. The US is not dumb or stupid.
Military branches do not make policy, governments do. I don't see what the terrible thing is if if the Israeli and US militaries have some sort of comraderie.
Well, Israel would tell you there is damn good reason why they have spies here. Information on Iran is crucial to the continued existance of the State of Israel. Again, I'll argue that there are no loyalties or friendships between countries. Just interests. Every country does what it feels it must do to protect it's own interests. The US does it, Israel does it and so does every country around the world. I really believe that
Do you expect the US to do something which is not in it's best interests to appease someone else? If the US government determined that it's in the best interest of the country to continue it's support for Israel, I really think it would be foolish to stop that because someone else doesn't like it.Originally posted by: kage69
The Bush admin's rabid support for Israel of late has caused our already low reputation in the ME to quicken it's descent. Using a veto at the UN on Israel's behalf sure didn't help. The US has shown itself to be overwhelming in favor of the Israelis over Muslims, and that perception has hurt the US, particulary concerning Bush's Grand Adventure (who knows? perhaps if we acted more impartially Iran would be doing a better job of stopping people crossing the border to fight US soldiers).
Regarding the Liberty incident, neither you or I know what really happened. Also, I don't see what the current admin. has to do with the Liberty. It happened a long time ago during a different administration, so I don't see what relevance it has here.Well, our president at the time allowed said lobby to discredit and invalidate the deaths of 34 US sailors, and then go on to blackball the survivors and their accounts of the Liberty incident. Many (myself included) think they were instrumental in making sure the testimony of the survivors was never even heard at the inquiry. Our obligation to help allies should end when they kill our people, and then lie to cover it up. Current admin aside, I will agree, the US is not dumb or stupid.
So what's the point?I'm aware of that. I didn't make the comraderie out to be a bad thing, I only said that it exists.
Maybe they are!I'm sure they would, maybe they should try spying on Iran though!
I don't see how it indicates otherwise. All these countries continue to play friendly with each other because it serves their purposes, not because they are really "friendly" or "loyal".You can argue that if you wish, although the relationships (particulary in the intelligence field) between the US, Britain, Canada and Australia seems to indicate otherwise. It was withstood even the broad division of positions on Iraq, and will continue on.
Well, Israel would tell you there is damn good reason why they have spies here. Information on Iran is crucial to the continued existance of the State of Israel. Again, I'll argue that there are no loyalties or friendships between countries. Just interests. Every country does what it feels it must do to protect it's own interests. The US does it, Israel does it and so does every country around the world. I really believe that.
Does this ridiculous assertion require a response? Hmm... Religious reasons, eh? That's why all previous administrations have supported Israel financially? Hey wait, are we supporting Egypt for religious reasons too? :roll:Originally posted by: Infohawk
Okay... so if this is a dog eat dog world can we stop funelling money to Israel then? If you want to help them out for religious reasons, send a check instead of my taxpayer money, mmkay?Well, Israel would tell you there is damn good reason why they have spies here. Information on Iran is crucial to the continued existance of the State of Israel. Again, I'll argue that there are no loyalties or friendships between countries. Just interests. Every country does what it feels it must do to protect it's own interests. The US does it, Israel does it and so does every country around the world. I really believe that.
Originally posted by: faiznne
Hmm, it seems like the FBI is focusing their investigation on AIPAC-- the 2nd most powerful lobbying group in the U.S. The Jews have a strong supporter in Washington, DC. AIPAC has vehemently denied any allegations of spying on their "friend/ally."
U.S. inquiry on Iran focuses on pro-Israel organization
FBI agents have briefed top White House, Pentagon and State Department officials on the probe in recent days. Based on those briefings, officials said, the bureau appears to be looking into other controversies that have roiled the Bush administration, some of which also touch Feith's office.
They include how the Iraqi National Congress, a former exile group backed by the Pentagon, allegedly received highly classified U.S. intelligence on Iran; the leaking of the name of CIA officer Valerie Plame to reporters; and the production of bogus documents suggesting that Iraq tried to buy uranium for nuclear weapons from the African country of Niger. Bush repeated the Niger claim in making the case for war against Iraq.
"The whole ball of wax" was how one U.S. official privy to the briefings described the inquiry.