FDR on the Financial Crisis

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yeah, let hope we don't repeat the failures of the past by doing what FDR did with the "new deal".

Luckily for us the public has rejected the types who rewrite history on subjects like FDR such as you are doing. Reagan and his ilk tried, and failed. Time to move on to what we know works.

Nobody is rewriting history, only uncovering the propganda we are taught within the public school systems. Many honest economists will admit FDR hurt as much as he helped. He experimented, experiementing equals uncertaintly, uncertaintly means nobody is going to invest and the economy suffers.

If FDR's policies were so great why the recession in 1937-38 years after his reform? Why 20% unemployment in 1940? Why did it take until the early 50's for the stock market to recover to 1929 levels? His crop programs were terrible, put more people in starvation than helped. The TVA forcefully moved many black sharecroppers off their land without adequate compensation.

Now he did do some good as well. The SEC, FDIC, implenting laws allowing unions, a min wage, and more regulating of the financial markets. But the romatic view of FDR's new deal policies are overblown imo.

I asked you this before. Where is your proof that unemployment was 20% in 1940, all other sources point to mid-teens.

I will have to conceed that point. I have read the 20% somewhere and it stuck. From all available sources I can find it was 14.6% in 1940. The BLS doesnt go back past 1948.

So his policies reduced unemployment 40%. That's not failure.

I am not claiming the new deal a failure. I am claiming it isnt the glorious thing everybody makes it out to be.

 

[Farang]

How did you not say the New Deal was a failure? You explicitly said it was a "failure of the past."

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Farang
How did you not say the New Deal was a failure? You explicitly said it was a "failure of the past."

I did? Where?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Farang
How did you not say the New Deal was a failure? You explicitly said it was a "failure of the past."

I said that. Read and pay attention much?


However, my post was in response to the OP. Here, I'll repost my first post so you don't attempt to twist it.

Yeah, let hope we don't repeat the failures of the past by doing what FDR did with the "new deal".

 

[Farang]

Nevermind.. American flag avatar conservative mix-up

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yeah, let hope we don't repeat the failures of the past by doing what FDR did with the "new deal".

Luckily for us the public has rejected the types who rewrite history on subjects like FDR such as you are doing. Reagan and his ilk tried, and failed. Time to move on to what we know works.

Nobody is rewriting history, only uncovering the propganda we are taught within the public school systems. Many honest economists will admit FDR hurt as much as he helped. He experimented, experiementing equals uncertaintly, uncertaintly means nobody is going to invest and the economy suffers.

If FDR's policies were so great why the recession in 1937-38 years after his reform? Why 20% unemployment in 1940? Why did it take until the early 50's for the stock market to recover to 1929 levels? His crop programs were terrible, put more people in starvation than helped. The TVA forcefully moved many black sharecroppers off their land without adequate compensation.

Now he did do some good as well. The SEC, FDIC, implenting laws allowing unions, a min wage, and more regulating of the financial markets. But the romatic view of FDR's new deal policies are overblown imo.

I asked you this before. Where is your proof that unemployment was 20% in 1940, all other sources point to mid-teens.

I will have to conceed that point. I have read the 20% somewhere and it stuck. From all available sources I can find it was 14.6% in 1940. The BLS doesnt go back past 1948.

So his policies reduced unemployment 40%. That's not failure.

I am not claiming the new deal a failure. I am claiming it isnt the glorious thing everybody makes it out to be.

Compared to what non-war 1940 countries? We did pretty dang well compared to the peer groups.

 

[ITJunkie]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yeah, let hope we don't repeat the failures of the past by doing what FDR did with the "new deal".

Luckily for us the public has rejected the types who rewrite history on subjects like FDR such as you are doing. Reagan and his ilk tried, and failed. Time to move on to what we know works.

Nobody is rewriting history, only uncovering the propganda we are taught within the public school systems. Many honest economists will admit FDR hurt as much as he helped. He experimented, experiementing equals uncertaintly, uncertaintly means nobody is going to invest and the economy suffers.

If FDR's policies were so great why the recession in 1937-38 years after his reform? Why 20% unemployment in 1940? Why did it take until the early 50's for the stock market to recover to 1929 levels? His crop programs were terrible, put more people in starvation than helped. The TVA forcefully moved many black sharecroppers off their land without adequate compensation.

Now he did do some good as well. The SEC, FDIC, implenting laws allowing unions, a min wage, and more regulating of the financial markets. But the romatic view of FDR's new deal policies are overblown imo.

Well spoken Gen! :thumbsup:

Partisanship isn't just for politics but if you are willing to look outside the talking heads and their sound bites you can find enough information to form your own "truths" on history. Unfortunately many still can't seem to move beyond what the morons in today's media spout off as truth!

 

[manowar821]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UMpjpuVors

Yaaay...

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yeah, let hope we don't repeat the failures of the past by doing what FDR did with the "new deal".

This

This++

And if your still basing your knowledge of FDR on your 4th grade reader that told you FDR was great and he "saved us from the depression" you need to get into the facts. FDR prolonged the depression.

Amazon.com: FDR's Folly: How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yeah, let hope we don't repeat the failures of the past by doing what FDR did with the "new deal".

Sadly I think that's where it's headed. Another massive move to socialism.
:brokenheart:

lol FDR worshippers love to ignore the fact that FDR extended the crisis and got "bailed out" by WW2.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yeah, let hope we don't repeat the failures of the past by doing what FDR did with the "new deal".

This

This++

And if your still basing your knowledge of FDR on your 4th grade reader that told you FDR was great and he "saved us from the depression" you need to get into the facts. FDR prolonged the depression.

Amazon.com: FDR's Folly: How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression

This book is utterly biased revisionist conservative pr0n with a smidgen of BS economics.
Thouroughly debunked by even a laymen if willing to do his homework.

"Essays on the Great Depression" by Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke buries this toilet paper in a binding.

Foxnewsification of history FTL.
But oh well, conservatives will still read it as it reinforces what they already want to believe bullshit or not.
We would all be living in another country after a revolution or probably not born thanks to massive poverty if not for FDR. And that is a fact. FDR saved our asses although he was no saint himself I will be the first to admit.
But you know, whatever smears a good Democrat president, full speed ahead. Not like conservative philosophy ever tries to be accurate when it comes to passing the buck of their screwups when a Dem can be blamed.
Some good debunkage from a review:





The brilliant economics book by Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke called "Essays on the Great Depression" thoroughly refuts "FDR's Folly." Read Bernanke's book yourself and compare it to Powell's "FDR's Folly." You will find that "FDR's Folly" does not stand up to scrutiny. Use your critical thinking skills and check the data yourself.

According to Bernanke on page 253, "The New Deal era, 1933-41, was a period of general economic growth, set back only by the 1937-38 recession." GDP grow over 50% during 1933-1937! Bernanke concludes that the economic numbers show that both real wages and productivity grew significantly during that era. Not only did the depression end, replaced with economic growth, but the living standards improved.

Bernanke also states on page 248 that "between 1933 and 1937, employment in U.S. manufacturing rose by 3.4 percent PER QUARTER [!], and output by 5.0 percent per quarter. The recession of 1937-38 was followed by another strong recovery: quarterly growth rates for manufacturing employment, hours, and input in 1938-40 were 1.8, 2.8, and 4.9 percent, respectively." Buy Bernanke's book and read it.

The statistics show that the New Deal was effective. I encourage you to look up the GDP numbers yourself on the Internet. GDP grew over 50% in FDR's first term. Yet Powell leaves out these important statistics in his book.

Think about that. Use your critical thinking skills. Do your own research. Why does Powell not include these important statistics?

The New Deal also built the foundation for the prosperity of the post-war boom and the enormous expansion of the middle class.

Yet Powell never mentions any of that. Instead he only vaguely refers to the data from the 1937-38 recession period, not informing readers of the strong economic growth under Roosevelt before and after the 1937-38 recession.

According to Conrad Black in his biography of Franklin Roosevelt, "Unemployment had descended by late spring [of 1937] to about 12 percent, barely a third of the March 1933 percentage, and only about 4 percent when the Hopkins and Ickes job-creation programs are taken into account [PWA, WPA, etc.]... In the spring of 1937 the country had pulled ahead of 1929 output levels [the economic peak before the Great Depression began]."

Not many people realize that the government did not even officially track the unemployment rate at that time, that's how limited the government was at the time the Great Depression started. The employment statistics that were compiled later were estimates, and those estimates excluded the hundreds of thousands of jobs that the New Deal created to put people to work building dams, bridges, tunnels, locks, aqueducts, parks, schools, and thousands of other structures. When you include those jobs, the unemployment rate fell to around 4%. Yet Powell does not mention this.

Powell's main thesis is that free markets would have corrected themselves without any intervention from Roosevelt and, in fact, Roosevelt made it worse. That is not true. Bernanke systematically shows that the markets sustained such large shocks that the markets could not self-correct. Bernanke says that the gold standard caused the monetary contraction that caused the Great Depression. There never would have been a recovery had Roosevelt not removed USA from the gold standard. The banking system had totally collapsed and had to be saved by Roosevelt's intervention. Roosevelt's record is impressive in many ways.

Before Roosevelt took office, America had been in a recession for three painful years under Herbert Hoover. The markets did not self-correct. Nobody knew what to do.

Because the markets had not self-corrected, Roosevelt said that he was going to experiment. He said that we have to do something, anything. Some of his experiments were brilliant. Some were counterproductive. Some were strange. For every two things that Roosevelt did right, he did one that was wrong.

Powell exagerates the mistakes, and he leaves out the most important historical facts and statistics. Look up the economic numbers. Roosevelt achieved some truly great things.

There had been many depressions in American history prior to Roosevelt. There has never been another depression since Franklin Roosevelt. Roosevelt was able to forever banish depressions from American economic history through his innovative economic reforms.

Powell says that markets will self-correct when there is a depression. Roosevelt simply got rid of depressions forever. That is a truly great achievement! There has never been a bank panic since. There has never been that kind of suffering again. And by the way, Roosevelt's GDP growth is still the highest period of GDP growth on record. Check the numbers.

Buy Bernanke's book on the Great Depression. You can also find a speech on the Internet by Bernanke about the Great Depression. Go read it. Use your critical thinking skills.

 

[Jhhnn]

There had been many depressions in American history prior to Roosevelt. There has never been another depression since Franklin Roosevelt. Roosevelt was able to forever banish depressions from American economic history through his innovative economic reforms.

Yeh, but many of those reforms have been systematically dismantled over the last 25 years, and new tools of financial flimflammery invented that have not been addressed for what they are...

Much of what the usual rightwing punditry claims is also debunked In Galbraith's work The Great Crash, which has been in print continuously since 1955... A very brief synopsis is here, and parallels to the current situation are close enough for some serious alarm...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Crash,_1929

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yeah, let hope we don't repeat the failures of the past by doing what FDR did with the "new deal".

Luckily for us the public has rejected the types who rewrite history on subjects like FDR such as you are doing. Reagan and his ilk tried, and failed. Time to move on to what we know works.

Uhh... how is opining that FDR's "new deal" was a failure(and part of our problem today even) rewriting history?

Price controls? The abomination called social security? Food production controls? And many other things(some of which were struck down due to their unconstitutionality)


It's a shame that kids these days aren't taught real history. They just seem to get the sugar coated BS...

This is why I get all of my facts from conservapedia. It's the only trustworthy source of history :thumbsup: FDR was a puppy murdering communist, everyone knows that. And he was probably gay.

Those who say that FDR did good and bad are the ones who got this correct. Not all of his policies were successful, but not all of them were failures, either. He saw a clearly broken system in need of fixing, and he tried a lot of new things. His efforts did NOT end the depression, but claims that he managed to extend the depression are dubious at best and easily debunked. In other words, the system is still broken, but for some reason conservatives like it that way.

Then again, some of the members of this board still think that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11. So I guess we'll always have a group that thinks FDR prolonged the Great Depression.

 

[Steeplerot]

Don't forget, Biff from back to the future says FDR was "one evil son of a bitch" on foxnews. So it must be true!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yeah, let hope we don't repeat the failures of the past by doing what FDR did with the "new deal".

Sadly I think that's where it's headed. Another massive move to socialism.
:brokenheart:

Your Republican way sure didn't work.

The good news is if you don't what the Dems do you can leave

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Your Republican way sure didn't work.

The good news is if you don't what the Dems do you can leave

Not really. It's really not that easy to just leave the country these days. There may be a few countries that openly take Americans but it cant be that many.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY


It's a shame that kids these days aren't taught real history. They just seem to get the sugar coated BS...

Because no credible historian buys into that rewrite of history. Only Libertarians with an agenda or desperate Right-wingers.
You a 9/11 truther too?

Credible enough?

I can find more links for you if you like but more and more historians and economists are coming to the conclusion that the New Deal prolonged the Depression, and the only reason it ended was due to WWII.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY


It's a shame that kids these days aren't taught real history. They just seem to get the sugar coated BS...

Because no credible historian buys into that rewrite of history. Only Libertarians with an agenda or desperate Right-wingers.
You a 9/11 truther too?

Credible enough?

I can find more links for you if you like but more and more historians and economists are coming to the conclusion that the New Deal prolonged the Depression, and the only reason it ended was due to WWII.

That is the UCLAs professors study in it I mentioned. And I said yes, besides these guys.
They are well known partisan hacks to shill out to anti-environmental lobbiest stuff also.
Any surprise they hate FDR?
One of them is a 9/11 truther Ron Paul guy too lol.
Edit: sp

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Yeah, let hope we don't repeat the failures of the past by doing what FDR did with the "new deal".

Sadly I think that's where it's headed. Another massive move to socialism.
:brokenheart:

Your Republican way sure didn't work.

The good news is if you don't what the Dems do you can leave

You sure sound like a sh*ty American with that attitude.