Firingsquad's NV40 vs R420 final evaluation

[LeChuck59]

From Jakub's wrap up...

"Anyway, we all know where this war will be won. As long as NVIDIA stays even moderately close to ATI up top, the 6800 GT will kill the X800 Pro. Nobody would take a three-legged dog against one with four, no matter how fast those three legs move. The only danger NVIDIA faces in the midrange is that the 6800 GT is good enough to cannibalize Ultra sales, almost as bad as it will eat up ATI's offerings."

After looking at all the benches I had concluded, and it seems many others on the board agree, that the 6800GT is the best value to be had in this next gen. Still, it's always nice have my opinion validated by someone else.

Also, so many people seem to be unaware of the GT, that unlike the Ultra it's a single slot, single molex solution, and that in most situations it performs better than the X800 Pro, that I felt obligated to point this article out.

Here's the link to the full article...
http://firingsquad.com/features/nv40-r420faceoff/

 

[JBT]

I have to agree the GT looks great and should cost between 350-450 bucks probably closer to 400 though. Which is cheaper than the X800Pro I belive? and should have better performance to boot. It shoulds lik a good deal to me.

I plan on getting one of these if they come out with a PCI-Express version.

 

[LTC8K6]

Isn't there going to be a plain X800XT in between the pro and the platinum edition?

 

[otispunkmeyer]

ah think the x800 pro price is round the 400 mark

 

[Acanthus]

X800SE $300
X800P $400
X800XT $500
X800XT PE Unannounced

 

[LTC8K6]

Yeah, but somebody already has the pro listed at $340, so who knows?

 

[Acanthus]

Online with the heavy competition most PC parts sell below the MSRP, the real question is whats the actual cost of the finished cards, because the volume buyers like newegg can get the prices within dollars of cost and still make a decent buck.

I predict all of these cards will be driven down below their MSRPs within weeks of release, except for the very extreme cards like the Gainward with the waterblock.

 

[Lonyo]

X800Pro = $400
X800Pro in 1~2 months = ~$325~$350 (I saw $340 somewhere already IIRC, but not totally sure)

6800GT = N/A now
6800GT in 1~2 months = $400

Probably future outcomes: X800Pro drops in price quicker due to probably cheaper costs (smaller, less complex die means probably higher yields - ATi also said, as a joke "wafers per die, not dies per wafer" in reference to the new nVidia cards and their yields - a joke, but interesting none-the-less)
If it underperforms, it'll probably also drop in price because of that.
But we'll have to see, since the GT isn't out yet. The X800Pro pretty much is.

 

[Genx87]

I am willing to bet the PCB layour costs more than the extra size of the die.

BTW I find the article so far pretty amusing

 

[ChkSix]

Yeah it is entertaining.

 

[Regs]

If the GT ships as 400 dollars, ATi would most likely have to drop the X800pro to 300-350 dollars if they expect to sell it.

 

[Genx87]

Well I hope the damn thing drops to 250 bucks by the Fall hehe

 

[LTC8K6]

It looks like BB is shipping X800 pros to customers already.

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: JBT
I have to agree the GT looks great and should cost between 350-450 bucks probably closer to 400 though. Which is cheaper than the X800Pro I belive? and should have better performance to boot. It shoulds lik a good deal to me.

I plan on getting one of these if they come out with a PCI-Express version.

When the Gt comes out it wil cost as much as the X800Pro. Soon the prices on the Pro will fall as right now they are still above MSRP so they cant stay on above $400 for much longer. GT seems like a great card to say the least. But in all newer games x800Pro gives a run for the money even in comparison to 6800Ultra (see Digit-Life review). I would probably take GT since Nvidia will definately improve their drivers. But if X800Pro remains at $400 I see a lot of ppl just going for the X800xt. If you are going to spend that much money, might as well get the best card out there.

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
X800SE $300
X800P $400
X800XT $500
X800XT PE Unannounced

the current X800xt = x800xt PE

the X800xt that positions itself between the Pro and the XT PE is actually unannounced and is rumoured.

You are probably thinking of the follow up towards x800xt PE which is also unannounced as well. IT will be interesting to see how ATI will improve the performance of the card though. I see them bumping the memory speed once GDDR3 gets to 1.6ghz and so on because their GPU is currently pretty close to maxing out.

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Online with the heavy competition most PC parts sell below the MSRP, the real question is whats the actual cost of the finished cards, because the volume buyers like newegg can get the prices within dollars of cost and still make a decent buck.

I predict all of these cards will be driven down below their MSRPs within weeks of release, except for the very extreme cards like the Gainward with the waterblock.

Well it is very hard to determine the actual cost of the finished product unless you are the company that "made the product". Consider that the manufacturers who make the cards pay taxes on the intermediate products which are needed to make the card. So they have to make profit making the cards. Then there are wholesalers which store the cards and/or retailers which sell teh cards to final consumers that usually require a 5-7% markup on top of the "below the line price". Then mass merchandisers can ask for an extra discount from ATI if they are going to sell at extra volume (like best buy) and they can get "below the line" price on top of the 5-7% markup already mentioned. Of course you have to consider the cost of R&D and design and salary costs to make the card internally at ATI so they have to make a profit. Well considering that ATIs employee discount is 50%, lets consider X800Pro at $399 retail MSRP => $199 already. Of course no company would sell their cards to employees and lose money so you know they are making money on it and probably at least 100% markup to cover their expenses and make some net income. So you have $99 price at this point. Subtract the retailer/manufacturer markups and you are looking at 50-60 a piece. Which is what the older cards retail at on pricewatch. And believe it or not both companies still make some money on those cards. So the actual price of the product.....well it's better that you don't know or it will scare you.

Let me put it this way, the actual cost to manufacture a Large Coke at Mcdonalds is 1cent and you pay about 100x more for it. And the actual cost to manufacture a Nike shoe might be well below the count of fingers on both hands.

Of course non of this matters. Why? Because the "actual cost" of any product in the world is what the consumer is willing to pay for it.

I agree with you that the prices will fall very quickly below the MSRP prices, as competition will start to heat up once Nvidia cards hit the market and within 2-3 months you'll see lower prices.

 

[Lonyo]

The manufacturers want to make quite a lot of money to cover R&D.
Apparently over the lifetime of a card's chipset, the average cost is $17 (for manufacturing and research, I think).
So an R300 core over its life would be about $17.

 

[Ackmed]

There is no PE, its an X800XT.

The Pro is $400, and the GT looks to be $400. MSRP anyways.

 

[Killrose]

I will be really surprised if the 6800GT makes it to market. It competes too much with the 6800U, IMHO.
If it does, I think the price point will be higher than we would like.

 

[Dman877]

Originally posted by: Killrose
I will be really surprised if the 6800GT makes it to market. It competes too much with the 6800U, IMHO.
If it does, I think the price point will be higher than we would like.

I agree, it looks like another 5900XT. Of course nvidia has done this to themselves 2 or 3 times already...

 

[Corsairpro]

Originally posted by: Lonyo
X800Pro = $400
X800Pro in 1~2 months = ~$325~$350 (I saw $340 somewhere already IIRC, but not totally sure)

6800GT = N/A now
6800GT in 1~2 months = $400

Probably future outcomes: X800Pro drops in price quicker due to probably cheaper costs (smaller, less complex die means probably higher yields - ATi also said, as a joke "wafers per die, not dies per wafer" in reference to the new nVidia cards and their yields - a joke, but interesting none-the-less)
If it underperforms, it'll probably also drop in price because of that.
But we'll have to see, since the GT isn't out yet. The X800Pro pretty much is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they made ALL cores 16 pipes, those that fail get some turned off leading to X800Pro / X800SE. Your thoughts based on smaller cores therefore seem to be skewed by the fact the Pro's core is the same size as the XT

 

[Matthias99]

I think he means "smaller" and "less complex" than the NV40. It is, indeed, the same core as the X800XT, but with 4 pipes disabled.

I have to say that, right now, they'd have a hard time selling these over the 6800GT at the same price. But, then again, the 6800GT isn't out yet, and the X800Pro *probably* costs less to produce than a 6800GT (since ATI can use rejected X800XT cores for the X800Pro; The 6800GT still has to have 16 good pipes, and so the yields will be almost as bad as on the 6800U/UE). So if ATI has to play hardball with the pricing, they likely can undercut NVIDIA. If the X800Pro is a bit slower than the 6800GT in some games ($400), but faster across the board than the 6800NU ($300), it could sell well at $350.

A lot of this is going to depend on how the 6800NU and X800SE perform...

 

[ronnn]

The real profit is being able to get top dollar for the binned chips, ie the x800xt pe and the 6800 ultra. If the demand for the top performer is high, this will create more of the lower binned chips - simple percentage. So if the xt pe is popular - look for lower priced pros and when the pro becomes popular at that price, look for a nice percentage that will soft mod. Or possibly if yields on high end chips are better than expected, look for a vanilla x800 16pipe card. Anyways good profits start with good sales at the top.

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
There is no PE, its an X800XT.

The Pro is $400, and the GT looks to be $400. MSRP anyways.

Well, I dont want to argue with you but I am just going with what ATI's Official Price List shows Here

 

[Rudee]

Driving a Ford Pinto is probably good "Value" as well, but we all know nobody want's that.