Federal law vs City Ordiance

[yhelothar]

Why would I be mad? I'm not the stupid one to not notice that no one parks their cars on the street at night. Nor would I be stupid enough not to know that the police don't enforce all laws all the time. Nor would I put into my OKCupid Profile 'mindfuck' not once but multiple times or post emo pics.

Show me where in your source that any of the signage requirements pertains to city/town local streets/roads which more than likely receive zero federal funding but state funding instead.

People park their cars on the street at night all the time, but I'm not out in the middle of the night much to notice something like that. And it's not exactly something I pay attention to. I guess that makes me a retard.
And you got the wrong guy with the emo pics because I don't do emo... period.

Please don't attempt to derail my thread again with personal attacks.

 

[BoomerD]

Maybe you need to read your own link...

Page 2B-40

Option:
To minimize the number of parking signs, blanket regulations that apply to a given district
may, if legal, be posted at district boundary lines.

 

[yhelothar]

Maybe you need to read your own link...

Page 2B-40

Well thank you for that information. I'm not a lawyer so information like this is what I'm looking for by creating a thread like this so I don't waste my time or anyone elses time going through appeals when there are laws out there that I'm not aware of that nullifies my argument.

 

[BoomerD]

Well thank you for that information. I'm not a lawyer so information like this is what I'm looking for by creating a thread like this so I don't waste my time or anyone elses time going through appeals when there are laws out there that I'm not aware of that nullifies my argument.

OK fine...but it was in the link YOU posted...

 

[Venix]

The Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices is not a law. The federal government requires states to substantially implement its provisions as a condition of receiving federal highway funding, but generally there is no such thing as federal traffic law.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Jesus - you're wasting your time appealing a parking ticket? Get over it!

For what it's worth, the federal government only has the authority permitted by the Constitution - all other matters are reserved for the state and local authorities. The federal government has no jurisdiction over local roads, and so the Supremacy Clause is irrelevant. You could still argue that the language you cited to should apply as persuasive authority, but it's not binding on your city.

 

[CZroe]

Again, where do you live? You know that when snow melts during the day, it freezes up at night? Well, if you lived in the city, you'd realize how important it is to have cleared sidewalks. Heck, I think in every place I've lived, even the Postal workers won't deliver you the mail unless you've cleared your sidewalk/walkway.

fwiw - here's an article about it in MA, Failure to clear snow could be costly

Whatever happened to "Rain, sleet, or snow: The mail MUST go through"?

 

[sourceninja]

The road I drive to work on has no speed limit signs (at least on the 35 miles of it I drive). One time I got pulled over and the cop asked me "Sir, do you know what the speed limit is on this road?" I laughed and told her "No, there are no signs so I just drove what I felt was safe for conditions, so what is the speed limit on this road"

That was when she realized that I was right, the road had no speed limits. She went back to the car and returned to tell me that in the state of MI, any road without a posted sign is automatically 55mph. How the hell was I to know something random like that?

In any case, I got a warning.

 

[Nik]

And federal law does not supercede local laws on local roads/streets.

Haha. This freakin guy...

 

[Vette73]

Whatever happened to "Rain, sleet, or snow: The mail MUST go through"?

The PO does not have that any where in their Reg's. It is written on a building that a artist put there, but no such reg for the Postal Service.

 

[Zargon]

in the state of MI, any road without a posted sign is automatically 55mph. How the hell was I to know something random like that?

In any case, I got a warning.

IL is the same way, they tell us this 100 times in drivers ed,its in the 'rules of the road' book at the DMV.


also, my town doesnt allow cars to be parked in the same spot for 72 hours, the only signs are *gasp* at the city boundrys

 

[sourceninja]

It was never taught to me in drivers ed (actually, I never took drivers ed) and it was defiantly not on my test. However, I just looked up the state I live in and it's much more complicated. But live and learn.

On an urban interstate highway, vehicles may not exceed 55 miles per
hour or the posted speed limit.

On a non-divided state highway, vehicles may not exceed 55 miles per
hour or the posted speed limit.

On county roads, vehicles may not exceed 55 miles per hour or the
posted speed limit.

In most urban residential areas, vehicles may not exceed 30 miles per
hour or the posted speed limit.

In alleys, vehicles may not exceed 15 miles per hour or the posted speed
limit

Passenger vehicles may not exceed 70 miles per hour or the posted speed
limit. (Interstate highways)

Trucks that are 26,000 pounds and heaver may not exceed 65 miles per
hour or the posted speed limit.

On a rural state divided highway, vehicles may not exceed 60 miles per
hour or the posted speed limit.

I guess the question was "Am I on a country road or a rural state highway" part of the road is divided, but the part I got pulled over on was just after the divide. In any case, no harm done and I learned something new.

 

[MotionMan]

The road I drive to work on has no speed limit signs (at least on the 35 miles of it I drive). One time I got pulled over and the cop asked me "Sir, do you know what the speed limit is on this road?" I laughed and told her "No, there are no signs so I just drove what I felt was safe for conditions, so what is the speed limit on this road"

That was when she realized that I was right, the road had no speed limits. She went back to the car and returned to tell me that in the state of MI, any road without a posted sign is automatically 55mph. How the hell was I to know something random like that?

In any case, I got a warning.

In California, if you agree to have a license to drive, you agree that you are presumed to know all traffic laws and ignorance of any traffic law in no defense.

MotionMan

 

[sourceninja]

In California, if you agree to have a license to drive, you agree that you are presumed to know all traffic laws and ignorance of any traffic law in no defense.

MotionMan

Never said it was a defense, just wondered how the hell you are suppose to know this stuff, it actually took me 45 minutes to look that law up. Silly to think that a single sign would have soved all confusion.

 

[BoomerD]

Never said it was a defense, just wondered how the hell you are suppose to know this stuff, it actually took me 45 minutes to look that law up. Silly to think that a single sign would have soved all confusion.

45 minutes? Are you retarded?

It took me maybe 3 minutes to find this:

Question: Please provide me with the state law, act or policy that outlines the speed limits on unmarked rural roads. It is our understanding that the speed limit on an unmarked rural dirt road is 45 mph and 55 mph on an unmarked rural paved road.

Answer: MCL 257.628 of the Michigan Vehicle Code sets the statewide maximum speed limit on all unposted highways at 55 mph. Gravel roads are included in this. Gravel roads are currently excluded from the process of lowering posted speeds through a Traffic Control Order due to the changing conditions of these roads. The Basic Speed Law, MCL 257.627, adequately covers these changing conditions by requiring drivers to "drive at a careful and prudent speed not greater than nor less than is reasonable and proper, having due regard to the traffic, surface, and width of the highway and of any other condition then existing."

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1586_27094-73839--,00.html#speed

 

[SpunkyJones]

The Feds have tanks, I would follow their laws in this case.

 

[alkemyst]

Laws don't have to be posted. It's a convenience. In many areas the residents do not want ugly signs to begin with.

If there is an actual law on the books and you live there, it's your own fault. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I recently was hit with a florida law that allows any officer to give a ticket for being able to simply hear your music within 25' away. It's easy to hear a conversation in a car at 25' away.

The law is bullshit, I didn't know about it, but that doesn't change the legality of it.

I am going to contest it with the caveat that I don't agree with the spirit of the ticket nor the wording of the law.

I still expect to be hit with the $116 fine and another $30-40 in court costs.

 

[rudder]

And federal law does not supercede local laws on local roads/streets.

Maybe so, but state law supercedes city/local municipality laws. At least in Tennessee anyway, a city could but up a sign where ever they want... i.e., stops signs and speed limit signs. But there are state regulations that must be adhered to.

a recent case involved a city police chief who created a speed trap on state roads. Eventually the city had to pay back the people who were fined because of it. Although the road was in city limits they had no authority to write tickets.

So the OP needs to crack open the law books for his state. Most of the time the state laws mimic federal laws when dealing with this type of crap.

 

[sourceninja]

45 minutes? Are you retarded?

It took me maybe 3 minutes to find this:


http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1586_27094-73839--,00.html#speed

If you just go to michigan.gov and try to find it, it's a pain the ass. However, I was referring to my states laws, which was indiana. I already know MI law because of the traffic stop.

 

[lord_emperor]

Just some anecdotal support for the OP.

I live in a very small town where by right everyone should know stupid rules like this, but if you're not allowed to park somewhere it is very clearly signed and anywhere there is not a sign you can park whenever you want. We have signs somewhat like this:

| No Parking | 2hr Parking |                                   | 2hr Parking |
|            |  9AM - 5PM  |     (Some parking spaces here)    |  9AM - 5PM  |
|   <===     |     ===>    |                                   |    <===     |

This applies from the city center to the most remote country street within city limits.

The OP's city has this "law" as a pure money grab and I believe he should fight it to the supreme court if necessary, hit the city with a class action suit and force them to implement proper signage.

 

[Zenmervolt]

She went back to the car and returned to tell me that in the state of MI, any road without a posted sign is automatically 55mph. How the hell was I to know something random like that?

You're supposed to know that because it's covered in the driver's ed manual for every damn state in the Union, that's how.

Un-signed rural routes are 55 mph. Unsigned residential streets generally are 25 mph. Unsigned business district streets are generally 35 mph. Unsigned alleys are 15 mph.

ZV

 

[Jeeebus]

That was when she realized that I was right, the road had no speed limits. She went back to the car and returned to tell me that in the state of MI, any road without a posted sign is automatically 55mph. How the hell was I to know something random like that?

In any case, I got a warning.

Errr, the federal government spent millions of dollars on a public service campaign to get this knowledge out there. They even lined up Sammy Hagar to let us know that we can't drive [above]... fifty five!!!

 

[Patranus]

So you don't have a problem with cities enforcing illegal taxes?

And what part of interstate commerce relates to signage posting?

None you say?

Well then the federal law is irrelevant.

 

[ShockwaveVT]

So apparently at my city, there is an ordinance that prohibits parking on the streets from 2AM to 4AM. There is no sign whatsoever designating this ordinance, and the only place where the law is posted that I see is on the city website. However, the city website claims it's posted on all major city entrances.

However according to federal law, signs must be installed in plain view where the regulations apply.
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/millennium/06.14.01/2bndi.pdf
"Regulatory signs shall be installed at or near where the regulations apply. The signs shall clearly indicate the requirements imposed by the regulations and shall be designed and installed to provide adequate visibility and legibility in order to obtain compliance."

I contested the citation with this info and they responded "Signs are properly posted in accordance with the city ordinance."

Well it's obviously not in accordance to federal law, which according to the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution, the federal law is the supreme law of the land and triumphs any conflicting state or city laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause

So my current plan of action is to respond with a further appeal with the supremacy clause.

Any other suggestions?

This:

The Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices is not a law. The federal government requires states to substantially implement its provisions as a condition of receiving federal highway funding, but generally there is no such thing as federal traffic law.

And especially this:

Maybe you need to read your own link...

Page 2B-40
Quote:
Option:
To minimize the number of parking signs, blanket regulations that apply to a given district
may, if legal, be posted at district boundary lines.

 

[sourceninja]

You're supposed to know that because it's covered in the driver's ed manual for every damn state in the Union, that's how.

Un-signed rural routes are 55 mph. Unsigned residential streets generally are 25 mph. Unsigned business district streets are generally 35 mph. Unsigned alleys are 15 mph.

ZV

And how do you know for sure which kind of road you are on? For example, there is a road I'm thinking of that is considered in-city residential, but has nothing but farm field on it and is in the middle of freaking nowhere. If there wasn't a speed limit sign saying it was 35, how could I tell the difference between that and the road I drive in on?