Feds may define fetus as a child; prenatal-care plan stirs abortion debate

[Zwingle]

<< also agree that the issue cannot be over simplified, as the stakes are high (who knows, what if we ARE wrong in the cosmic universe and abortion IS wrong?) >>


Who is to say what id right and what is wrong? What I think is right, someone else might think is wrong. I answer to no higher power (except my wife), so religion does not blur my decision. If something impacts my life, like making abortion against the law, and it will in the form of higher taxes and more crowded world, my decision would be the one that makes my life easier.

 

[yllus]

<< Perhaps she should have thought about this before she got pregnant <hears the gasp>
I know lots of unfit mothers. Perhaps that is the fault of the woman and not the child? >>

You know as well as I do that hindsight is 20/20. We all make mistakes, this is just a colossally huge one.

Now, medical science providing any opportunity to a women to set things straight about something inside/about her own body strikes me only as a good thing. Simple fact: The fetus is inside the woman's body. Does she have the right to determine whatever goes on with it from this fact? I say yes because she is the only one of those two entities who can make any informed decision on the child's outcome. You say no for what reason - because every innocent life like this is sacred and should have rights? I agree, but say the exercising of those rights should really be decided by the two people closest to that life: the mother and father.

Allowing abortion to be a choice isn't a perfect solution, any solution deployed across a wide swath of the population is going to be abused to some extent. Doesn't mean we should outlaw the whole thing to spite those abusers. Just have faith and be comforted by the fact that the people who intelligently come to the conclusion of abortion need it enough to follow through.

Guys, girls...let's try to keep personal anecdotes and experiences out of it, seems to unnecessarily colour the fairly intelligent debate we're having. Asking what *I* would do or if I've ever been in such a position is the mark of a poor argument - be critical of the idea, not the person.

 

[Corn]

Unfortunately, this entire "abortion" debate only proves how uncivilized the human race really is.

Perhaps, someday, people will use their "brain" when making potential life altering decisions instead of their genitalia.

Sadly, such "choices" (getting pregnant by "accident" and the resulting murder of the unborn child) are evidence that society is not very enlightened or evolved. With all of our technological advances, we are still just self-centered barbarians.

 

[Zwingle]

Let us not forget that suicide is also against the law.......now that is a stupid law. Can't I decide when I want my life over?

 

[Tsaico]

Zwingle- i meant "we" as the people who are pro-choice... not we as in peopl ein general. Sorry for the lack of clarity...

 

[Corn]

<< Just have faith and be comforted by the fact that the people who intelligently come to the conclusion of abortion need it enough to follow through. >>



LOL, did you not read what you just wrote? If people were "intelligent" they would not require an abortion in the first place.

 

[gopunk]

Sadly, such "choices" (getting pregnant by "accident" and the resulting murder of the unborn child) are evidence that society is not very enlightened or evolved. With all of our technological advances, we are still just self-centered barbarians.

you're putting a nice spin on things, perhaps you need to witness poverty and how it's perpetuated by more and more children. yea... that's civilized...

 

[gopunk]

LOL, did you not read what you just wrote? If people were "intelligent" they would not require an abortion in the first place.

that's right, intelligent people never make mistakes.

 

[Corn]

<< you're putting a nice spin on things, perhaps you need to witness poverty and how it's perpetuated by more and more children. yea... that's civilized... >>



Just further evidence as to how uncivilized our society is. What, did you think I would disagree with your statement? The major contributing factor to poverty is unenlightened attitudes of people either too lazy to work, don't care about their "families", or are ruled simply by what "feels good" at any particular moment in time-consequences be damned. People escape poverty every day, it's really not that difficult. All you need is a willingness to work or learn. Civilized parents teach this simple truth to their children. Those that are too wrapped up in themselves don't.......

 

[gopunk]

<<

<< you're putting a nice spin on things, perhaps you need to witness poverty and how it's perpetuated by more and more children. yea... that's civilized... >>



Just further evidence as to how uncivilized our society is. What, did you think I would disagree with your statement? The major contributing factor to poverty is unenlightened attitudes of people either too lazy to work, don't care about their "families", or are ruled simply by what "feels good" at any particular moment in time-consequences be damned. People escape poverty every day, it's really not that difficult. All you need is a willingness to work or learn. Civilized parents teach this simple truth to their children. Those that are too wrapped up in themselves don't....... >>



i'd like to see you escape poverty with nothing more than a high school education and a few children.

 

[BDawg]

<< <<

<< Liberal jerks!

Don't know a good thing when you see it.

You are so afraid of the "slippery slope" that you would rather deny prenatal care to those in need.

Friggin' idiots. >>



Right Wing Christian Conservative Nazi >>



It's sad pro-choicers continue the fallacy that the only possible basis of the pro-life position is theology/religion. Go here to learn otherwise: Atheist and Agnostic Pro-life League >>



Earth to Mirsilis...perhaps you are lacking the same reading comprehension of JoeBaD...the "Right Wing Christian Conservative Nazi" was in direct opposition to the "Liberal Jerks." It's okay for him to generalize all Pro-Life as "Liberal Jerks," but the second someone generalizes the Pro-Life movement, it's a foul?

 

[Corn]

<< that's right, intelligent people never make mistakes. >>



Getting pregnant is not a "mistake". [sarcasm] A dick doesn't accidently penetrate someone's vagina.[/sarcasm] I would call into question anyone's intelligence when concerning a "mistake" of this magnitude.....

 

[springchikun]

I'm not saying that all fetuses that are aborted have no chance of being decent people, but what I am saying is, look at the statistics. Most women who abort are ones who already have 10 kids that they didn't want and are sitting on welfare, taking money out of my check to pay for it and essentially out of my kids mouth, to support them. I say before we consider abortion or adoption and which is better and why, how about we consider the sterilazation of people like that! Or maybe even consider making people get a lisnce to breed.

 

[BDawg]

<< LOL, did you not read what you just wrote? If people were "intelligent" they would not require an abortion in the first place. >>



Thank God we have Corn here to quantify everyone's intelligence level. I'm sure you've never made mistakes, right Corn?

So what intelligence level does it take to not make mistakes? Do you have to be a member of Mensa?

 

[gopunk]

<<

<< that's right, intelligent people never make mistakes. >>



Getting pregnant is not a "mistake". A dick didn't accidently penetrate someone's vagina. I would call into question anyone's intelligence when concerning a "mistake" of this magnitude..... >>



are you unfamiliar with the concept of making a bad decision? a mistake doesn't have to be accidental. if i had meant accident, i would have said it. however, i did not.

 

[BDawg]

<< Getting pregnant is not a "mistake". A dick didn't accidently penetrate someone's vagina. I would call into question anyone's intelligence when concerning a "mistake" of this magnitude..... >>



Yes, you are 100% right. Intelligent people never get raped. If they were that smart, they would be intelligent enough to not dress or act as if they "want it." I'm glad I can tell my wife that as long as she's intelligent, someone will not rape her and she won't have to worry about getting pregnant from them.

 

[Aelus]

30,000 REAL children starve to death daily, and here are we, nagging about a couple of feti?

geez, if you care so much about preservation of life, you'll help BY FAR more to send a letter to your local representative, and complain about the utter lack of support to third world countries by the USA.

but that would actually hit you in the wallet, and nagging about irresponsable people won't. And that is what it's all about, you people nag to ease your conscience, while you try to forget that on the other side of the world people starve to death because you're too cheap.

sincerely,

Aelus

 

[springchikun]

" Have as many kids as you want....if you can support yourself and the children you have. If you get pregnant and you cannot afford your children don't expect me and other taxpayers to pay for your mistake. I am pro-abortion and pro-death penalty. Imaagine how high our taxes would be if all the children that were aborted had been born by mothers that could not take the responsibility of raising them. I believe that women that have had abortions were taking responsibilty for their actions. If abortion was outlawed now, can you imagine the death rate of mothers that were performing their own home abortions and trying to take responsibilty? Poverty would be much higher than it is and unemployment rates would be higher had abortion not been made legal. Pro lifers should be forced to pay more taxes if they feel that strongly about a bunch of cells that has no bearing on society. If pro-lifers were forced to pay more taxes, I believe we would see more pro-abortioners. I don't want to pay for someone else's mistake.
Pro-lifers - Put your money where your mouth is and take responsibilty for those irresponsible losers who cannot.
Don't expect any help from me, I am tired of paying taxes to take care of people that cannot."

TextThis person is brilliant (must be a linux user). It IS about money these days. I agree that if all the "Pro-Lifers" want to get together and raise a little colony of unwanted kids, then by all means, please do so. Money is what pays the bills at my house, and the more women that get on welfare to support their mistakes, the less money I have to pay my bills, and the closer I am to a second job. Money feeds my child clothes him and keeps him warm. This person isn't greedy, this person is realistic.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Ok, I don't want to get too worked up over this. It is not about personalities. I understand that some of you have differing opinion and although I may strongly disagree with them, you are entitled to express them. It is difficult to discuss this dispassionately though. We have a situation where some have made a moral judgement that the woman has the right to decide the outcome of a pregnancy because, well she just does. It is an inherent right to someones thinking. For others, this right is irrevelent. You have the right to swing your arm, up to the point where you hit someones nose. For many like me, abortion is not swinging a fist, but a sword. Because you are economically deprived/uneducated/fill in the blank- still means that you are advocating cutting off someones head. Remember to us it is a SOMEONE. The Supreme Court decided that a fetus wasnt a person. I believe it was indiana or illinois that had a legislature almost approve a measure that would make pi = 3. Because a branch of government says a thing doesnt make it so. Now if you understand that the pro life people look at things apart from your perspective, you may see it is not about removing a right, but preventing a crime. Don't go with the "well would you give these women the death penalty" stuff. That is not germane to the point. Pro Choice from what I see is about rights, Pro Life about life. Life and rights have always had a tension between them. At different times either has been sacrifised in the name of the other. Gopunk- you have to understand that where one was raised does not necessarally coincide with their belief on this topic. I don't know how you grew up, but some here have been raised in abject poverty and do not hold the view you might expect. No one is going to change their mind about this by a thread, but this is how we at least in part express ourselves. It has been asked if I would support increasing educational spending. Here's my answer to all.Yes and I do. I give to many educational causes. Not a buck or two. Not so little that I dont notice it. That is not so you think good or ill of me either way, just to show I really think education needs to be a higher priority for all. If you do not, then do not contribute.

 

[gopunk]

Gopunk- you have to understand that where one was raised does not necessarally coincide with their belief on this topic. I don't know how you grew up, but some here have been raised in abject poverty and do not hold the view you might expect.

i agree, i didn't expect any such people to necessarily agree with me. i was just trying to make the point that the phrase "the rich get richer and the poor get children" is not wholly baseless.

 

[Corn]

<< i'd like to see you escape poverty with nothing more than a high school education and a few children. >>



You didn't read what I wrote evidently. It's a parents responsibility and duty to ensure their children escape poverty. The best way to accomplish this is to sacrifice "me time" and instead replace that with "family time" while your children are still school bound. All a parent needs to do to insure their children escape poverty is to make sure they have all the necessary tools to compete--an education and a good work ethic.

I was "poor", living in a sh1thole apartment in Detroit at the age of 18. My parents would only pay for me to go to a "Christian" university. Perhaps it was a foolish decision I made to strike out on my own, but 5 years later I was a college graduate--all done without financing. I worked and I paid my own way. I got a couple of grants after I was on my own for 2 years, but essentially, it was the lesson I learned in life from my parents that taught me that anyting I wanted to become/have, I was responsible for obtaining myself.

While I cursed my parents the first year I was on my own because of their "stupid" requirement for college, I now thank them for giving me the tools I needed to make it and be successful on my own.



<< I'm sure you've never made mistakes, right Corn? >>



I've made plenty of mistakes. Of course, my unprotected dick hasn't accidently fallen into any unprotected vaginas either--I must have been lucky!!!!!

Strange, I'm 36 years old and yet no children. My wife and I have been together over 8 years, have had alot of sex too, and yet no "accidents". Strange. Hopefully that'll change next month as we will be "doing it" for real--but now we're ready.

 

[Zwingle]

springchikun - No Linux here....but Thanks for the comments.
My decisions.....as I stated above are based on what makes my life and those around me, lives easier. People stay on welfare becuse they get too comfortable on it and stay there....they are happy with the status quo. Yet, the gov't continues to hand out money. I, on the otherhand strive to enjoy better things in life....and I am tired of seeing more and more money go to support the lazy and stupid that do not think twice about being a burden on society. They even convince themselves that the world owes them. Our gov't has been too easy on these people....help is fine....temporarily....but put a limit on the amount of help.........our schools systems are so messed up because of shortage of funds, and this is where the money needs to be going. Educate people properly and society on a whole will be smarter and not make poor decisions.
I grew up in a large family....dad an alcholic, spent most of his time in jail....my mom raised us all (5) and did not ever once take a gov't handout, she worked 2-3 jobs. I usually only saw her early in the morning and a couple of hours on the weekend. She busted her ass to support her family.....I ate lots of mac & cheese, pot pies and drank powdered mik (yuk) while growing up, I can't even look at m&c anymore without getting sick and can't drink milk to this day. You do what you need to do to survive, but stop looking at others to support you.

 

No one can tell a women what to do with her body, or anything contained within.

 

[Corn]

<< Yes, you are 100% right. Intelligent people never get raped. >>



Rape is not a "mistake" and for the most part cannot be prevented. You're using the argument of the straw man. Rape has nothing to do with the relative intelligence of people and "mistakes" leading up to pregnancy.

 

[Corn]

<< a mistake doesn't have to be accidental. if i had meant accident, i would have said it. however, i did not. >>



LOL, perhaps I should have used the [sarcasm] tag......I'll edit.