First watercooling project

DyslexicHobo

Senior member
Jul 20, 2004
706
1
81
So I just purchased a Thermaltake Big Water 745 cooling setup from someone on the BST forum here on AT.

It came in great shape, and I'm really excited to get it up and running.

I have a HUGE case. It's the Rocketfish case (rebranded Lian Li), so I'd like to keep everything as internal as possible for the easiest transportation when I go to LANs.

I'm going to be doing some modifications to my case--just a couple screw holes and a few fan holes and I'm good. I'd just like to know if my loop is set up well.

Here's how it's going to be: http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4656/watercool.jpg


Any tips/advice is appreciated. Thanks
 

Billb2

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2005
3,035
70
86
You'll want the rez to be above the pump.
That will keep the pump from running dry when you first fill the system.
 

DyslexicHobo

Senior member
Jul 20, 2004
706
1
81
The pump and reservior will be level with each other. I put them like that in the picture just so you can see the direction of the flow.
 

Billb2

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2005
3,035
70
86
Originally posted by: DyslexicHobo
The pump and reservior will be level with each other. I put them like that in the picture just so you can see the direction of the flow.
As I said, the outlet of the rez should be above the inlet of the pump.

 

Beanie46

Senior member
Feb 16, 2009
527
0
0
Originally posted by: DyslexicHobo

Any tips/advice is appreciated. Thanks



In all truthfullness and complete honesty, sell it and build a proper watercooling setup.

Your problems......woefully inadequate/weak pump, horribly designed radiators that are so poorly designed, they have little cooling capacity, mixed metals in your system which can and does lead to galvanic corrosion problems, to head off galvanic corrosion problems you have to use heavy glycol anit-freeze mixtures which greatly lessens the cooling capacity of your coolant (distilled water is absolute best!), poorly designed cpu cooling block that is outclassed by even the oldest and cheapest D-Tek, Swiftech, Danger Den, et al cpu block.

Best hope.....sell it, spend some time on XS's watercooling forum reading and learning, then get into the hobby as an informed hobbyist.

 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,894
3,247
126
:X

beanie said what i wanted to say. :X

in short, i wouldnt trust thermaltake h2o products over an air sink + fan.
 

DyslexicHobo

Senior member
Jul 20, 2004
706
1
81
Well I really only got into watercooling because of the price I got this for. I got everything I needed for under $40, which is about 1/5th of what I'd pay for a good cooling setup, and about $10 cheaper than what I paid for my 9700CNPS.

I'm going to use this water cooling kit. It will obviously get me better temps than my current heatsink no matter how outdated the CPU block technology. From what I've read, I'm not taking a huge risk as far as leaks. It seems that the chance of leaking is based more on my competence in correctly fastening my connections rather than the quality of the parts. Also, I'm pretty sure all the parts are copper except the barbs (and a little bit of antifreeze should slow galvanic corrosion so that I won't need to worry about it for decades).

I'm sorry, but you have not convinced me out of my setup. Thanks the input though.

But as far as my setup, I know I should have a T-line for draining near the bottom of things. I'll make sure to add that in. Is there any specific place in my setup where the pump should be? Top, bottom, etc?

Also, it's best to have it go CPU -> rad -> GPU -> rad -> etc rather than CPU -> GPU -> rad -> rad, correct? Also, I'm not sure I understand why the radiator needs to be above the pump. Wouldn't having them level be okay?

Thanks for the help.
 

Beanie46

Senior member
Feb 16, 2009
527
0
0
Really, a TRUE air cooler WILL outclass this Thermaltake system, no doubt about that. Even a midrange water cooling system is hard pressed to outdo a good air cooler these days, so your thinking that this POS Thermaltake system is better than a TRUE, or any other top flight air cooler is just misplaced hope.

As long time water cooling users have said, friends don't let friends use Thermaltake. Their pumps leak, their parts underperform almost anything else on the market, their tubing is horrid, stiff, and cloud too easily, their fittings are junk.

I beg you to go to XS and ask around........don't take my word for it, ask Aigo, Darth Beavis, Waterlogged, Vapor, NaeKuh (Aigo on XS), skinnee, and a host of others. All will repeat the posts above from me and aigo........

But to each his own.....sometimes one must learn from making his own mistakes instead of learning from the wisdom of others.
 

DyslexicHobo

Senior member
Jul 20, 2004
706
1
81
Alright, so I did some digging and I did find some complaints of pump leaks. It would be very unfortunate to have this happen to me, but if it does, then worst case scenario I have some water on my floor (with my setup, my pump will not be close to any components as seen in my pic). I have temperature monitoring programs running even on air cooling due to my OC, and it will shut off if anything dangerous happens.

I also did some research on how cooling would be compared to an air cooling system. The only results that I could find that have any interest to me are in this article. It compares the TT Big Water SE to a Zalman CNPS 9500LED. I have the 9700LED, a slight upgrade from the 9500. The water system averaged 4-5C lower than the air cooling, which is a noticeable improvement for me.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I did buy some Tygon tubing. When I got the kit, it was used and all the tubing was already cut. Unfortunately I didn't get the R-3606 like I wanted. I got the SH-50, which I've read is a bit more rigid but will hopefully still bend the way I want and seal tightly.

Honestly bottom line: this system will be an improvement to my current setup and cost me less than what I paid for my air cooling. Hopefully it will reduce the noise level as well.

Edit: Oh, and I just lapped my CPU and GPU block tonight. It's not quite a mirror finish, but it's better than how it came. I'm not sure if that's a reason why people don't like TT; I was kind of disappointed in how rough the finish was. When I got my Zalman heatsink I remember it was clear as a mirror.
 

yh125d

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2006
6,886
0
76
A good air setup would likely be more than 4-5c lower than the 9500 in that review, without the hassle of a water setup. Think like a TRUE or Sunbeam CCF
 

Beanie46

Senior member
Feb 16, 2009
527
0
0
I'm glad you found a 3 year old review using an outdated test method. If you'd done a little further research on that website, you'd have found that XBit Labs abandoned their hot plate test method for a "real world" testing method.

You can find their "new" test method, an Asus P6T motherboard, a Core i7 920 cpu, etc., etc., here:
Current XBit Labs cpu cooler testing setup.

As for not finding problems with the Tt BigWater systems, typical complaints have included cracking cpu blocks in the acrylic top, cracking acrylic reservoirs, pump leaks and premature failures, radiators leaking and having horrible cooling, to name a very few. Just have to Google Thermaltake BigWater failures to find thousands and thousands of hits for them.

For the radiator, Tt chose to use what is known as a condensor style radiator design....round tubes making 180 degree turns over and over, running through aluminum fins.

Unfortunately, that style of radiator is never used by any other radiator manufacturer due to its inherent problems in cooling.....namely laminar flow problems. This is the problem fluid has when moving through any tube, etc. Essentially, the outer layer of the fluid, the layer in contact with the walls of the tube, moves slower than the inner core layer of the fluid. So flow decreases. Next, this slower moving fluid does cool well, but insulates the faster moving core fluid from ever cooling properly within the radiator's tube. So performance is terrible and on and on.

A picture representation of what happens inside a round tube vs. a flat tube radiator:

Picture of flat vs. round tube cooling in radiators.

From a watercooling guide by MaxxRacer on XtremeSystems watercooling forum:

"Several years ago, condenser style radiators, which are used for refrigeration systems, were popular when we did not know better. Since then, they have lost their popularity, but they still seem to be alive and kicking in certain parts of Europe due to incredibly strong misinformation on the part of manufactures.

"To avoid these condenser style radiators we need to know a bit more about them. First off, they can easily be spotted by the numerous 180 degree bends of tubing on both ends. Secondly, you can spot them by their characteristic round tubes. The last common characteristic is their incredibly high fin density which is designed for VERY powerful fans. You can see the numerous 180 degree turns on it, which creates an incredible amount of restriction for the pump leading to VERY low flowrates. What you can also notice is the round tubes. The round tubes provide less than adequate cooling efficiency because less of the water is close to the walls of the tube, unlike the flat tube radiators."


And while your Zalman 9700LED was derived from a just OK cooler design, that design cannot compete with good air cooling today. In that test linked above, done 4 months ago, a Zalman 9900LED was included in the cooler comparisons.....and it finished dead last in performance, so your 9700 would do even worse. I should hope your Tt cooler would do better.

As an aside, when you finally get your system set up, let us know where your idle and load temps get to.

For mine, which is a very low-mid range watercooling setup (Q9550 cpu @ 3.6GHz on 1.2V Vcore), Asus Maximus Formula X38 motherboard, 4GB Mushkin Redline RAM, 4870 1GB video card), I manage 27-29C idle temps. Load temps under OCCT 3.0.1 in medium test for 1 hour produced temps in mid-to-upper 40's.

My cooling system consists of a Watercool HK 3.0 cpu cooler, DDC2 pump, EK S-Max NB block, Feser X-Changer 240 radiator, Swiftech Micro-Reservoir, 3/8" x 5/8" tubing.

Some pics of my temps during a play-around testing session with my Q9550 just after I got my HK 3.0 cpu block.....cpu was at 3.65GHz @ 1.22V:

CPU core #1.

CPU core #2.

CPU core #3.

CPU core #4.

CPU VCore.


Subsequently to that, I upped the cpu's speed using that VCore voltage to 4.0GHZ, but I just didn't like the load temps for a 24/7 use. So, instead I dropped the VCore down to 1.18V, and the cpu is humming along nicely at 3.7GHz.....idles at 27-29C and never sees over 50C, unless my house gets warmer than 75F.

Good luck with your build.....you're going to need it.


 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,944
2,175
126
Originally posted by: DyslexicHobo
Alright, so I did some digging and I did find some complaints of pump leaks. It would be very unfortunate to have this happen to me, but if it does, then worst case scenario I have some water on my floor (with my setup, my pump will not be close to any components as seen in my pic). I have temperature monitoring programs running even on air cooling due to my OC, and it will shut off if anything dangerous happens.

I'd be a bit wary of acrylic top blocks. My first WC venture involved a kit from Gigabyte and the acrylic top started cracking from where the screws tightened the top onto the copper base. Thankfully I caught it in time and ditched it in favour of a custom kit.

I'd stick with aircooling until you can spend enough to get a decent setup.
 

DyslexicHobo

Senior member
Jul 20, 2004
706
1
81
Beanie, I honestly do appreciate your input on my setup. I didn't realize how low-end TT was when it came to water-cooling.

I definitely see where you're coming from recommending me to stay away from their system, but I still feel that it would be a good experience for me to use it. The chances of it breaking are low (albeit high compared to other brands) and even if it fries everything, my hardware is old enough that the cost of replacing it would be cheaper than the cost of a nice water cooling system.

The good thing about this is that I can slowly upgrade my parts. I think the first thing I'll do (depending on the performance) is upgrade my large radiator to a heater core. I have a junkyard nearby and I think it'd be cool to hunt through the cars to find myself a radiator for my water cooling setup. It definitely adds some pride when saying "I'm using a heater core from an '89 Camaro in my computer's water cooling system".

I need to do some case modding before I'm able to install it, so it will be a few days (maybe a week+ depending on my work schedule) before I can post any temps. I'm currently at about 56C under load (E6400@3.33GHz 1.28v stock 2.13GHz) with my CNPS9700 air cooler. Orthos/Prime stable over 24h. I love these C2Ds!
 

daw123

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2008
2,593
0
0
Originally posted by: DyslexicHobo
Beanie, I honestly do appreciate your input on my setup. I didn't realize how low-end TT was when it came to water-cooling.

I definitely see where you're coming from recommending me to stay away from their system, but I still feel that it would be a good experience for me to use it. The chances of it breaking are low (albeit high compared to other brands) and even if it fries everything, my hardware is old enough that the cost of replacing it would be cheaper than the cost of a nice water cooling system.

The good thing about this is that I can slowly upgrade my parts. I think the first thing I'll do (depending on the performance) is upgrade my large radiator to a heater core. I have a junkyard nearby and I think it'd be cool to hunt through the cars to find myself a radiator for my water cooling setup. It definitely adds some pride when saying "I'm using a heater core from an '89 Camaro in my computer's water cooling system".

I need to do some case modding before I'm able to install it, so it will be a few days (maybe a week+ depending on my work schedule) before I can post any temps. I'm currently at about 56C under load (E6400@3.33GHz 1.28v stock 2.13GHz) with my CNPS9700 air cooler. Orthos/Prime stable over 24h. I love these C2Ds!

Can you use car radiators in a water cooling system? Aren't they steel? If so, than an obvious problem that I can see is that they rust (and do you want bits of rust being pumped around your loop).
 

Beanie46

Senior member
Feb 16, 2009
527
0
0
Originally posted by: daw123


Can you use car radiators in a water cooling system? Aren't they steel? If so, than an obvious problem that I can see is that they rust (and do you want bits of rust being pumped around your loop).


Actually, most car radiators these days are aluminum. But that is a problem given that most vehicles use engine blocks of steel and all the other metals the coolant contacts. Think galvanic corrosion. So, that's one reason why a 50/50 mix of antifreeze is used, not to mention preventing freezing and raising the boiling point of the coolant. But cars work under tremendous air flow parameters and equally high coolant flows, much more than any computer water cooling setup will ever see.
 
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