Federal Court Vacates MS Breakup?????

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UnixFreak

Platinum Member
Nov 27, 2000
2,008
0
76


<< Just keep that in mind when pondering the .net initiative and XP's &quot;activation&quot; scheme. >>




Which would completely go to hell, if we didnt buy it. The fact is, we have a choice. The Consumer has the ultimate power, the power of the dollar. Just because your company, (and mine, as a matter of fact) chooses to use the M$ platform, still does not make them a monopoly, its a love out of convienience.
 

warcleric

Banned
May 31, 2000
2,384
0
0
Stark: I would have a similiar job, using a different and most likely inferior product.

Main Entry: mo·nop·o·ly
Pronunciation: m&amp;-'n&auml;-p(&amp;-)lE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -lies
Etymology: Latin monopolium, from Greek monopOlion, from mon- + pOlein to sell
Date: 1534
1 : exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2 : exclusive possession or control
3 : a commodity controlled by one party
4 : one that has a monopoly

MS does NOT have a monopoly. They just have a commanding market share.
 

Hanpan

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2000
4,812
0
0
Anyone who has taken economics will tell you ms is a monopoly.

Firstly they price discriminate (oem vs retail vs student)
Secondly there is an index which indicates how close a company is to monopoly. I forgot the name but 10,000 is a pure monopoly, Microsoft is at about 9300. Thirdly microsft sets their own prices. The only thing that might save ms is that there is no great barrier to entry in the os market. Other than that they are a monopoly straight from the book.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<< You are not forced to use M$ products. >>

That's right, MS doesn't force its customers to use their products. Instead they smother any competition. Numerous companies have gone bankrupt due to agressive actions from MS.
MS doesn't force its customers to use their products because they make sure that there is no other choice. That's why they're getting nervous now Open Source software is becoming popular. Since OS software is made by volunteers and the source code is freely available, this is a totally new 'enemy' to MS, an enemy which they can't just cripple or squash like a bug.
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0
Witness for US
&quot;Finally, the MIT professor Franklin Fisher, a giant in the field of antitrust economics who had worked with Boies on the IBM case, argued that Microsoft had created high barriers to entry in the operating-system and browser markets, and that the company had the ability, even if it didn't use it, to raise prices almost at will - two key tests of monopoly power.&quot;

Witness for MS
&quot;The DOJ was doubly surprised that Schmalensee was the only economist in Microsoft's quiver. (The government had two.) In an antitrust trial, there are two big issues for an economist to address: Does the company in question have monopoly power? And has it abused that power? Both Boies and Rubinfeld told me that if they'd been advising Microsoft they would have counseled the company to concede the first issue, as Boies did in the IBM suit, so as to strengthen its hand on the second; both believed Microsoft hadn't done this out of fear that the concession would be used against it in future antitrust litigation. But by asking Schmalensee to advance both claims, Microsoft placed him in a vulnerable position.

Boies punched holes in Schmalensee's attempts to assert that Linux, BeOS, and the Palm OS posed a significant threat to Windows. But the coup de grace came on Day Two. In preparing for Schmalensee's cross, Rubinfeld and his team of economists were startled to discover a 1982 Harvard Law Review article in which the witness argued that &quot;persistent excess profits&quot; indicate monopoly power - an argument that contradicted his current position. The DOJ had no doubt that Schmalensee would have an explanation ready if Boies asked about this. How could he not? Yet when Boies confronted him with his own writing, Schmalensee was dumbstruck. He said, slightly slackjawed, &quot;My immediate reaction is: What could I have been thinking?&quot;

Bill Gates:
&quot;I asked Gates if he believed it was possible to have a monopoly in the software industry. &quot;In operating systems, no,&quot; he said.

Impossible?

&quot;It's not possible.&quot;

Why?

&quot;Because people's expectations of what they want out of the operating system are constantly changing. They want something better. Why have I increased our R&amp;D from a few hundred million a year to $3 billion? Because it's a very competitive business.... A monopoly is where you don't have competition. The notion that this is a market without competition is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard in my life.&quot;

I really think anyone with an opinion on MS needs to read: THIS STORY!
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0


<< Which would completely go to hell, if we didnt buy it. The fact is, we have a choice. >>


And what if MS stopped selling everything but XP and .net enabled software (just like they no longer sell Win 3.1, Win 95, Office 95/97 and many other products).

Today, you can only buy most dell computers with Windows 98, Windows ME, or Windows 2000. On some systems they offer Linux, but not all. In a year from now, you may only be able to buy one with Windows XP.
 

Dually

Golden Member
Dec 20, 2000
1,628
0
0
There is a 60% chance the supremes won't hear it cause they will refuse to. I can't think of once reason why it deserves their merit or attention. Yes folks thats right they not only can do that but they refuse to ehar cases the vast vast majority of the time.
 

Recneps

Senior member
Jul 2, 2000
232
0
0
Main Entry: 1trust
Pronunciation: 'tr&amp;st
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, probably of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse traust trust; akin to Old English trEowe faithful -- more at TRUE
Date: 13th century
1 a : assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something b : one in which confidence is placed
2 a : dependence on something future or contingent : HOPE b : reliance on future payment for property (as merchandise) delivered : CREDIT
3 a : a property interest held by one person for the benefit of another b : a combination of firms or corporations formed by a legal agreement; especially : one that reduces or threatens to reduce competition
4 archaic : TRUSTWORTHINESS
5 a (1) : a charge or duty imposed in faith or confidence or as a condition of some relationship (2) : something committed or entrusted to one to be used or cared for in the interest of another b : responsible charge or office c : CARE, CUSTODY <the child committed to her trust>
- in trust : in the care or possession of a trustee

They are a trust and there for they are in violation of the anti-trust laws very simple.
 

holden j caufield

Diamond Member
Dec 30, 1999
6,324
10
81
obviously they are a monopoly but all I know is that on March 10, 2000 when the ruling came my stocks just started plummeting. Hell I blame that ruling for the markets loss of god know how many trillions.
 

Dually

Golden Member
Dec 20, 2000
1,628
0
0


<< Main Entry: 1trust
Pronunciation: 'tr&amp;st
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, probably of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse traust trust; akin to Old English trEowe faithful -- more at TRUE
Date: 13th century
1 a : assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something b : one in which confidence is placed
2 a : dependence on something future or contingent : HOPE b : reliance on future payment for property (as merchandise) delivered : CREDIT
3 a : a property interest held by one person for the benefit of another b : a combination of firms or corporations formed by a legal agreement; especially : one that reduces or threatens to reduce competition
4 archaic : TRUSTWORTHINESS
5 a (1) : a charge or duty imposed in faith or confidence or as a condition of some relationship (2) : something committed or entrusted to one to be used or cared for in the interest of another b : responsible charge or office c : CARE, CUSTODY <the child committed to her trust>
- in trust : in the care or possession of a trustee

They are a trust and there for they are in violation of the anti-trust laws very simple.
>>



Your logic is over powering.

It isn't illegal to be a trust or a monopoly. Its illegal for them to engage in certain tactics or practices if they are found to be one. DeBeers is a good example of this, they are a monopoly as well.

Also M$ isn't a trust, they are one company with many products.
 

UnixFreak

Platinum Member
Nov 27, 2000
2,008
0
76


<< Why does M$ always come out on top? >>



Because thats what many were &quot;raised&quot; on, and refuse to learn something new, also, its like moving out of your parent's house, leaving the comfort of M$'s blanket is pretty hard. Either that, or people really like buggy, bloated, and expensive software, one or the other.
 

nicowju

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2001
3,880
0
76
hehe this is funny. Big brother really doesn't have any business here. And neither does the err... rather biased Penfield Jackson
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0


<< Big brother really doesn't have any business here. >>



But what if Big brother has lots of money, wears glasses and works in Redmond?
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0


<< You are not forced to use M$ products. At work, I am (as we speak) but at home, I can do anything I want with linux. (Ok, 99.99% of what I can do with windows) So I cant say I am forced to Use M$. >>



So you are saying you don't have to use M$ products unless you want to be employed. Whew... I'm glad to know I have a choice now.
 

huanaku

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2001
1,208
0
0
I'm with Compuwiz on this one.

I appreciate Microsoft -- look at how much they have done for the industry. They are their own business and should be allowed to do business as they choose.
 

Recneps

Senior member
Jul 2, 2000
232
0
0
<<DeBeers is a good example of this, they are a monopoly as well.>>

DeBeers makes microsoft anti competions action look like a momo and pop store. DeBeers is founding wars just so that they can keep there monopoly. They would be broken up but they are not in the US and there for the US goverment can't do anything about them.



[L]http://www.antitrust.org/aei/Guidelines.htm[/L] Lets see how many MS breaks in there abuse of a monoploy because as you said they are a monopoly.

Feel free to suggest retail prices to dealers but not to coerce them to accept those prices -- Well its pretty clear that this one is broken.

Do not tie the sale of one product to another -- Can anyone say IE, WMP, ect.

Charge all customers the same price, unless the cost of serving them varies. -- There is what a 100 dollar difference between OEM which M$ defends as being purchased with HARDWARE and the retail which was not purchased with HARDWARE. How does me buying a motherboard from a company reduce the cost for M$ in sell Windose?

 

351Cleveland

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2001
1,381
6
81
Stark - You look for a problem where no problem exists. Imagine a world with 7-10 major OS's, each unique in architecture. How long would it take for a company to port a software pacakge to EACH AND EVERY ONE? It would not happen, because it would dramatically increase the cost of the product. It would essentially multiply the cost of development by 7-10 times.

Also consider that at one point there were several operating systems competing for dominance. When a popular package is developed for only ONE system, what happens? That OS is given an advantage. WHat happens next? Software companies see the advantage, and start developing more and more for that OS. Eventually that particular OS takes over.

 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,358
8,447
126
you guys aren't using good definitions. the real definition of monopoly:
&quot;An industry structure in which there is only one large firm that produces a product for which there are no close substitutes. Monopolists can set prices but are subject to market discipline. For a monopoly to continue to exist, something must prevent potential competitors from entering the industry and competing for profits.&quot; Case/Fair; Principles of Economics; Fourth Ed; Pg 55

so, microsoft is a monopoly of the OS market because there is no close substitute for windows, regardless of what the Linux holy-war guys will tell you. being a monopoly is not illegal in and of itself. restraining competition in order to be one is. and that, according to the court, is what miscrosoft did.

as for word perfect, microsoft is part owner of its developer, corel.
 

pulse8

Lifer
May 3, 2000
20,860
1
81
I think Microsoft is fine being the main OS. The last thing the computer world needs is 30 or so OSs running around with no standards. I don't think breaking them up is a good idea. They will just become two huge companies instead of just one.
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0
I don't mind using MS as an OS. I don't like the registration in xp, but there are ways around that.

Whay you guys are missing is how ms uses its dominance in desktops to sell the rest of its products. They have a nasty habit of forcing people to do what it wants to earn market share. Did anyone notice why the MS/AOL talks broke down? It was because MS wanted it's messenger service used in favor of AIM. With MS, it's take what we tell you to take, or we won't deal with you. They did the same thing with Apple: if you don't make IE the default browser for the mac, we won't make Office for the mac.

To those who argue that MS simply makes better software:
if netscape, wordperfect, realnetworks, etc. got at least $100 from every computer sold around the world today, they could probably develop some pretty good software too. They're not playing on a level field: MS has their monopoly power behind them in every area where they compete.
 

HansXP

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2001
3,093
0
0


<< Whay you guys are missing is how ms uses its dominance in desktops to sell the rest of its products. They have a nasty habit of forcing people to do what it wants to earn market share. Did anyone notice why the MS/AOL talks broke down? It was because MS wanted it's messenger service used in favor of AIM. With MS, it's take what we tell you to take, or we won't deal with you. They did the same thing with Apple: if you don't make IE the default browser for the mac, we won't make Office for the mac. >>



No, talks didn't break down because MS wanted MSN Messenger to be used instead of AIM. The argument was whether AOL could still participate in lawsuits against Microsoft. Now, if you ran a business, and were going to sign a deal with another company, would you want them to later sue your ass? I don't think so.
 

SJ

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,151
0
0
Hans is correct. AOL is likely to sue MS in a private anti-trust case.

Kinda calling the pot black though seeing as AOL is just as big of predator as MS is, even more so IMHO. AOL is a bigger monoploy and what they do has far greater effect of the consumer than what MS does. I sure as hell hope AOL has to pay all those back wages to an estimated 11,000-15,000 people a year(for several years) for &quot;work&quot; they provided in the earlier AOL days. With out those &quot;volunteers&quot; AOL would never have been so big.
 

HansXP

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2001
3,093
0
0


<< Kinda calling the pot black though seeing as AOL is just as big of predator as MS is, even more so IMHO. AOL is a bigger monoploy and what they do has far greater effect of the consumer than what MS does. I sure as hell hope AOL has to pay all those back wages to an estimated 11,000-15,000 people a year(for several years) for &quot;work&quot; they provided in the earlier AOL days. With out those &quot;volunteers&quot; AOL would never have been so big. >>



Well said. I really don't understand why the feds allowed AOL and Time Warner to merge. That just made them more powerful and more evil :|
 
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