First time landlord tax woes

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Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
Hey I've got an idea, why don't you ask the IRS and be sure, instead of 3rd parties?

Because the IRS is staffed mostly by idiots just like any other government agency.

About 20 years ago I had some confusing tax issues due to a family trust. The instructions were ambiguous so I called the IRS help line. The first person I talked to had an answer that did not make any sense if I was reading the instructions logically. The second person at the IRS had a completely different answer, that also was different that the conclusion I had come to on my own. I called a third time and after getting a third completely different answer I went with what I had determined on my own before calling. Considering I never got anything in the mail from the IRS stating I had done my taxes incorrectly I have to assume I was right or right enough.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,622
2,880
136
Because the IRS is staffed mostly by idiots just like any other government agency.

About 20 years ago I had some confusing tax issues due to a family trust. The instructions were ambiguous so I called the IRS help line. The first person I talked to had an answer that did not make any sense if I was reading the instructions logically. The second person at the IRS had a completely different answer, that also was different that the conclusion I had come to on my own. I called a third time and after getting a third completely different answer I went with what I had determined on my own before calling. Considering I never got anything in the mail from the IRS stating I had done my taxes incorrectly I have to assume I was right or right enough.
You could always ask for an official advisory opinion.

Wow. I googled my scenario, and half the people say no I do not have to pay taxes because a rental property is considered a business, and if the rent paid = mortgage costs, then it's a wash and neither a profit or loss, and therefore, doesn't have to be reported as income.

Others say yes, you have to pay taxes.

Others say no if its a family member since it can be considered a tax free gift (up to $12,000 or so). In my case it is a family member renting, so now I'm really confused. And the rent is exactly $12,000 a year.

I will just go to an income tax guy this year and let them figure out the mess, and I'll go by their recommendations.

Wow, your attorney has no clue.

I assume you do not make a living owning rental property, since this is rented to a family member for the cost of the mortgage. Reporting the property would be done on Schedule E.

Publication 527 defines rental income as "any payment you receive for the use or occupation of property." Since the loan is in your name the IRS considers the payment of the loan on your behalf to be constructive receipt of the income, regardless of whether you actually receive it or not.

Schedule E allows you to deduct the mortgage interest on the loan as well as the depreciation of the property. You are not allowed to deduct the principal and interest payment on the loan. Your attorney is backwards on what you can do.

If you do not rent properties for a living to qualify as a real estate dealer you cannot file on Schedule C so there is no way you could try to claim the P&I payment on the loan as a "business expense".

Gift tax liability lies with the giver, not the recipient. In general any one person can receive up to $13,000 (for 2011) in gifts from any other person before the giver begins to incur gift tax liability. Gift tax is due not only on cash gifts but also on property and potentially services valued at fair market value. Giving a non-immediate family member a place to live outside of your primary residence could be considered income in the FMV of the rent.

In your case you could say that the $1,000/mo value of the house is a gift and the $1,000/mo cash received is a separate gift. Since both values are under the annual threshold no gift tax would be owed. The problem is that in order for the IRS to consider it a gift the recipient must not reciprocate with something of equal value. In other words, since you provide housing worth $1,000 and the family member provides $1,000 cash neither is considered a gift.

You might be able to continue on not claiming it as proper income on the Schedule E, and you might never get caught, but if you get audited your nuts will be in a vise.
 
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TheBloodguard

Senior member
Nov 5, 2002
399
0
0
go get a CPA

turbotax is like $80 plus filing plus state plus the audit protection and other services. CPA is the same price

Went to a CPA for the first time last year because I started to rent out my house. Nothing really complicated tax wise and the CPA cost was $300. I called another place and it was roughly the same price but maybe CA is higher or I need to check out a few more places.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Welcome to the real world.

Sounds like you need more deductions. Get a magnetic sign for your truck/car, record your mileage, the deduct what you can in tires, gas and maintenance.


It's not a business, it's a rental property. Your suggestion won't work.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
I've already talked to a Lawyer, and they said it was not income if I am not in control of the money. If I can use that money at any point (cash a check, money order, or something hits my bank account) and use it on hookers, then yes, its income. If it's not going through my possession, then it is not income. I talked about this scenario specifically. He said the only issue is if I claim the mortgage interest on my taxes, I cannot do that, as I did not pay the mortgage. And I haven't.

But maybe I'll get a second opinion because you're scaring me.

As a tax CPA I can confirm that your lawyer is incorrect.

And as a poster above mentioned, the OP needs to deduct for depreciation.

Fern
 

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,326
68
91
I decided to go to a tax professional this year, as my taxes are just getting too complicated and I am at the point in my life where my time and stress is worth more than $250 (his fee).
Hopefully he does all the depreciation correctly.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
I decided to go to a tax professional this year, as my taxes are just getting too complicated and I am at the point in my life where my time and stress is worth more than $250 (his fee).
Hopefully he does all the depreciation correctly.

With your situation, probably the best money you'll ever spend. Once other income comes into play, it's best to hire a professional.
 

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,326
68
91
Turbo Tax business is $80 + $35 for state.
I am paying $250 for everything, the difference being $135 to not have to worry about jack.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Turbo Tax business is $80 + $35 for state.
I am paying $250 for everything, the difference being $135 to not have to worry about jack.

Liked Said. Best money you'll ever spend.

Your time, hastle and stress is money.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
As a tax CPA I can confirm that your lawyer is incorrect.

And as a poster above mentioned, the OP needs to deduct for depreciation.

Fern

QFT, seriously I think 90% of the time when people say they talked to a lawyer (esp. when they meant "their family's" lawyer when all combined probably gross $50k) are just story-telling.

Collecting rent is always income. However; you can write off expenses to reduce the tax burden of that income.
 

GuitarDaddy

Lifer
Nov 9, 2004
11,465
1
0
Wow. I googled my scenario, and half the people say no I do not have to pay taxes because a rental property is considered a business, and if the rent paid = mortgage costs, then it's a wash and neither a profit or loss, and therefore, doesn't have to be reported as income.

Others say yes, you have to pay taxes.

Others say no if its a family member since it can be considered a tax free gift (up to $12,000 or so). In my case it is a family member renting, so now I'm really confused. And the rent is exactly $12,000 a year.

I will just go to an income tax guy this year and let them figure out the mess, and I'll go by their recommendations.



You most definately owe taxes on the 12k minus your legitimate deductions of interest, depreciation, etc....

The fact that your renter pays your mortgage payment doesn't change the fact that you own the house and you are getting the benifit of him paying down the mortgage, therefore it IS income to you.

The tax free gift idea is bogus, family member or not. It is true that any one person can gift another(family or not) up to 12k per year with no taxes owed, but the fact that your renter is getting value(a place to live) in return for his 12k it doesn't qualify as a gift.

Just because a lawyer or CPA gives you advice, or claims to use a certain tactic doesn't make it legit. They may even employ this tactic and get away with it for awhile
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,622
2,880
136
I decided to go to a tax professional this year, as my taxes are just getting too complicated and I am at the point in my life where my time and stress is worth more than $250 (his fee).
Hopefully he does all the depreciation correctly.

If he follows the MACRS charts it'll be easy.
 
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