Feds may define fetus as a child; prenatal-care plan stirs abortion debate

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BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
2
0


<< But for you fvckheads to label pro-lifers as religi-nazis just shows how shallow you are >>



STFU. You're the "fvckhead" who started the labeling when you mentioned "Liberal Jerks."

Bober, I wouldn't bring up rape except that the right to have an abortion after being raped is also under attack by some.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91


<< i haven't seen any newborns that show they can think either, so i'm pretty certain unborn kids can't think. >>



...and with that one comment, I'm pretty certain you can't think either...

Not that this will do anything other than muck up this topic further, but I would be curious to know how many vegetarians use "sentience", or the lack of, to support the morality of their position on abortion......
 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
0
0


<<

<< i haven't seen any newborns that show they can think either, so i'm pretty certain unborn kids can't think. >>



...and with that one comment, I'm pretty certain you can't think either...

Not that this will do anything other than muck up this topic further, but I would be curious to know how many vegetarians use "sentience", or the lack of, to support the morality of their position on abortion......
>>



actually, that was a extra, optional, and unimportant comment, which is basically irrelevant in my general view of the situation, and i'll repeat that again, because you probably missed me repeating it over and over again.

Don't complain about people who chose to kill off their unborn children, if you don't give a flying about people who want to keep their kids alive, who ARE 100% certainly thinking, and have to see their kids starve to death because they can't spare the food.

what kind of human are you, when you afford yourself the time to rant about people killing their unborn which they don't want, when you don't want to spend the money to keep kids alive, born by women who WANT children, but can't afford food.

THINK about it.

Aelus
 

Polgara

Banned
Feb 1, 2002
127
0
0
HELP!

I was just PM'd and told that 3rd Trimester abortions are illegal unless the life of the mother is in jeapordy. Is this right? I had understood that abortions were legal until the time of birth.

 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91


<< what kind of human are you, when you afford yourself the time to rant about people killing their unborn which they don't want, when you don't want to spend the money to keep kids alive, born by women who WANT children, but can't afford food. >>



Not that it's any of your business, but I give a substantial amount of my time and money to charity. Answer this question Aelus, how much have you given? Forced charity in the form of taxes is not charity--and gives you no moral superiority in this argument--assuming you even had a job and paid taxes. Grow up fool.
 

jbod

Senior member
Sep 20, 2001
495
0
0
I believe that is true Polgara...

Oh and gopunk, when politicians give my tax dollars to organizations such as NOW, I do have a right to say what I think about their policies...
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91


<< I was just PM'd and told that 3rd Trimester abortions are illegal unless the life of the mother is in jeapordy. Is this right? I had understood that abortions were legal until the time of birth. >>



Yes indeed, they are illegal. Fret not however, you can still fall down some stairs or something that late in your pregnancy if you have to.
 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
0
0


<< Not that it's any of your business, but I give a substantial amount of my time and money to charity. Answer this question Aelus, how much have you given? Forced charity in the form of taxes is not charity--and gives you no moral superiority in this argument--assuming you even had a job and paid taxes. Grow up fool. >>



a) i'm not complaining about people abortioning their unborns.
b) about 25 ? a month.

I'm saying you should have your priorities, if you're that concerned about keeping individuals from being killed, you can save a hell of alot more in third world countries than by keeping lousy and uncaring parents from not having children.

Aelus
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
The question is how are we going to keep people like you from having children? If I remember correctly, a couple months back you said that the lives of your children are meaningless compared to your own existence. I really feel sorry for you, because you're probably just following your parent's example.......how sad.
 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
0
0


<< The question is how are we going to keep people like you from having children? If I remember correctly, a couple months back you said that the lives of your children are meaningless compared to your own existence. I really feel sorry for you, because you're probably just following your parent's example.......how sad. >>



oh yeah, just go insult me when you can't prove your right on your point. While you're doing this, a couple hundred more children who wanted to live died, but at least they didn't cost you anything.

i'll repeat what i said a couple of months back: if there's no-one to see something happen, did that something happen?

If you expand that theory, you can derive that if you, as an individual didn't hear about that something, it never happened in your world. From then on, it's a small step to making the conclusion your world dies when you die. And what's the point of there being a world if you can't witness it?

think about it.

Aelus
 

LordMaul

Lifer
Nov 16, 2000
15,168
1
0
Thanks TheBlondeOne, you've showed your stripes and I like it. I stand right with you in your opinions, and all I got to say is....

Yew go grrrrrrl!


 

Polgara

Banned
Feb 1, 2002
127
0
0
Yes indeed, they are illegal. Fret not however, you can still fall down some stairs or something that late in your pregnancy if you have to.

I have been looking around for any information about a law banning third trimester abortions and have found nothing. The planned parenthood site says that they don't do them, but will refer you to a doctor that does. The Washington Post 8/2000 suggest that in the wake of Nebraska's partial-birth abortion ban being struck down, that maybe we should ban third trimester abortions.

Can anyone site a law that bans third-trimester abortions? I believe all the various state laws have been suspended because this would place an undue burdon on a woman to choose before the baby is viable.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Adoption is the moral choice.
Absolutely. The question is whether or not good morals. Why have a child you have no intentions of loving? B/C it's the right thing to do? Essentially, the pro-life movement believes you've satisfied your procreative responsibility by bringing every conception to term.

Bushkovites understand the majority of Americans do not want a Constitutional amendment prohibiting abortion. So he's attempting to appease the conservative flank by defining fetus=child, in the misguided hope of applying child protections/rights to the fetus. I doubt it will work b/c the gist of Roe v Wade is that we should balance maternal-fetal rights with little regulation before "viability" but exercise appropriate control afterwards to extend protections to the fetus against arbitrary/intentional assault. In the final analysis, womb from 0-23 wks is still nonviable and it's unlikely the State will compel women to proceed with 1st if not 2nd trimester pregnancies when the risk of taking the child to term exceeds the risk of termination.

But for the record, I'm just thankful for the healthcare this would provide to women who WANT to have their children. If it goes to further pro-life causes,
then fine. But I'd be happy if they were just given prenatal care and that was the end of it.


The irony is that Bush's policies in TX were geared towards limiting the number of people enrolled in Medicaid (one of the most expensive single items in state spending). TX was also one of the last states to extend healthcare to low-income families (in particular children) b/c his administration realized that many people that showed interest in CHIP (federally-funded child healthcare) were so poor they qualified for Medicaid (state-funded family healthcare).

Bush is clearly a hypocrite on this issue.

If you can't support a child dont fsucking have sex.
Who died and made you head of the Party . . . Stalin and Mao would be proud.

i totally agree, or you can use your fcking head and get some birth control for god's sake! however, if they've already had sex, it's too late for this bit of
wisdom.

Every form of conception control has failures. Even vasectomies and tying tubes fail (granted it's usually physician error).

Your aunt could have adopted nearly overnight if she had been willing to adopt outside her race.
If you are willing to take the ugly puppy with three legs.
For whatever reasons, many little colored kids are being abandoned after birth (ie placed for adoption). Unfortunately, they have a little too much color for many Americans who scour the globe looking for babies. Fortunately, we've got cultures throughout Asia (China, Korea) Europe (Balkans), and South America that value life so little (especially girls) that thousands are available for adoption. Too many people shop for a child like they're going to the pound if not the AKC breeder.


 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
2
0


<< I have been looking around for any information about a law banning third trimester abortions and have found nothing. The planned parenthood site says that they don't do them, but will refer you to a doctor that does. The Washington Post 8/2000 suggest that in the wake of Nebraska's partial-birth abortion ban being struck down, that maybe we should ban third trimester abortions. >>



Nebraska's partial birth abortion law was struck down because it placed undue restrictions on legal abortions. It did not just limit partial birth abortions. It is a common tactic for the pro-life group to masquerade a far stretching bill as something that sounds like it only restricts one bad sounding action.

Partial birth abortions are still legal in some states in that it is a technique and not necessarily a time of abortion.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91


<< i'll repeat what i said a couple of months back: if there's no-one to see something happen, did that something happen? >>



What do you mean if "no-one". Just because you're gone, don't mean the rest of the world evaporated. Is your great-great grandpa still alive? Are not people around to see something happen in his absence?



<< If you expand that theory, you can derive that if you, as an individual didn't hear about that something, it never happened in your world. From then on, it's a small step to making the conclusion your world dies when you die. And what's the point of there being a world if you can't witness it? >>



LOL. Congratulations, you've officially the posterboy for the "unenlightened society". If the world revolves around you, so much so that you don't even care about your children's future after you're gone, pardon me if I find your "children are starving right now" tongue lashing to be the height of hypocrisy. Obviously you're still just a child......
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Yes indeed, they are illegal.
No they are not illegal. The Court just says states have far more leeway in regulating abortion in the 3rd trimester. They cannot ban them out-right (ala make them illegal) but they can place significant restrictions (ala requiring the woman's life or health to be in jeopardy).

There's an infamous physician in Kansas City(?) that is renowned for 3rd trimester abortions. I would imagine he (and certainly his legal counsel) know the statutes as well as anyone.

Can anyone site a law that bans third-trimester abortions? I believe all the various state laws have been suspended because this would place an undue
burdon on a woman to choose before the baby is viable.

No such law exists b/c it would violate the fundamental right of women to protect themselves. Women with Marfan syndrome, various heart conditions, uncontrolled hypertension, uncontrolled diabetes, severe blood disorders, etc probably should not get pregnant EVER b/c risk of severe morbidity if not mortality is significant. How could the state possibly justify compelling women to face risk of death or severe injury? It is perfectly within a woman's providence to choose to accept those risks.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
Imagine, once the unborn child is recognized as a citizen, the ACLU will have to defend their rights too!

Unborn Children's Civil Rights Act
  • ...in the cases of Roe v. Wade (410 U.S. 113 (1973)) and Doe v. Bolton (410 U.S. 179 (1973)) the Supreme Court erred in not recognizing the humanity of the unborn child and the compelling interest of the States in protecting the life of each person before birth...
Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2001
  • Except as otherwise provided in this paragraph, the punishment for that separate offense is the same as the punishment provided under Federal law for that conduct had that injury or death occurred to the unborn child's mother.
It is an unborn child, simple enough. To deny them the same civil rights enjoyed by every newborn citizen seems ridiculous.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91


<< <<If you can't support a child dont fsucking have sex.>>

Who died and made you head of the Party . . . Stalin and Mao would be proud.
>>



If I were to say something like, "if you don't want to get run over by a car, don't play in the street", would you also consider me a fascist?

When did the concepts of personal responsibility and common sense become associated with totalitarianism?



<< Women with Marfan syndrome, various heart conditions, uncontrolled hypertension, uncontrolled diabetes, severe blood disorders, etc probably should not get pregnant EVER b/c risk of severe morbidity if not mortality is significant. How could the state possibly justify compelling women to face risk of death or severe injury? It is perfectly within a woman's providence to choose to accept those risks. >>



My question would be, why wait until the third trimester in these cases? Perhaps I could understand if someone didn't know they were pregnant prior to the third trimester, but even then, why not just induce labor or remove by c-section and see if the baby survives. I won't pretend to be a medical doctor, but aside from a non-functioning baby, what is the justification for partial-birth abortions?





 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
2
0


<< My question would be, why wait until the third trimester in these cases? Perhaps I could understand if someone didn't know they were pregnant prior to the third trimester, but even then, why not just induce labor or remove by c-section and see if the baby survives. I won't pretend to be a medical doctor, but aside from a non-functioning baby, what is the justification for partial-birth abortions? >>



You know, it's very rare, but there are women who never even notice they're pregnant until late. Usually, they're fat women...very, very fat women. The real question is how (who) they got pregnant in the first place.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
f I were to say something like, "if you don't want to get run over by a car, don't play in the street", would you also consider me a fascist?

Of course not, but how many people die in car accidents every year . . . 40,000. So if you don't want to die in a car accident don't ride in a car?! Sex is necessary but not sufficient for procreation. And sex certainly does not equate to procreation. For better (but likely worse) we are approaching an era where sex may even become unnecessary for procreation.

Mother Nature made sex fun (telological) so we would do a lot of it. She also made babies expensive to make (for women) but easy to love (made most of them cute). The magic of procreation belies it's dark side. In particular, many women who carry to term will die, the majority of "bad conceptions" will be spontaneously aborted, and the majority of "good conceptions" will be spontaneously aborted.

Arguments that inextricably link sex and procreation to justify pro-life positions are inconsistent with biological facts (low relative fertility and infertility) and philosophical equality (women become sperm receptacles and baby incubators).

When did the concepts of personal responsibility and common sense become associated with totalitarianism?
If anything totalitarian states often berated the populace with the notion that progress of the collective depended on personal responsibility, common sense, hard work, and strict adherence to state edicts that "were in the peoples best interest".

I respect pro-life advocates (of which I kinda count myself); that say the miracle of life deserves opportunity. I cannot support the position that women owe the world the product of every conception. Women are not means to an end although they are the only current means to an end.

Common sense would imply control of female sexuality is necessary to control procreation. Unfortunately, the natural extension is that women become ojects not people with the same inalienable rights as men.

Regardless, the pro-life call to action is for states if not the Court to make all fertile women adhere to their standard of what is right and just. IMHO it is not a decision for the states or the Court to make but women, their mates, friends, clergy, and whoever else they trust. You can argue that it is THEIR responsibility to carry and nurture children as their god-given gift of procreation. I'm not sure I disagree; since clearly women are the only ones that can do it. The flip-side is that if women have this ability is their a responsibility to exercise it. Furthermore, if you decline to procreate does that mean you can never have sex? If you give a BJ when you KNOW you're ovulating have you abdicated your responsibility to procreate to your potential?

If we are going to do it right, women should only have children between age 18-32 b/c they are the most likely to produce healthy term babies. Fertile women should be required to get appropriate PRE-conception healthcare like folate supplements, exercise, and avoiding nicotine; prenatal care such as abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, processed foods, chemical exposures, pollution, get regular check-ups. I mean I could go on for days about the RIGHT way to maximize the likelihood of producing healthy babies but how much of this would you require . . . given that most are issues of personal and interpersonal responsibility.

Perhaps I could understand if someone didn't know they were pregnant prior to
the third trimester, but even then, why not just induce labor or remove by c-section and see if the baby survives. I won't pretend to be a medical doctor, but
aside from a non-functioning baby, what is the justification for partial-birth abortions?


I don't want to dispel any sacred myths but plenty of modern medicine is straight-up voodoo . . . and arguably that's defaming voodoo. C-sections can be more dangerous than vaginal deliveries for some conditions and vice versa. In theory it's risk - benefit, in practice the science often does not back up the protocols. Regardless of what we do, the truth is that most babies come or don't come when they damn well please . . . and we really don't know why.

Some one already addressed the issue of "ignorance of pregnancy". As a sick aside . . . stop reading if you can't handle borderline sex issues . .
an overweight woman was asked what form of birth control she planned to use after her baby's birth . .
woman . . . nothing
doc . . . do you want to get pregnant again?
woman . . . no, but this one was an accident
doc . . . well, it's often an accident and accidents are more likely if you don't use something
woman . . . I'm sure it won't happen again
doc . . . how?
woman . . . well when my husband is having sex he just thinks he's inside but really he's not
doc . . . (no response)
woman . . . (realizing doc has nothing to say) so he does his thing I fake and that's it

As for partial birth abortion (intact dilatation and extraction), I am not an obstetrician or gynecologist but there exists a professional difference of opinion on this issue. Some will tell you there is NO indication for intact D&E based in part on the notion that delivery of legs and torso implies delivery of the head could be achieved. Others contend that if you want to maximally preserve a woman's health that avoiding delivery of the head is best. The incontrovertable facts:
1) that intact D&E is extremely rare, 2) regular D&E is performed by removing the fetus from the womb after dismemberment, 3) those opposed to intact D&E typically do not support regular D&E except for already terminated pregnancies, 4) coming through that canal is a violent act that permanently alters a woman's body.

 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91


<< So if you don't want to die in a car accident don't ride in a car?! >>



Actually, yes!!!.....and don't hang out where automobiles are!!! But more to the point, if I'm driving, I buckle up because I know that "accidents happen" and drive in a reasonable and responsible manner, thus lowering my overall risk (as much as I'm in control of anyway). I also carry insurance.

Will it surprise me if a speeder, who isn't buckled up, dies in a car wreck because he lost control and crashes?



<< ....and strict adherence to state edicts that "were in the peoples best interest". >>



The addition of that single comment does not dilute the truth that personal responsibility and common sense are reasonable expectations with regard to the public's behavior. Common sense is not a concept exclusive to totalitarianism, yet that was your implication. It's dishonest, and quite frankly, makes it difficult to keep my attention focused on any reasonable argument you might have. I realize that it can be an irresistible tactic in debate, but if you wish to have your position thoughtfully considered, perhaps you should refrain from debasing your own reasonable arguments with such sophomoric rhetoric.



<< Common sense would imply control of female sexuality is necessary to control procreation. Unfortunately, the natural extension is that women become ojects not people with the same inalienable rights as men. >>



Why does common sense imply that? Last time I check, procreation required more than just the female. Female sexuality does not need to be controlled, curbing irresponsible behavior on both the part of the male and female is what's necessary. The male use of a condom, coupled with the female use of the "pill", should reduce unwanted pregnancy to near immeasurable levels. I submit that a female who controls her own sexual destiny by insuring a satisfying, but "safe", encounter empowers herself, not the opposite.



<< If you give a BJ when you KNOW you're ovulating have you abdicated your responsibility to procreate to your potential? >>



Responsibility to procreate to your potential? Maybe during times of incurable plague perhaps, but not today. This argument is often used by "the church" to enslave both men and women, I prefer to ignore this argument myself.......



<< ....coming through that canal is a violent act that permanently alters a woman's body. >>



I've had 2 catheters (don?t ask??.) and passed a kidney stone. I'm pretty sure I don't want to be the wife during the, hopeful, delivery of our first child......
 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
0
0


<<

<< i'll repeat what i said a couple of months back: if there's no-one to see something happen, did that something happen? >>



What do you mean if "no-one". Just because you're gone, don't mean the rest of the world evaporated. Is your great-great grandpa still alive? Are not people around to see something happen in his absence?



<< If you expand that theory, you can derive that if you, as an individual didn't hear about that something, it never happened in your world. From then on, it's a small step to making the conclusion your world dies when you die. And what's the point of there being a world if you can't witness it? >>



LOL. Congratulations, you've officially the posterboy for the "unenlightened society". If the world revolves around you, so much so that you don't even care about your children's future after you're gone, pardon me if I find your "children are starving right now" tongue lashing to be the height of hypocrisy. Obviously you're still just a child......
>>



last i heard, this was a thread about abortion, i'd prefer to keep it that way, so, if you can please discuss with me on that topic, i'd appreciate it.

if you want to carry this further, use PM's, or make a new thread.

oh, and just for your convenience, i'll ask my question again: Why do you spend energy stopping irresponsable and stupid people from not having kids, while you could put that energy in helping people who want to have children?

Aelus
 
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