First! Fusion Net Energy Gain

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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
24,287
13,790
136
Supposedly the perfect bomb material isn't it? And it would be simple, no fuses or anything, just, idk, drop it?

Talk about a worrying future weapons test, I hope no one ever goes there.
Unless we sort ourselves out, of course we're gonna get there... Its like the ultimate MAD insurance.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,680
14,210
146
I’m happy this is happening but is there a reason we aren’t building gen3/gen4 fission reactors all over the place? It seems like if we put our minds to it we could eliminate dependency on fossil fuel rather quickly, between that and solar/wind. Using nuclear for “base” electrical supply to at least cover load during nighttime makes too much sense. I get nobody wants them in their backyard, but aren’t the new designs much safer? Instead, the only plants left running are ancient, which is sort of setting up for a self fulfilling catastrophe

They’re expensive too, so maybe it would require government funding Free property tax rebates for 50 years if a nuclear plant is built within 1 mile? Would that be enough for the NIMBYs?

Fission plants take long enough to permit and build, that every day that goes by that we aren’t slapping them down left and right infuriates me. Starting the process now and we can have that capacity reliably in 20 years.

Or we can wait for fusion to be viable in 2050, and get capacity in 2070? That’s if we don’t shift the goal posts any more and say it’s not good enough, now we need to wait for antimatter reactors

Don’t get me started on the countries shutting down perfectly good operating nuclear plants because reasons

Humans are so terrible at judging cost/benefit analysis of any events that fall on either extreme end of the spectrum for low risk, high probability and high risk, low probability.

Everyone thinks about Chernobyl and no one considers the daily value these plants offer, the lives they support and make modern standard of living possible through the power we personally depend on and the commerce they support
It's NIMBY combined with overregulation caused by humans' terrible statistical analysis and risk assessment abilities. If we had a fukishima every year it'd probably still equate to less death than what's caused by coal plants.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,680
14,210
146
Cheap plentiful power whether from fusion or renewables is going to be one way we can pull major CO2 out of the atmosphere.
How? Tell me, hypothetically, if you had infinite power today, how would you pull 1.5T tons of co2 out of the atmosphere within say, 100 years.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
97,313
16,389
126
How? Tell me, hypothetically, if you had infinite power today, how would you pull 1.5T tons of co2 out of the atmosphere within say, 100 years.

High energy breakup up CO2 and recombine as C and O. Use C as building blocks. Or just pipe it straight into the fusion chamber.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,680
14,210
146
High energy breakup up CO2 and recombine as C and O. Use C as building blocks. Or just pipe it straight into the fusion chamber.
And do we currently have the technology, assuming 'moonshot' level funding and virtually infinite energy, of doing that on the scale of millions of tons of CO2/yr? Genuine question, because I don't know (but doubt). Convince a skeptic.

Pretty sure piping co2 into a fusion chamber will just foul the fusion reactions.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
97,313
16,389
126
And do we currently have the technology, assuming 'moonshot' level funding and virtually infinite energy, of doing that on the scale of millions of tons of CO2/yr? Genuine question, because I don't know (but doubt). Convince a skeptic.

Pretty sure piping co2 into a fusion chamber will just foul the fusion reactions.


.


Or just capture in lava rock and bury it.

This is viable as well


 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,214
14,196
136
The possibilities with desalination fusion would open up too, would pretty much save American AG in the west wouldn't it?

Next up: what do we do with all that damn salt? Ha

Yes, desalination. And also the food supply. Think vertical farms within say 10 miles of major population centers. Right now the power cost of indoor lighting is why they aren't being built except as propotypes.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,595
6,442
126
The possibilities with desalination fusion would open up too, would pretty much save American AG in the west wouldn't it?

Next up: what do we do with all that damn salt? Ha
You could pack it into the tunnels in salt mines so they won't collapse.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,595
6,442
126
Yes, desalination. And also the food supply. Think vertical farms within say 10 miles of major population centers. Right now the power cost of indoor lighting is why they aren't being built except as propotypes.
Solar and wind can do the same thing. In fact we now have transparent solar panels for greenhouses. Vertical farms can be faced with them.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,595
6,442
126
Cheap is relative, especially if we're talking economies of scale that differ.

Personally I think a warship packing cruise missiles with unlimited range, but presumably without the radiation issues, sounds pretty meaningful. I think it's a given whatever successful design happens, making it smaller and more flexible will happen the same way it did with fission reactors.

Unbelievable! What sort of fantasy world are you living in where a fusion powered warship packing cruise missiles is going to be the slightest use to you. The real threat is your kitchen table. it could suddenly come alive possessed by some demotic being, rip off a leg and beat you to death with it. Your fireplace might stick out a sticky tongue, pull you in, never to be seen again. Warships and cruise missiles, for Christ sake. A cobra could bight you on the ass while you sit on your toilet. Your biggest risk, sounds like to me, is slipping in the tub while diddling yourself making up such nonsense.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,214
14,196
136
It's NIMBY combined with overregulation caused by humans' terrible statistical analysis and risk assessment abilities. If we had a fukishima every year it'd probably still equate to less death than what's caused by coal plants.

It's what I call an irrational risk fixation. People become fixated on certain risks. For example, one person is so obsessed with bridges collapsing that he'll drive 50 extra miles to avoid crossing one, but the higher risk of merely driving in a car with the attendant MVA fatility disk doesn't cause any anxiety.

I suspect people have psychologically associated nuclear plants with nuclear weapons.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,214
14,196
136
Solar and wind can do the same thing. In fact we now have transparent solar panels for greenhouses. Vertical farms can be faced with them.

Yes they can. Any power source can be used, renewable or otherwise. It's the cost of it. A single vertical farm would have 10's of thousands of indoor lights. If it was cost-efficient with any current power sources, we'd have seen a lot them by now. The advantage of not having to use any arable land, no presticides, and being able to grow near where they are consumed are quite large.
 
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eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
9,903
5,058
136
Yes they can. Any power source can be used, renewable or otherwise. It's the cost of it. A single vertical farm would have 10's of thousands of indoor lights. If it was cost-efficient with any current power sources, we'd have seen a lot them by now. The advantage of not having to use any arable land, no presticides, and being able to grow near where they are consumed are quite large.
Plus year round
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,595
6,442
126
Yes they can. Any power source can be used, renewable or otherwise. It's the cost of it. A single vertical farm would have 10's of thousands of indoor lights. If it was cost-efficient with any current power sources, we'd have seen a lot them by now. The advantage of not having to use any arable land, no presticides, and being able to grow near where they are consumed are quite large.

At the moment, however, it is leafy greens, and a few other veges and fruits that can be grown. I don’t think it will work for grains like wheat or corn. Have you seem the city the Saudis are building in the desert?
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
29,183
41,267
136
Unbelievable! What sort of fantasy world are you living in where a fusion powered warship packing cruise missiles is going to be the slightest use to you. The real threat is your kitchen table. it could suddenly come alive possessed by some demotic being, rip off a leg and beat you to death with it. Your fireplace might stick out a sticky tongue, pull you in, never to be seen again. Warships and cruise missiles, for Christ sake. A cobra could bight you on the ass while you sit on your toilet. Your biggest risk, sounds like to me, is slipping in the tub while diddling yourself making up such nonsense.

Now moon, when the Q-tip meets resistance, that's when you stop pushing. If you're not familiar with super power interest in super cruise missiles, that's ok, I just want you to know your anguish and the butthurt it led you to are completely unnecessary. Cobras and demons, kitchens and toilets, oh my! Yes someone is diddling themselves. I'm just a big silly who needs cruise missiles, for reasons. And why oh why would anyone in their right mind ever suspect the Chinese of wanting bigger and better weapons than the US or Russia, right?

Do cobras haunt you often? What about these fireplaces with the sticky tongues? I can't offer you anything in the way of demonic dismemberment, certainly not any masturbatory bathing details, but some articles on cruise missiles or even naval tactics is certainly doable. If it helps you overcome your shock and concern for risk I'm here for you.
 
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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
29,183
41,267
136
Yes, desalination. And also the food supply. Think vertical farms within say 10 miles of major population centers. Right now the power cost of indoor lighting is why they aren't being built except as propotypes.

Hell, put them in population centers. Utilize the properties that are going unused or neglected, give city residents food security and jobs at the same time. I feel like that could mesh nicely with the effort to cool cities by turning rooftops into growing spaces.

Was just talking to someone else about desalination, and he just educated me on salt/brine not being the only issues. Apparently the cleaning chemicals used in the process are part of the disposal problem, but also by products of those chemicals actually make it into the now 'fresh' water. Makes the water acidic which screws with some pipes and people. Did not know that.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,545
21,771
136
Hell, put them in population centers. Utilize the properties that are going unused or neglected, give city residents food security and jobs at the same time. I feel like that could mesh nicely with the effort to cool cities by turning rooftops into growing spaces.

Was just talking to someone else about desalination, and he just educated me on salt/brine not being the only issues. Apparently the cleaning chemicals used in the process are part of the disposal problem, but also by products of those chemicals actually make it into the now 'fresh' water. Makes the water acidic which screws with some pipes and people. Did not know that.

There are vertical farming facilities in Brooklyn, and they have started in Jersey City - in fact at a public housing facility. But we are all communists surrounded by constant crime so I'm not sure how it will work.

 
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uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,604
2,981
136
How? Tell me, hypothetically, if you had infinite power today, how would you pull 1.5T tons of co2 out of the atmosphere within say, 100 years.
Infinite power? Electrolyze water to create hydroxide and bubble air through it to trap carbonate.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
29,183
41,267
136
There are vertical farming facilities in Brooklyn, and they have started in Jersey City - in fact at a public housing facility. But we are all communists surrounded by constant crime so I'm not sure how it will work.


Freaking awesome on so many levels, Aerofarms seems to have it really dialed in. We need this in every town and city.


"The produce from the vertical farm — city officials have said their will be 10 “farms” across the city — will provide local residents with more healthy options. The sites will grow 19,000 pounds of vegetables annually using water mist and minimal electricity."

Year round growing with no bugs or pathogens to worry about. Love it. Any idea what LEDs they use?


"The food will be free to the public with the only requirement that residents participate in five healthy eating workshops and agree to quarterly health screening, officials said earlier this year."


Yep, clearly you all are a bunch of criminals and communists, sorry about that.
 
Reactions: Pohemi

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,680
14,210
146
Infinite power? Electrolyze water to create hydroxide and bubble air through it to trap carbonate.
Is that scalable? Can facilities be built to draw millions or more tons/year, and are there any obscure components required like vanadium anodes or bullshit like that?
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,853
984
126
Only scientifically understood way for such a small component to produce so much energy is with anti-matter. If we had anti-matter, we could actually do it pretty easily. It's a good thing we don't though, because one wrong move and it's adios muchachos for humanity, the planet, and possibly the entire solar system. Yet we're continuing to find ways to either efficiently manufacture it or find it out there in the solar system!
There are fusion projects that are looking at small reactors. I recall seeing a Youtube channel cover one such project and theirs woud fit in a trailer. One of the use cases was using it for emergency power after a natural disaster. This version would fire two fuel pellets at each other to achieve fusion. Not sure how feasible it was though.

People would be amazed how many problems are fairly easily solved if you start with 'assume infinite power'.
Once you start using too much though, you're dumping waste heat into the environment at higher rates than you are removing with CO2.

EDIT: Think it was these guys.
 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,512
11,146
136
Supposedly the perfect bomb material isn't it? And it would be simple, no fuses or anything, just, idk, drop it?

Talk about a worrying future weapons test, I hope no one ever goes there.
Way more efficient and less exotic ways for making earth killers.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
97,313
16,389
126
There are fusion projects that are looking at small reactors. I recall seeing a Youtube channel cover one such project and theirs woud fit in a trailer. One of the use cases was using it for emergency power after a natural disaster. This version would fire two fuel pellets at each other to achieve fusion. Not sure how feasible it was though.


Once you start using too much though, you're dumping waste heat into the environment at higher rates than you are removing with CO2.

EDIT: Think it was these guys.

Waste heat can drive secondary power generation cycle.
 
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