Finishing Basement - UPDATE: Need new input

[TechBoyJK]

Hi Guys,

Fiance and I bought a house.

It's in great shape and is a fresh remodel.

Full Gallery here --> http://imgur.com/a/YIm1s

We're wanting to partially finish the basement asap. Here's our plans/thoughts so far. Just looking for criticism and advice. Issues are numbered; followed by a general list of stuff I think we'll need to acquire.

1) A friend/coworker is a certified electrician that does installs in our data center. He's going to come out on a Saturday and get everything wired up for me. I just need to have as much ready to go as possible as to minimize the work he needs to do. So my dad (whom has built a few homes) and I will prep it so all my friend has to do is run wire and do electrical stuff. My dad could likely do the electrical, but he's not an electrician and he only has so much time to give.

2) Most of the outer basement wall has been framed up for drywall and has drywall up already. Home inspector said there's no insulation behind the drywall, and it's not that good of drywall. We want to tear down the drywall, seal any cracks, put in a vapor guard and insulation, run new outlets, put up new drywall, and paint.

3) We are planning to use carpet squares for carpeting in case there's water in basement. This way we can pull carpet up one square at a time if there's a problem.

4) We will frame up new bathroom, but not finish the inside of it. This will be finished later. We at least want the area closed in and to put a door to the bathroom up. That way you don't know its not finished until you open up door.

5) We really want to move the sewer stack. It's right in the middle of the big open area and is ugly. Home inspector said if we were to move it, now would be the time. Basically bend it at the ceiling and have it run along the ceiling until it can come down by the high part of the stairs/furnace. There's a sewer run it can tap into over there apparently.

6) There's only 4 20amp circuits left on the breaker box. Because of this, I'm thinking I'm going to add an 80-100A subpanel next to the main panel and do all the new runs to that. This way I leave a few open circuits on the main panel and can have room for everything on the new subpanel.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_238499-82364-BR1224L125V1___?productId=3027147



Stuff to buy

Insulation
vapor guard
Drywall
Electrical Wiring
Outlets
Outlet Boxes
Circuit Breakers
Carpet
Cat 6 cable
Ethernet outlets/boxes.
Subpanel

Section A is basement dimensions

Basement floor plan during remodel

Basement Pics

 

[Fanatical Meat]

First cute house congratulations
Second what will be the purpose of a finished basement? Business, rental, space,family space, workout space?

 

[gururu2]

We rented a house once with a very similar looking basement and it was finished with a half bath and was split to fit a washer/dryer room. Some problems we had were it was always super cold and had tons of crickets coming through. Easy things to remedy I think.

 

[NetWareHead]

I'd get all of the framing done that you want first and then get the electrical, data cableing and plumbing done after. Its a pain to have to move wires you've installed, its even worse to move plumbing. If you install pipes first, now your framer has to notch/hole each new stud etc... Its easier to drill into frame for plumbing/electrical work; a good plumber/electrician can do this without butchering the structure.


Regarding the plumbing, get a plumber that specializes in remodels and has replumbed existing structures. I had this done in my house and was surprised at how stringent the venting requirements are. I had one main sewer stack that vented all the plumbing (that was the code years ago) and after the re-plumb, I wound up with a main 3 inch stack, an auxillary 2 inch stack for the kitchens and 2 1.5 inch vent stacks. Today's plumbing code is pretty strict about how to vent lavatories, toilets, laundries etc... and something as seemingly easy as moving a stack will require you to adhere to modern plumbing code and vent/pitch it to spec. Doing all this in existing construction is what gets expensive. Plus, say you can move it. The remainder of that stack will still exist under the floor. You are going to need a way to seal it up and that may require leaving part of it above the floor depending on what kind of fitting. Bottom line, get a plumber.

 

[TechBoyJK]

We rented a house once with a very similar looking basement and it was finished with a half bath and was split to fit a washer/dryer room. Some problems we had were it was always super cold and had tons of crickets coming through. Easy things to remedy I think.

Yea being cold is why the home inspector suggested we take the drywall down and put in insulation.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I forgot to ask. Where will the Star Citizen room/cockpit room be?

 

[TechBoyJK]

I forgot to ask. Where will the Star Citizen room/cockpit room be?

It'll start out in the basement as part of my main workstation that I also do music stuff from. Same area where the sewer stack is now. That's why I want it out of there. I can't move the support beam and that's already impeding on the open space.

 

[zardthebuilder]

is your area prone to termites? if yes, i would treat all the wood with timbor. might be worthwhile to speak with a pesticide expert to see if there are any long-lasting general purpose treatments for behind the drywall. sealing cracks is good, but bugs always find a way in.

http://www.******************.com/timbor-p-144.html

ETA: ******************

ETA2: not sure why there is an issue with: do my own pest control.

 

[Carson Dyle]

I know almost nothing about plumbing, but wouldn't moving the sewer stack be a major undertaking?

It's how far from that support pole? Move the stack and you still have the pole in the middle of the room. I would think you could wall them off together and maybe create a storage closet.

The pole and stack aren't perfectly inline, but looks like not more than about two ft offset. Maybe just a short divider wall, say 8' x 2', maybe with some inset bookshelves on either side.

 

[TechBoyJK]

I know almost nothing about plumbing, but wouldn't moving the sewer stack be a major undertaking?

It's how far from that support pole? Move the stack and you still have the pole in the middle of the room. I would think you could wall them off together and maybe create a storage closet.

The pole and stack aren't perfectly inline, but looks like not more than about two ft offset. Maybe just a short divider wall, say 8' x 2', maybe with some inset bookshelves on either side.

I want to use the main space as an open area for music/jamming. I want to open it up more, not close it in.

here's a quick photoshop of what I'm thinking

 

[Carson Dyle]

Yeah, I saw the photos. Like I say, you still have the pole, so you can't really open it up completely, even by moving the stack.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Yeah, I saw the photos. Like I say, you still have the pole, so you can't really open it up completely, even by moving the stack.

Very true, but we'd like to put a couch against the wall at the stairs and we can't with the stack there. It kinda makes that entire wall area useless, and I need as much of it useful as possible.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Does that pipe come straight down from the floor above?

I wouldn't think you could put a 90 degree angle in a waste pipe (unless it was only draining water from a sink or tub, maybe). So even if you wanted to break up the concrete and move the location of where it goes under ground, you'll likely still have pipe descending into the room because it would have to be sloped from above. Unless you can somehow begin the slope from above basement and bring it through the ceiling in a different place.

 

[Humpy]

5) We really want to move the sewer stack. It's right in the middle of the big open area and is ugly. Home inspector said if we were to move it, now would be the time. Basically bend it at the ceiling and have it run along the ceiling until it can come down by the high part of the stairs/furnace. There's a sewer run it can tap into over there apparently.

The sewer relocation is step one. Make sure it's feasible. It may be necessary to cut concrete and trench and any framing or electrical could be in the way. Do you know exactly where all the sewer lines are now?

6) There's only 4 20amp circuits left on the breaker box. Because of this, I'm thinking I'm going to add an 80-100A subpanel next to the main panel and do all the new runs to that. This way I leave a few open circuits on the main panel and can have room for everything on the new subpanel.

This is probably step two. Make sure this is feasible and will support all of the current and future electrical needs.

2) Most of the outer basement wall has been framed up for drywall and has drywall up already. Home inspector said there's no insulation behind the drywall, and it's not that good of drywall. We want to tear down the drywall, seal any cracks, put in a vapor guard and insulation, run new outlets, put up new drywall, and paint.

It looks like the basement was once "finished" and has been gutted, maybe because of flooding? Why has the lower 4' of drywall been replaced in some areas? Why is there corrosion at the bottom of the ductwork and support columns? Plan your new wall framing and insulation carefully. What is your moisture mitigation strategy? What type of insulation will you use? Why and what type of vapor "guard" will you use? What will be the framing material and where will it be located in relation to the concrete?

4) We will frame up new bathroom, but not finish the inside of it. This will be finished later. We at least want the area closed in and to put a door to the bathroom up. That way you don't know its not finished until you open up door.

Not a bad idea as long as all the plumbing, electrical, and HVAC systems have been planned for. Are you going to leave the W/D hookups way over on the edge of nowhere or move them closer to the rest of the utilities?

1) A friend/coworker is a certified electrician that does installs in our data center. He's going to come out on a Saturday and get everything wired up for me. I just need to have as much ready to go as possible as to minimize the work he needs to do. So my dad (whom has built a few homes) and I will prep it so all my friend has to do is run wire and do electrical stuff. My dad could likely do the electrical, but he's not an electrician and he only has so much time to give.

How is he going to get everything wired on Saturday? The rest of the work that should occur beforehand will be complete?

3) We are planning to use carpet squares for carpeting in case there's water in basement. This way we can pull carpet up one square at a time if there's a problem.

Not a bad idea. If there is water in the basement what is the plan for the rest of the structure?

 

[TechBoyJK]

It looks like the basement was once "finished" and has been gutted, maybe because of flooding? Why has the lower 4' of drywall been replaced in some areas? Why is there corrosion at the bottom of the ductwork and support columns? Plan your new wall framing and insulation carefully. What is your moisture mitigation strategy? What type of insulation will you use? Why and what type of vapor "guard" will you use? What will be the framing material and where will it located in relation to the concrete?

We were told by the seller that the basement was gutted for the same reason he remodeled the rest of the house. It was outdated and worn out. He prioritized the first and upper floor and simply ran out of time and money when it came to the basement. He said once he paid for the basement walkout door that was the end of what he could do and just gave up. The home inspector seemed to think all of the drywall in the basement was new and thought it was hacked together with leftovers.

Most of the walls are already framed. I planned to pull all of the drywall off, clean up any of the dust, look for any cracks or anything that needs to be sealed or dealt with professionally, and assuming nothing major, I'd mount the outlets and prep them for wiring.

I'm planning to have my dad meet with a plumber at the house asap after close to talk about the possibility of moving the stack and how we can get the bathroom fitted. I got a good referral from the home inspector, whom I've known for years and is a very credible inspector. Once we've done that, we should be able to quickly frame up the basic shell of the bathroom and possibly wire it up.

If I can't get consensus on how to wire up the bathroom by time the electric is being worked on, I'm just going to skip it for now and not rush it.

So, assuming all goes well getting the electric hooked up and I have functioning outlets, we're going to put in insulation. As of now I'm thinking I don't want to put up a vapor barrier. Just seal any signs of cracks and put in the insulation. In fact, I'm reading stuff that says I don't want to put one in anyway.

http://diy.stackexchange.com/questi...xterior-basement-wall-if-i-use-purple-drywall

What do you recommend for insulation? My dad seemed to know what to get and said it was at Lowes. Hoping I can get it all for less than $500.

Trying to keep the entire initial project under $5k and that's including moving the stack. Figured electric would cost me about $900. I really want to get that stack moved if possible so other than the putting in the outlets and subpanel, I might wait on everything else if moving the stack eats the budget.

Speaking of.. Would this subpanel be alright? I'm assuming I can put it in next to the existing panel.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_238499-82364-BR1224L125V1___?productId=3027147

 

[Humpy]

What do you recommend for insulation?

Polystyrene rigid insulation is ideal (really the only effective choice other than spray foam) for sub-grade basements as it is not sensitive to moisture and is semi vapor permeable. However, it needs to be continuous and have the seams taped to act as an air barrier, preventing warm indoor air from reaching the cool concrete and condensing.

This will probably be impossible to install correctly while still keeping existing framing, plumbing, and electrical in place.

Edit: Here is the source that has for years been one of my guides for understanding basements, and is reasonably titled "Understanding Basements".

http://buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-103-understanding-basements

 

[TechBoyJK]

Polystyrene rigid insulation is ideal (really the only effective choice other than spray foam) for sub-grade basements as it is not sensitive to moisture and is semi vapor permeable. However, it needs to be continuous and have the seams taped to act as an air barrier, preventing warm indoor air from reaching the cool concrete and condensing.

This will probably be impossible to install correctly while still keeping existing framing, plumbing, and electrical in place.

That's pretty much the conclusion I've drawn based on what I've read and that spray foam is likely my best choice, even if more expensive. There's no way I'm going to have the time, money, etc. to tear down everything and redo it. Part of keeping this project feasible is utilizing part of the existing framework.

If I use spray foam, couldn't I just remove just enough of the existing drywall to get the outlets wired in and the spray foam sprayed in?

I was only going to replace the drywall IF I had to take it down. Anything I can keep and reuse will be helpful and require less labor.

 

[Humpy]

That's pretty much the conclusion I've drawn based on what I've read and that spray foam is likely my best choice, even if more expensive. There's no way I'm going to have the time, money, etc. to tear down everything and redo it. Part of keeping this project feasible is utilizing part of the existing framework.

If I use spray foam, couldn't I just remove just enough of the existing drywall to get the outlets wired in and the spray foam sprayed in?

I was only going to replace the drywall IF I had to take it down. Anything I can keep and reuse will be helpful and require less labor.

I can't answer that question but I do understand the urge/necessity to find ways to save time and money.

In my experience, and the experience of those who taught me, the only thing that works for certain is to do it right the first time. That usually means tearing it all out and starting over.

 

[Aikouka]

Edit: Here is the source that has for years been one of my guides for understanding basements, and is reasonably titled "Understanding Basements".

http://buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-103-understanding-basements

It seems like they have the same solution as another site that I stumbled upon. I think the only difference is that the other site, which I cannot recall the URL, mentioned to use a waterproof primer on the wall prior to gluing the foamboard insulation. Maybe that's just excessive?

 

[TechBoyJK]

So, we're on a tight budget, and removing all of the drywall and framing and redoing it all just to add insulation might be a deal breaker on both the time AND money front. I can likely get everything done in 3 weeks if I skip the insulation entirely. 3 of 4 sides are already framed up with drywall, and I'd like to take advantage of it to save money.

The dilemma has made me think about what matters the most. Right now I just want a clean livable space. If I don't do anything.. it's going to be uninsulated anyway. If I had to choose, I'd rather put the outlets in so I could use the space regardless if the walls are finished, if there's carpet, etc.

I'm leaning towards just putting in the outlets and skipping the insulation for now.

1) It's going to be my computer room where my pc runs like a heater anyway. The fiance likes it warm, but I like it cool, and since the basement will be my cave, I almost want it to be cooler....

2) Even if it costs us $150 more per year in utility costs, that's 10 years just to recoup $1500. By that time, I'll likely want to remodel the basement anyway.

3) The house we're in now has an uninsulated basement. Half of it is 'finished'. It has framed walls instead of bare concrete walls and also has a drop ceiling. The other half is a laundry area. I tried several times last night and I couldn't get more than a 3 degree difference from the unfinished area to our bedroom upstairs.

4) I could always put in spray foam insulation down the road as a compromise even if it means I have to tear into the drywall and replace some. If down the road that's all I have to do, then it's more manageable and we'll be in a better financial situation to deal with it.

5) The few times I've been in the new basement I never noticed a massive temperature difference.

6) My parent's house has an unfinished, uninsulated basement that I crashed in for a year in my early 20's, and I never complained about it being cold or w/e.

7) I know that the proper thing to do, if I wanted to know it's done right and insulated perfectly, would be to tear everything out, put up sealed foam insulation around the perimeter, then frame up everything, etc. But that's not realistic for this situation because of budget and time constraints so I NEED to make a compromise. Right now I'd rather just do a half ass job finishing the existing drywall and slapping 2 coats of paint on it and calling it a day. If down the road we want to 'truly' finish the basement, hang a ceiling, etc. I'll be more willing to to tear everything out after we're certain we want to make that investment.



Thoughts? Right now the most important thing for me is getting the electrical done so I can use the space even if it's unfinished and looks like shit. My dad already has the stuff to finish the existing drywall so all I'd need to do is buy paint. That's a far cry from tearing everything out, sourcing all new drywall and insulation, etc.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Why do you have time constraints? And if you do the framing work yourself, it's mostly just labor, isn't it?

 

[Humpy]

I think, like you suggest, it's a good idea to do the absolute minimum needed to use the space. Then live there for a while to get a better sense of the big picture before doing anything major.

It's too bad someone in the past splooged construction adhesive(?) all over the masonry walls. Maybe it can be scraped off? Otherwise I would suggest simply removing all of the existing sheetrock and framing rather than spending any effort on it, there is just no value in keeping it. Then paint the masonry walls, which can look fine in a basement setting, surface mount some electrical outlets, add some lighting, and throw down some inexpensive low pile carpet to cover the floor. Perfect low cost beginning to a man cave while leaving nearly limitless options for the future.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Why do you have time constraints? And if you do the framing work yourself, it's mostly just labor, isn't it?

I probably should have pointed out that I have serious shoulder surgery only 21 days after we close. Before then, my dad and I can do most of the work. After then, I'm going to be in a sling for 2 months and it's my dominant arm.

So I have 21 days to fix the basement up. After that it will be months before I can help, and we're getting married in June, and will have a baby by November.

I kinda want to hack whatever I can together in 3 weeks and close the case for a year or at least until we're settled in with the kid and have built our nest egg back up.

I have a friend whom owes me some time and used to install carpet, so thats one thing that can wait until after my surgery. But everything else I need to have a hand in helping otherwise it kills the budget and complicates the work. We were going to use carpet squares so that it's not a big hassle to put it down (or pull up if we decide we want to fix/work on something).

 

[TechBoyJK]

I think, like you suggest, it's a good idea to do the absolute minimum needed to use the space. Then live there for a while to get a better sense of the big picture before doing anything major.

It's too bad someone in the past splooged construction adhesive(?) all over the masonry walls. Maybe it can be scraped off? Otherwise I would suggest simply removing all of the existing sheetrock and framing rather than spending any effort on it, there is just no value in keeping it. Then paint the masonry walls, which can look fine in a basement setting, surface mount some electrical outlets, add some lighting, and throw down some inexpensive low pile carpet to cover the floor. Perfect low cost beginning to a man cave while leaving nearly limitless options for the future.

Aesthetically, unless I know I could make the concrete look nice (which is questionable), I'd prefer the walls to be sheetrock with traditional flush outlets, even if the wall serves no purpose other than to keep the outlets flush and look like a normal wall. I kinda like the idea of it being done on the cheap because if there's a problem, I won't really 2nd guess just tearing into the wall to inspect stuff.

 

[Carson Dyle]

I probably should have pointed out that I have serious shoulder surgery only 21 days after we close. Before then, my dad and I can do most of the work. After then, I'm going to be in a sling for 2 months and it's my dominant arm.

So I have 21 days to fix the basement up. After that it will be months before I can help, and we're getting married in June, and will have a baby by November.

I kinda want to hack whatever I can together in 3 weeks and close the case for a year or at least until we're settled in with the kid and have built our nest egg back up.

I have a friend whom owes me some time and used to install carpet, so thats one thing that can wait until after my surgery. But everything else I need to have a hand in helping otherwise it kills the budget and complicates the work. We were going to use carpet squares so that it's not a big hassle to put it down (or pull up if we decide we want to fix/work on something).

August, September, October?

This is secondary space, isn't it? It's not like you have to get a kitchen remodel done to be able to cook, or finish the only bathroom before the home is inhabitable.

I'm a believer in doing things right, or not doing them at all. I've had to undo and redo too many amateur home kludges to do that to myself or anyone else. But, only you know what you're capable of and what your schedule and budget look like.