Info First Build in 14+ years, wish me luck...

[Heartbreaker]

The last computer I built was a Core2Quad with 8800GT back in 2008 (and I'm still using it). I had the advantage back then of good local computer shops, so I bought all parts from the same store and I could quickly use them to sort issues.

Now I live in backwoods so I had to mail order parts, final parts to get running came in today, and I am slightly nervous about having no local shops to help sort any issues/parts if it doesn't go smoothly.

Here's what I have. I haven't opened anything yet but PSU, case which I have had for a while:


Notably no GPU yet, and gaming was the main impetus for upgrade. This enables a modern GPU which I will be on the lookout for a deal on. Leading contenders are RX 6600 or RX 6650 XT.

 

[BoomerD]

Ah, OK. It's a "non-K" cpu...

MSI PRO B660-A DDR4 Motherboard, ATX - Intel 12th Gen Processors

The PRO B660-A DDR4 ATX motherboard featuring the latest Intel B660 chipset that includes ample RAM capacity with a broad spectrum of both cutting-edge and legacy hardware.

us.msi.com

Note:
The support of XMP speed might be limited when Non-K CPU was adopted.

I can't tell from the pic what exact SKU of Corsair RAM it is, but I DID find a this that is on the supported list.

CMK16GX4M2D3600C18 2133 native speed, supported 3600.

 

[In2Photos]

Top left of screenshot it says DDR speed 2133 and under that XMP profile 1 is highlighted.

Keep in mind that when you first enable XMP the speed doesn't change until you save the settings and reboot.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Leave it on and just move the cables.

If you'd need to lookup something then move the cables back.

The goal is to use the new system and migrate things over right?

Of course, but it's going to be a while before I have it all transferred installed, and until I do the old computer remains more usable.

I flashed the latest bios with M-Flash, Applied the XMP profile and it now reports 3600 for RAM speed, and I installed Windows 10 without a key. Now the slow process of transferring data, installing software.

First priority will be some benchmarks to make sure everything is operating in the right range, and then some kind of burn in program to make sure it's stable on longer runs.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I'm old school, so I'm throwing some Prime95 (same thing I used 15+ years ago) at it right now, and watching in HWinfo.

While it's only been 40 mins, I think all is working as expected.

During the easy parts of Prime it's pegged at 3.99 GHz all core, ~62 watts, ~70C and annoying 2000+ rpm boxed cooler. AFAIK 4 GHz is the max all core, so that looks right.

When it hits the harder portions, it goes over 70 watts, then clock throttles down to about 3.4GHz to maintain 65 watts, and the cooler gets very annoying ~2500 RPM, and temps hit up 78C.

I'm pretty sure I can remove the power limits with this board, but I won't do that until I get a better cooler. Already too annoying under load.

 

[Tech Junky]

Stock anything tends to be annoying. Even at full tilt my fans stay around 1700. I have 2 of them on the CPU as mentioned before push/pull across the fins. One of the annoying things with a prior build was the fans on the 2 GPU's I had in it going full blast at some absurd RPM because of their size. I used a program to wind them down a bit to 50-60% which mitigated the excessive noise and kept the temps on them reasonable. It also helped reduce the heat sink effect they had on the CPU trying to force that much airflow through the back slots of the case usually pushed air towards the CPU as well.

Using HWINFO is a great tool to monitor things as well. I'm surprised to see it mentioned since not too many people know of it.

Laptop fans are even worse though at up to 5000 RPMs when they're full tilt. Not quite as noisy though since they're buried inside the housing but still quite obnoxious at the same time. 70W isn't too bad though, the 12700K tops out at 125W. The higher level 900 CPUs IIRC hit 250W when unleashed. Just ore heat to deal with and that's where the LC's come into play.

Overall though you'll usually know if there's going to be a problem day 1 or within the first 30 days which is why I suggested throwing it together now vs waiting on doing it. Even with a good plan and trying to group parts into a synced shipping schedule you burn at least a week of return time. Time isn't your friend as a return/reorder is a lot easier to manage than a RMA. They both work but,, waiting a couple of months on a RMA vs a few days on reordering from Amazon is a big difference.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Overall though you'll usually know if there's going to be a problem day 1 or within the first 30 days which is why I suggested throwing it together now vs waiting on doing it. Even with a good plan and trying to group parts into a synced shipping schedule you burn at least a week of return time. Time isn't your friend as a return/reorder is a lot easier to manage than a RMA. They both work but,, waiting a couple of months on a RMA vs a few days on reordering from Amazon is a big difference.

I concur, which is why I bought all the semiconductor components together, and attempted/got first boot the same day they arrived. The only worry was the PSU which I bought on sale over a year ago and then you scared me with your DOA story on the same model, and it appeared DOA on first boot which rattled me for a bit. All I did was move the AC plug to a different socket and it worked. All parts are from Amazon as well, for ease of shipping in these parts.

 

[BoomerD]

Of course, but it's going to be a while before I have it all transferred installed, and until I do the old computer remains more usable.

I flashed the latest bios with M-Flash, Applied the XMP profile and it now reports 3600 for RAM speed, and I installed Windows 10 without a key. Now the slow process of transferring data, installing software.

First priority will be some benchmarks to make sure everything is operating in the right range, and then some kind of burn in program to make sure it's stable on longer runs.

Cool...that makes more sense. I don't know if Prime 95 is still the "go-to" for testing stability, but cinebench and rapydmark are often recommended here...OCCT is still around as well. Not sure how it works with the modern processors though. I have it, haven't run it yet.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Best of luck!

But you don't need it. Everything seems to be working fine

 

[Heartbreaker]

If you want a decent GPU without the high price tag look at the Intel A770 16GB for $350. It's getting better as they keep updating the drivers often and moving forward with newer titles shouldn't be as much of an issue.

I play a lot of old games and they don't tend to be Intel GPU friendly. Here is one I tested on the IGP (same tech as the Intel dGPU).

If I touch the console for any reason, all the textures disappear among other weirdness, and don't come back. Here I just tried the command to show the current FPS.

 

[Hans Gruber]

I consider it a complete failure if the power button doesn't turn on a new PC on the first try. You have to hold high standards. If you cannot achieve that standard, get a Dell.

 

[Tech Junky]

I play a lot of old games and they don't tend to be Intel GPU friendly. Here is one I tested on the IGPU (same tech as the Intel dGPU).

If I touch the console for any reason, all the textures disappear among other weirdness, and don't come back. Here I just tried the command to show the current FPS.

Only if you're using a laptop is the tech the same and the laptop would need to be ADL/RPL to have XE graphics on the iGPU.

There's a significant difference between the XE and what you see on UHD-Desktop / pre-ADL.

With UHD I would push my old laptop to use the dGPU for most tasks as it worked better even for browsing vs UHD. With XE though it handles the basic stuff better than the dGPU.

So, with all of that in mind... I wouldn't discount Arc A770 quite so quickly w/o testing it for yourself with the titles you play. A 16GB / $350 option is hard to come by even with NV/AMD prices coming down. The performance / price / GB is still $200+ higher. It's up to you though on what to go with when it comes down to it. If I didn't have a laptop as my primary I would get the A770 because the GPU cartel doesn't get my money. Similarly back in the day when building my first PC I went AMD for the same reason. These days tough Intel gets my funds on builds because AMD is too high on price for similar performance.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I consider it a complete failure if the power button doesn't turn on a new PC on the first try. You have to hold high standards. If you cannot achieve that standard, get a Dell.

Achieved. The first start failure was before there was a power button.

Once there was a power button it worked first try.

I also figured out why it didn't start first try outside the case. It was plugged into surge protected outlets on a UPS, but it turns out the outlet I used was a switchable "smart" outlet one that defaulted to to switching off if the main battery backed outlets load dropped to a certain level. I never knew this because I normally didn't use that outlet. It caused minutes of high stress as I rechecked everything, with visions of DOA PSU crossed my mind.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Only if you're using a laptop is the tech the same and the laptop would need to be ADL/RPL to have XE graphics on the iGPU.

There's a significant difference between the XE and what you see on UHD-Desktop / pre-ADL.

With UHD I would push my old laptop to use the dGPU for most tasks as it worked better even for browsing vs UHD. With XE though it handles the basic stuff better than the dGPU.

So, with all of that in mind... I wouldn't discount Arc A770 quite so quickly w/o testing it for yourself with the titles you play. A 16GB / $350 option is hard to come by even with NV/AMD prices coming down. The performance / price / GB is still $200+ higher. It's up to you though on what to go with when it comes down to it. If I didn't have a laptop as my primary I would get the A770 because the GPU cartel doesn't get my money. Similarly back in the day when building my first PC I went AMD for the same reason. These days tough Intel gets my funds on builds because AMD is too high on price for similar performance.

I have a 12400, which is ADL and has the same Gen 12 GPU tech as laptop XE, and I presume desktop cards. While the desktop HD 730 IGP in 12400, has much fewer EUs, it's the same technology, and uses the same driver tech, so I would expect the GPU glitches like above would be the same between all 12gen parts. IIRC other old favorite games like Fallout 3, just refuse to even start if they detect Intel Graphics.

If you like old games, Intel isn't a great option.

 

[Tech Junky]

it's the same technology

It's not.

uses the same driver tech

Same package but different driver.

 

[Heartbreaker]

It's not.

Evidence?

 

[Tech Junky]

Evidence?

Which Is Better: Intel Iris Xe or Intel UHD?

The Intel Iris Xe and the Intel UHD are two families of integrated GPUs that Intel currently offers. But, which one comes out on top? Let's find out.

www.makeuseof.com

Intel Core i7 12700K vs i7 12700H: performance comparison

We compared Intel Core i7 12700K (3.6 GHz) against i7 12700H (2.3 GHz) in games and benchmarks. Find out which CPU has better performance.

nanoreview.net

Intel UHD Graphics 770 vs Intel Iris Xe Graphics G7 96EU

Compare Intel UHD Graphics 770 against Intel Iris Xe Graphics G7 96EU to quickly find out which one is better in terms of technical specs, benchmarks performance and games

askgeek.io

[Comparison] Intel Iris Xe Graphics G7 vs Intel UHD Graphics - Intel has improved so much that their new Iris Xe Graphics G7 is up to 4 times better than their older UHD Graphics | LaptopMedia.com

The new Intel Iris iGPUs have been great, in terms of providing adequate performance that can be b...

laptopmedia.com

Intel Graphics Technology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Seeing as though you can only get XE on either a laptop or through the Arc dGPU card... XE from the table above has 3X the EU/shading compared to the desktop SKU's.

Now comparing the A770 vs UHD 770.... not apples to apples because it's a dGPU but you'll see the difference.

Intel Arc A770 vs Intel UHD Graphics 770

Compare Intel Arc A770 against Intel UHD Graphics 770 to quickly find out which one is better in terms of technical specs, benchmarks performance and games

askgeek.io

 

[igor_kavinski]

Evidence?

Honestly, the names UHD 770 and Xe should be clue enough that both are different. No reason for Intel NOT to advertise the iGPU as an Xe GPU on their CPU ARK page. Remember, they developed Xe specifically to fight AMD APUs in laptops.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Seeing as though you can only get XE on either a laptop or through the Arc dGPU card... XE from the table above has 3X the EU/shading compared to the desktop SKU's.

I'm talking about technology, not EU counts which I specifically said are lower, that was in the part of the sentence you omitted:

While the desktop HD 730 IGP in 12400, has much fewer EUs, it's the same technology,

But it doesn't make sense that the GPU technology in the Laptop chips and desktop chips of the same family and generation (Alder/Rocket lake) are different.

They would just put a smaller (Lower EU count) version in the desktop CPU (to save space for more big performance CPU cores).

That lowers IGP performance. But it's likely the same types of graphical bugs and glitches will inhabit the same generation parts regardless of EU count, which is my concern, not the performance.

In fact your "evidence" actually backs my point. They are all the same technology. Your slide shows these are all using the same Xe-LP (Gen12) technology, which is what I said:

View attachment 78125

 

[Tech Junky]

In fact your "evidence" actually backs my point. They are all the same technology. Your slide shows these are all using the same Xe-LP (Gen12) technology, which is what I said:

If that's the case then why does one perform so much better than the other?

Just because the table groups them under XE doesn't mean they're the same. From personal experience of both CPU types 12700K/12700H they do behave differently.

The fact that Intel differentiates them at this point unlike in the past where both desktop/laptop models shared the same UHD GPU means there's a difference. Being able to uncloak things would mean needing to dig deeper into the die / engineering info and you can do that yourself if you want to sway one way or the other.

 

[Heartbreaker]

If that's the case then why does one perform so much better than the other?

Much lower EU count in the desktop part, as noted.

Basically the Laptop part gets 3X the EUs because it's meant to run without a discrete GPU, while the desktop is expected for run with discrete so the space is saved for more CPU cores.

 

[Tech Junky]

3X the EUs

So, one would infer that the process / design changed vs the legacy UHD. Considering the size difference in the CPU DIE the design / architecture is different. Since both CPU's were released within the same period why wouldn't Intel add the XE process / benefits to the desktop side? Condensing the production lines to use the same tech would save money and boost the share prices for investors which would be a good thing after Intel wrote down nearly a $1B loss after shutting down a line of business.

Since the XE option works well for the laptop segment that's why it was chosen to be used in the ARC dGPU series. The issue with the ARC side though for games is driver related and Intel has been pushing tons of updates to patch things up to make it more palatable to gamers.

Now, the laptops of a pedigree have a dGPU in them anyway unless you're going really compact / low power which for this discussion isn't the case. Any laptop prior to the push of ARC has/had a NV/AMD counterpart for anything beyond spreadsheets and email.

As to the whole saving space / core count / etc. Things will be changing in the next couple of years as Intel shifts to a tile design and being able to shift things around on the die space to make room for more powerful SOC setups. Being able to cram in a XE GPU onto the desktop side and create a synergy with the ARC to increase the output potential of combining intel + intel for an extra boost of performance.

Intel Xe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Heartbreaker]

So, one would infer that the process / design changed vs the legacy UHD. Considering the size difference in the CPU DIE the design / architecture is different. Since both CPU's were released within the same period why wouldn't Intel add the XE process / benefits to the desktop side?

Not sure what your point is. It is the same technology on Desktop CPUs. Just less EUs.

The reason for less is obvious. They take up space. Space that either cost more and represent more profit if left out, or Space that is better spent on more big performance CPU cores for desktop.

AMD is essentially doing the same thing now that have an IGP in the desktop Ryzen.

Desktop Ryzen gets only 2 CUs, while the laptop part gets 12 CUs, and even more drastic difference than with Intel.

Getting way off track. My point is not the performance differences. It's the driver problems they have with old games. Which is why I will stick with AMD/Intel for my next GPU.

 

[BoomerD]

Well...damn...this thread has really wandered out into left field...

 

[Tech Junky]

Desktop CPUs

Intel's Future Integrated GPUs Leak Out: Arrow Lake With Alchemist Xe, Lunar Lake With Battlemage Xe2, Panther Lake With Celestial Xe3

Intel's plans for next-generation integrated Xe GPUs integrated on their Core CPU lineup have been leaked out over at LinkedIn.

wccftech.com

 

[Heartbreaker]

Intel's Future Integrated GPUs Leak Out: Arrow Lake With Alchemist Xe, Lunar Lake With Battlemage Xe2, Panther Lake With Celestial Xe3

Intel's plans for next-generation integrated Xe GPUs integrated on their Core CPU lineup have been leaked out over at LinkedIn.

wccftech.com

Still no point...