Feds may define fetus as a child; prenatal-care plan stirs abortion debate

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ObiDaJedi

Junior Member
Nov 16, 2001
2
0
0
If it has a beating heart, its a living thing. End of story. I believe in life at conception myself. I have a strong religious background but until recently, I had been pro-choice. Someone got me thinking to be not so worried about the womans right as the baby's. It has just as much right to live as the mother in my opinion. And as far as being able to take care of a baby and give it a good home, its not as hard as everyone makes it out to be. I have a child and although it does put a crimp in your social schedule, its just not that bad. If you're so concerned with that, then there's always adoption. There are waiting lists a mile long for adoptions. Many wonderful, loving people out there would love to take care of a child when you can't handle the burden.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Bush is still a hypocrite. Fortunately, UT-Austin School of Law has standards and refused him admission. Maybe if Bush had a law degree he could devise another ruse to achieve his goal. But it is clear his goal is not improved prenatal care b/c the flash of his pen could bring executive orders that would increase access and/or using 80% approval ratings to fashion legislation to deliver to Congress that had just one limited concept . . . all women who make less than 200% of the federal poverty level will receive subsidized prenatal care at any facility that already receives federal funding.


Corn

I think you intentionally miss the point. The majority of people that die in highway accidents . . . did not do anything other than get in an automobile and attempt to drive to their destination under the posted speed limit while buckled in.

You appear to be arguing absolutes about responsibility. Clearly, NOT using contraception means you are either ignorant of your fertility (which most people are) or stupid (which many people are). But on an absolute level contraception failure results in hundreds of thousands of preganancies. Many of which are carried to term but many will also end in abortions. For your own reasons you choose to believe that one choice is better for EVERYONE.

I also carry insurance. Will it surprise me if a speeder, who isn't buckled up, dies in a car wreck because he lost control and crashes?

We have an expression in the ER. If you've got all of your teeth, no tattoos, and no body piercings . . . you will die from injuries in an accident. And other than single vehicle crashes (which are often either suicide or sheer idiocy) accidents happen due to differences in speed not absolute rate. It's great that you have insurance, never speed, and wear seatbelts. But if you take public transportation and/or carpool you will expose yourself to much less risk. So are you being irresponsible by continuing to drive when you don't have to?


< ....and strict adherence to state edicts that "were in the peoples best interest". >>

The addition of that single comment does not dilute the truth that personal responsibility and common sense are reasonable expectations with regard to
the public's behavior. Common sense is not a concept exclusive to totalitarianism, yet that was your implication. It's dishonest, and quite frankly, makes it
difficult to keep my attention focused on any reasonable argument you might have. I realize that it can be an irresistible tactic in debate, but if you wish to
have your position thoughtfully considered, perhaps you should refrain from debasing your own reasonable arguments with such sophomoric rhetoric.


Hmm quite a reaction. I don't know how much you know about totalitarian states particularly communist China and USSR but the hold on the people comes in part from appealing to their compassion and belief in the common good. Even today China and Cuba quell dissent with the lash (or bullet) but temper it by appeals that acts of state benefit all and brow beat the people about doing for the common man instead of self. Your assumption is well . . . your assumption which often happens when you spend too much time thinking about what you are going to say instead of reading what's in front of you.

The very notion that common sense is exclusive to totalitarian regimes is utterly ridiculous. I am not surprised you would attach such a "sophmoric rhetorical" strategy as strawman to an argument you can't refute with intellect.

My implication is that common sense, personal responsibility, and a host of other laudable traits are often misused for the sake of ideology. Abortion, capitalism, socialism, Manifest Destiny, wars of faith, property, and politics often raise the same issues and justify actions on the same basis.



 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91


<< And other than single vehicle crashes (which are often either suicide or sheer idiocy) accidents happen due to differences in speed not absolute rate. >>



I wouldn't argue that at all, just curious what's the point of it? Trying to win an argument that doesn't exist? Of course speed doesn't kill, it's the inertia that gets you in the end. The problem with speeding is that if everyone else isn't speeding, there's your "differences in speed" that leads to multi-vehicle accidents......



<< It's great that you have insurance, never speed, and wear seatbelts. But if you take public transportation and/or carpool you will expose yourself to much less risk. So are you being irresponsible by continuing to drive when you don't have to? >>



If public transporation were available to me you might have a point.....but it's not and you don't.....and to say I "never speed" is quite a stretch. I "speed", but not on the road, instead it find it more satisfying (and legal) to do my "speeding" here..



<< Your assumption is well . . . your assumption which often happens when you spend too much time thinking about what you are going to say instead of reading what's in front of you. >>



Could you do me a favor and edit that sentence.....I believe you were trying to come to some conclusion, but it didn't quite make it. Perhaps you were spending too much time thinking about what you were going to say that you forgot what it was.......



<< The very notion that common sense is exclusive to totalitarian regimes is utterly ridiculous. >>



Yes!!!! Yes it is, I agree!!!!!

....but is it any more ridiculous than labeling someone that says something along the lines of "If you don't want to get bowled over, don't lay in front of the pins...." or my earlier "playing in the street" example, as a fascist?

No, both are equally ridiculous. Yet that's exactly what you did. I fully understand your point, it just doesn't apply in this case. Using common sense != fascism any more than accusing you of being a fascist simply because totalitarian governments employ and train medical personnel.
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
1
0
>>>The very notion that common sense is exclusive to totalitarian regimes is utterly ridiculous. I am not surprised you would attach such a "sophmoric rhetorical" strategy as strawman to an argument you can't refute with intellect.<<<

Classic. Too bad it probably went right over his head.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91


<< Classic. Too bad it probably went right over his head. >>



Evidently, the last paragraph in my last post sailed right over your's......
 

AaronP

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
4,359
0
0
if an unborn child isn't a life form, what is it? A pile of clay? The whole arguement that it's a woman's body, and right to choose and all that crap, in like 100 years, we will be looked on as savages for allowing doctors to stick a spoon up the woman's twat and stirring the baby into a milkshake.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
They are taking more action to save the lives of fetuses and zygotes than they are for those who area already born.
It isn't even technically called a fetus until the 11th week. It doesn't even have a fully functioning brain until then. And even then, that brain really has no intelligent function yet; just basic programming like instinct, etc.

Another issue often brought up is that, why bring an unwanted child into the world? If the zygote/fetus is aborted, it won't ever be aware of anything. "just put it up for adoption." So just sort of have it and put it somewhere in the hopes that someone else will want it. Maybe look first for anyone willing to adopt, then choose against abortion. Being stuck into an orphanage from birth just isn't healthy for the infant.


<< good, i hope they pass this and it leads to the eventual outlawing of fetus murder. >>



And I hope their next step is to impose criminal penalties on wasting sperm and mentruation


Yeah, every time you consider having sex and then don't, you are preventing another CHILD from coming into the world based on your own CHOICE.


A couple other thoughts: a miscarriage is a natural abortion. Bringing God into this then; that means that God allows abortions.
Other thought: aborting a fetus would technically send it to God right? Everyone calls it an "innocent baby" - innocents go to Heaven right? So that is sending a baby right to Heaven without having to be on Earth at all then.


masturbation is murder


Abortion is going to happen if it's legal or illegal. Keeping it legal will ensure that those people who truly want/need abortions will be able to get them performed in a sanitary facility by trained people, rather than in an alley, or in their homes by someone who doesn't have any clue what they're doing.


It's not our "decision" to take someone's life.
It's your decision to make a life though. Deciding against pregnancy is preventing a life. A fetus isn't sentient at all; if it was removed from the womb, it would die. It doesn't seem to have all the required aspects to qualify as "life."

(is not meaning to be a bitch but loves children and hates the thought of them being murdered. yes, murdered)
A fertilized egg/fetus is not a child. It isn't technically a baby yet either. And see above about it really being alive.


if every "pro-life" would agree to pay for the expenses and adopt one of the children they are "saving" the world would be a better place. of course that will never happen b/c that would mean they would actually have to show through actions and sacrifice they are pro-life, not through just talk. pro-choice people are selfish and honest about it IMO.
Agreed.

if youve already had sex, then you need to take responisiblity for your fsuckup, and not take the easy way out...
Hi kid. You were the result of a fsuckup. Cool, huh?:frown:

A sperm will never grow into a human being. A fetus will. This argument is just silly.
How much assistance are we talking here? Give the sperm an egg and it COULD develop. Give the fetus enough care and it COULD develop.


OK, so what you're saying is that anyone who is pro-life and/or likes Bush is an ultra-conservative? hoooboy. I'm not thinking you're an "ultra-liberal" for being pro-choice!
Too many pro-lifers seem to think that pro-choice people love doing abortions and love seeing them done. And that we just go out murdering people and burning stuff. WTH is with that?!?

Ok, enough for now.
 
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