Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: event8horizon
The thinning of the steel occurred by a high-temperture corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation.
I think there has been corrosive oxidation and sulfidation of your brain.
How do you survive life on a day to day basis?
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?
NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)?who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards?found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.
NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.
Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.
After discussions among the Moderators, it has been decided that this will be allowed to see if maturity exists within the P&N crowd.
If it turns into a tin foil thread it will be re-locked
Senior Anandtech Moderator
Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: event8horizon
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: event8horizon
The thinning of the steel occurred by a high-temperture corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation.
I think there has been corrosive oxidation and sulfidation of your brain.
How do you survive life on a day to day basis?
think "liquified steel"........and what that implies...
Originally posted by: yllus
You're essentially dismissing pages upon pages of testimony from people who are the best at what they do in favour of two words - "liquified steel" - you read in an early report by people who've generally proven themselves to have no clue whatsoever. You are very clearly letting your emotions lead you to an illogical conclusion.
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: yllus
You're essentially dismissing pages upon pages of testimony from people who are the best at what they do in favour of two words - "liquified steel" - you read in an early report by people who've generally proven themselves to have no clue whatsoever. You are very clearly letting your emotions lead you to an illogical conclusion.
Yeah but that would disprove his argument and he would have to find another conspiracy to waste his life on.
Originally posted by: event8horizon
someone asked about testing for explosives:
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."
NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.
NIST?s findings also do not support the ?controlled demolition? theory since there is conclusive evidence that:
*
the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;
*
the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.
Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.
In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.
The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.
Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?
NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)?who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards?found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.
NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.
Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.
They didn't ignore the evidence, they STATE that it isn't evidence because the "condition of the steel in the wreckage ... was irrelevant to the investigation..."
Originally posted by: event8horizon
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?
NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)?who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards?found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.
NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.
Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.
They didn't ignore the evidence, they STATE that it isn't evidence because the "condition of the steel in the wreckage ... was irrelevant to the investigation..."
i believe they are talking about wtc 1 and 2 because they talk about planes. also
the fire was oxygen starved but from nasa images it did show very high temps in all wtc piles. lets focus on wtc 7 since a plane did not hit it.
13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?
While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.
Originally posted by: event8horizon
small list of people that state they say molten steel:
http://wtcinvestigation.com/#%...er%20Hot%20Spots%5D%5D
Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of ?literally molten steel? at the World Trade Center. (source)
Source publication date: American Free Press 09/03/2002
Interviewer: Christopher Bollyn
Witness: Peter Tully
Date molten metal was observed: "more than a month after the collapse" up to 10/11/01
Joe Allbaugh, the Director of FEMA, was interviewed by Bryant Gumbel of CBS news on October 10 2001:
GUMBEL: We?re seeing a lot of video of smoke pouring up from the debris.
ALLBAUGH: Correct.
GUMBEL: And we?re hearing there are places where temperatures are still approaching and sometimes exceeding a thousand degrees.
ALLBAUGH: That?s right.
GUMBEL: Why? Why do we have these hot spots? What?s going on?
ALLBAUGH: Well, you have normal debris, you know, computers, paper, you have some areas that are hot pockets because of fuel. It?s just too hot for rescuers to get into those areas. So we do not know yet what?s in those areas, other than very hot, molten material. (source_FEMA.gov)
Source publication date: CBS Early Show 10/04/01
Interviewer: Bryant Gumbel
Witness: Joe Allbaugh
Date molten metal was observed: up to 10/04/01
Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for World Trade Centers 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and all subgrade levels, stated "As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running." (source_SEAU.org)
Source publication date: SEAU News Volume VI Issue II 10/2001
Interviewer: James M.Williams October 5, 2001 National Council of Structural Engineers Associations 9th Annual Conference.
Witness: Leslie Robertson
Date molten metal was observed: up to 10/02/01
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center." said the first structural engineer given access to the WTC steel. (source) (audio)
"I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw molten metal trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat." said Chaplain Herb Trimpe (source) (audio)
A NY firefighter described steel flowing at ground zero. "You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel ? molten steel! ? running down the channel rails. Like you're in a foundry... like lava... from a volcano. (source) (source) (hi-res_source)
A reporter with rare access to the debris at ground zero "descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams." (source) (cached_copy)
Source publication date: July/August 2002 Atlantic Monthly
The owner of Controlled Demolition Inc., Mark Loizeaux stated the molten steel was found ?three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed,?. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon. (source)
Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet. -Sarah Atlas of New Jersey?s Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue (source_upenn.edu)
"Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel." (source_jhsph.edu)
A veteran of disasters from the Mississippi floods Mt. St. Helens, Burger said it reminded him most of the volcano, if he forgot he was in downtown Manhattan. ?Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helen?s and the thousands who fled that disaster,? he said. Additionally he stated "Shards of steel lay upon shards of steel, shifting and unstable, uncovering red hot metal beams excavated from deep beneath layers of sub-floors, exposing further dark crevasses." (source_neha.org)
"They showed us many fascinating slides" he continued, "ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster." -Dr Keith Eaton (source_istructe.org.uk)
"Smoke constantly poured from the peaks. One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots." -Guy Lounsbury of New York Air National Guard's 109th Air Wing (source)
A NY Department of Sanitation spokeswoman said "for about two and a half months after the attacks, in addition to its regular duties, NYDS played a major role in debris removal - everything from molten steel beams to human remains...." (source)
"the ominous groaning of weakened structures overhead, or, in the early days, the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole." -William Langewiesche (source_p32) (cached_copy)
Here is what he wrote to me today at 10:38 PST:
Mr. Bryan:
I didn't personally see molten steel at the World Trade Center site. It was reported to me by contractors we had been working with. Molten steel was encountered primarily during excavation of debris around the South Tower when large hydraulic excavators were digging trenches 2 to 4 meters deep into the compacted/burning debris pile. There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators. I'm not sure where you can get a copy.
Sorry I cannot provide personal confirmation.
Regards,
==========================
Mark Loizeaux, President
CONTROLLED DEMOLITION, INC.
2737 Merryman's Mill Road
Phoenix, Maryland USA 21131
Tel: 1-410-667-6610
Fax: 1-410-667-6624
www.controlled-demolition.com
The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.
Originally posted by: event8horizon
the nist focused on a single hypothetical blast scenario. involving column 79 on floor 12 with 9 lbs RDX. they didnt test anything else it looks like b/c "other scenarios would have required more explosives. or were considered infeasible to carry out without detecdtion."
i guess they didnt test the thermite/thermate scenario.
Originally posted by: nick1985
you and your family die, sorry
Originally posted by: nick1985
event8horizon here is a hypothetical situation for you, please answer.
An all knowing being appears before you and asks, "Do you think WT7 was an inside job by the US government?". You can only answer with a "yes" or a "no", and if you are wrong he murders you and your family. Also, if you say anything other than "yes" or "no", he murders you and your family.
What would your answer be?
Originally posted by: event8horizon
Originally posted by: nick1985
event8horizon here is a hypothetical situation for you, please answer.
An all knowing being appears before you and asks, "Do you think WT7 was an inside job by the US government?". You can only answer with a "yes" or a "no", and if you are wrong he murders you and your family. Also, if you say anything other than "yes" or "no", he murders you and your family.
What would your answer be?
all knowing istead of all powerfull.......answer nothing...try to escape and if counter, attack. thats easy nick.
Originally posted by: event8horizon
Originally posted by: nick1985
event8horizon here is a hypothetical situation for you, please answer.
An all knowing being appears before you and asks, "Do you think WT7 was an inside job by the US government?". You can only answer with a "yes" or a "no", and if you are wrong he murders you and your family. Also, if you say anything other than "yes" or "no", he murders you and your family.
What would your answer be?
all knowing istead of all powerfull.......answer nothing...try to escape and if counter, attack. thats easy nick.